Could Colt, Kimber, EB and others manufacture a $400 gun?

[Guest TankerHC]

Obviously those three together equate to 1911's. But could any American manufacturer, manufacture an American made Firearm equal to their best US Made firearms for the price of say, a Rock Island or manufacture any US made firearm at the cost of its overseas equivalent? 

 

So why does a Henry Lever Action cost so much? $500 for a Golden Boy. I was listening to the repeat (Think it was a repeat) of an interview with Wilkow on NRA Radio this morning, one of the several manufacturers he had on was the CEO of Henry. Disregarding the boutique guns, craftsmanship disparities (Which do drive up cost) and all the rest, according to the CEO, and most already know this but it was interesting to hear a major gun manufacturer point it out the way he did, the Chinese are dumping steel all over the world at a loss then manipulating their currency to make it look like a profit. They (Foreign manufacturers) are nearly free of US Import regulation and have none of the numerous US Government manufacturing regulations that forces the cost up of US products. 

 

Last week I read an article that stated effective today, 40,000 new laws goes into effect at the State and Federal level nationwide, not all concern manufacturing, but a lot of them do. (Of course I didn't read 40,000 new laws, but some of them mentioned were fairly ridiculous, ridiculous because they are completely unnecessary), then there are the new regulations (Look them up) that Obama will be imposing through the EPA. (Certain Congressman claiming that once again, in the attack on the Coal industry, he is bypassing Congressional oversight). 

 

40,000 new laws, even if a lot of them were to be changes to old laws, is still a LOT of laws. 

 

On the firearms I think the cost of Rock Islands will soon go much higher. Unless they have worked something out on exemptions from Government regulations (Which would surprise me since the Government likes taking money and spending it), when they open that R&D and Manufacturing facility in Parumph, NV soon, and it becomes Armscors anchor plant, which according to Martin Tuosan on Armscors FB page, it will, I dont see how they can sell guns at current prices when Colt and Henry cannot. I love Armscor guns, but would not pay the price for an Armscor gun for the similar price of a Colt. If I could own a bunch of EB's I would, but I cant so in my affordable position, Armscor guns are great, but if I have to pay Colt prices, Ill buy a Colt. Hopefully they can keep prices down. But if they can, how do they manufacture a US made 1911 or bolt gun at current prices and how can original US manufacturers compete?

[Sam1]

could they, yes.. but why would they when people are paying double that for the same thing now?

[Guest TankerHC]

could they, yes.. but why would they when people are paying double that for the same thing now?

 

 

If they can keep prices down, then that market works both ways. People will buy low cost US manufactured Armscor guns, that may force Colt and others to come out with a "Value" line or lower prices on basic models. It could possibly force more competitiveness in US made lower cost firearms, but I doubt it. With so many regulations I just don't see how Armscor can keep prices low (As low as they are now) and meet regulatory requirements.  If they do, then absolutely I would  buy US Made Armscor guns, if not, the price for a Colt to me still equals a Colt, or Kimber. And I will still shoot Philippine made Armscor guns, If not, wonder what that will do to the price of overseas manufactured guns?

[DaveS]

Except I refuse to pay that for those brand names. I carry a 1911 Officer's model 45 made by high standard. I have a friend who carries a Kimber 1911. He wants to trade me. No thanks! I wouldn't pay for a kimber at any price, and damn sure not the one he has that he paid $1,200 for!

 

Dave

[Guest TankerHC]

Except I refuse to pay that for those brand names. I carry a 1911 Officer's model 45 made by high standard. I have a friend who carries a Kimber 1911. He wants to trade me. No thanks! I wouldn't pay for a kimber at any price, and damn sure not the one he has that he paid $1,200 for!

 

Dave

 

My nightstand is a Rock GI. All others stay in the safe unless I am going to the range. Same with my cousin, his nightstand (Under bed) is a Rock GI, and he has quite a few high end 1911's.  

[peejman]

They could produce for less cost, but it would take a big investment. Highly automated processes would minimize labor, which is typically the biggest expense. But that kind of equipment isn't cheap.

I always laugh at the Les Baer commercial that talks about "hand fit tolerances that no CNC machine can match"... which is utter nonsense. Just an excuse to justify their prices.

[DaveS]

My nightstand is a Rock GI. All others stay in the safe unless I am going to the range. Same with my cousin, his nightstand (Under bed) is a Rock GI, and he has quite a few high end 1911's.  

Not a darn thing wrong with Rock. But I'm surely not impressed with my friends Kimber. You're buying name. If they want to send me one for free and allow me to test it, I may have a different opinion. But for $1200.00, they suck!

 

Dave

[Garufa]

The only way an American manufacturer could produce a steel 1911 for $400 is if it was all MIM, including the frame.  Even then it's doubtful.

[Sam1]

Not a darn thing wrong with Rock. But I'm surely not impressed with my friends Kimber. You're buying name. If they want to send me one for free and allow me to test it, I may have a different opinion. But for $1200.00, they suck!

 

Dave

 

If you make your way down to the big Nashville often, you're more than welcome to give my old trusty $500 fatboy 1911 a whirl... Granted it's been reworked by Calhoun (and is there again as we speak getting tweaked a bit more), that thing is the best shooting 1911 I've ever touched and even with all of the custom work and replacement parts, it still comes under what a Kimber will cost you off the shelf.

 

Just remember it ain't going home with ya ;)

[DaveS]

If you make your way down to the big Nashville often, you're more than welcome to give my old trusty $500 fatboy 1911 a whirl... Granted it's been reworked by Calhoun (and is there again as we speak getting tweaked a bit more), that thing is the best shooting 1911 I've ever touched and even with all of the custom work and replacement parts, it still comes under what a Kimber will cost you off the shelf.

 

Just remember it ain't going home with ya ;)

I had some work done to mine as well. Mostly with Wilson Combat parts. It is SWEET. I've let a few people at the range shoot it and they couldn't believe it was made by High Standard. My 17 year old daughter has been shooting it since she was 14 and she is absolutely awesome with it!

 

Dave

[tnhawk]

I purchased my first Rock Island pistol a few months ago.  It doesn't have the features of my Kimber, Colt or Wilson Combat pistols.  However it is a well built reliable pistol and is more accurate than me.  As a work horse, not a show piece, it will likely see a great deal of range and carry time.  I hope to acquire additional pistols, from Rock island, Colt and Wilson Combat. 

[Sam1]

I had some work done to mine as well. Mostly with Wilson Combat parts. It is SWEET. I've let a few people at the range shoot it and they couldn't believe it was made by High Standard. My 17 year old daughter has been shooting it since she was 14 and she is absolutely awesome with it!

Dave

This was the first one I've had anything outside of a trigger job done to and it made such a difference that the brand of a pistol isn't even important to me anymore because I understand what they can be with some work and parts.

[Guest TresOsos]

I don't know if Kimber or Colt  or EB (Ed Brown) could make a $400 1911, but why would they.

I don't know about Kimber and Colt but EB can sell every one he can build at the moment.

Les Baer, Guncrafter Industries, Wilson Combat, Nighthawk, Ed Brown and bunch of independent smiths

are selling every one they can make at the moment and there is a large back order with a loing waiting period.

That tells you there is demand for high quality custom and semi-custom 1911's, why would they want  to build a $400 1911.

 

When the 1911 was originally made back in the early 1900's Technology was expensive and labor was cheap.

Today it is just the opposite in the US, your getting your RI's cheap due to cheap Chinese steel and cheap Philipino labor.

 

If you don't want to pay the price of admission into the higher end guns thats fine.

But don't expect the higher end manufacturers to cheapen their Brand.

 

As for never buying a higher end gun like Baer or a Brown, your choice, but you don't know what your missing.

Edited January 3, 2014 by TresOsos

[gregintenn]

 

could any American manufacturer, manufacture an American made Firearm equal to their best US Made firearms for the price of say, a Rock Island or manufacture any US made firearm at the cost of its overseas equivalent?

No. As much as I like my Rock Island, it isn't  equivalent to a Colt, Ed Brown, Wilson Combat, etc. Could you produce a top shelf 1911 for $400? I didn't think so.

[StPatrick]

What Tres said. 

 

Additionally, the kind of specialized craftsmen a Wilson or Ed Brown require to churn out their guns are highly prized and very expensive.  Those are skilled tradesmen and don't come cheap.  As the intricacy of any manufactured object increases and tolerances tighten, cost increases exponentially, not linearly, as the men and machines required to produce that widget get more and more specialized, which adds cost, but the main drivers are time and waste - as a manufacturer pursues ever greater precision, the time required to build, measure, and rework all increase greatly, as does scrap.  This is also a self-reinforcing cycle.  As you cut time out of build / measure, you increase rework / scrap; in order to reduce waste, you must spend time on the front end.  Congratulations!  Your waste has been reduced, unfortunately your cycle time has increased and you are now producing 85% fewer widgets than you were.  Time is the driver of cost in a precision manufacturing environment.

 

A great way to illustrate this is the market for (mostly) US-built rifles.  Rem 700s, Savage 10s, etc. are available in the $300 range brand new, and will do everything a casual shooter or hunter would ever want.  Taking an off the rack rifle from 1-3 MOA to 0.5 MOA (yes, I know YOU get 0.4 MOA with your handloads, but this is an example of how cost v. manufacturing precision doesn't increase linearly and not an indictment of your rifle or your rounds) requires you to either spend the time doing multiple operations to various parts, if you don't replace them outright, or buying the time of someone with the years of expertise and knowledge required to get you there.  You can very easily take a Wally Rem 700 and end up left with nothing but the receiver and down a couple grand to get that 800-yard shooter.  After all that, consider that there is a good chance you've owned multiple cars or trucks that cost less than champion-level benchrest guns.

 

The same holds with most anything - buy a sports car, and you'll find the next 50 hp cost more than the last.  The law of diminishing returns has yet to be repealed.

 

RIA pistols are nice, based on the one I got to shoot.  I'm no pistolero and neither am I a 1911 guy, so it was good enough.  I liked it.  They do 90% of what a $3k gun can do, but (some percentage of) the people buying the Browns, Wilsons, and Nighthawks are doing so because they can tell a difference between 90% and 99% and are willing to pay a premium to get the widget that fits their desires.

 

Like I said, I'm not a 1911 guy, I have no MBA, I just work in a factory where we make things, so I've shared what I know.

 

When the 1911 was originally made back in the early 1900's Technology was expensive and labor was cheap.

Today it is just the opposite in the US, your getting your RI's cheap due to cheap Chinese steel and cheap Philipino labor.