Legality of buying a crate of Mosin's for a group

[TripleDigitRide]

I saw someone on another forum advertising the desire to buy a crate of Mosin's if he could get enough interest from other folks. Can someone legally buy a crate of Mosin's, with the intent to immediately distribute them? This is assuming the person buying the crate is not a licensed dealer.

[DaveTN]

Can someone legally buy a crate of Mosin's, with the intent to immediately distribute them?

No.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I think it depends on whether they are selling them or giving them away.

[TripleDigitRide]

It appears to me that this person would be exchanging money for the rifles. Whether or not any profit would be involved, I couldn't say. I'm not sure what benefits there are to buying a crate of them. Maybe there's a steep discount? Maybe he just wants a free crate? Edited December 29, 2013 by TripleDigitRide

[rugerla1]

If anyone was able to do it legally I'd love to get a couple. But I'd heard you can't buy with intention to sell. I guess ffl needed for that. Edited December 29, 2013 by rugerla1

[gregintenn]

I believe the law is all about intent. Ever read about "thought crimes"? :ugh:

 

In my opinion, if the guy bought a crate of Mosins, and decided to get rid of some because his wife was pizzed, it's legal. If he bought them with the intention to resale, it's illegal. How you prove or defend either in court is beyond me, but I wouldn't want to be in that position.

[monkeylizard]

I think it depends on whether they are selling them or giving them away.

Based on the OP, I'm guessing not. I doubt there'd be much difficulty in drumming up interest in free give-away Mosins.

 

 

One, two, a crate, a truckload...the rules don't change based on volume. A non-licensee may not purchase a firearm with the intent of reselling (engaging in the business), or on behalf of another person (straw purchase).

 

However, if a non-licensee buys a firearm with the intent of keeping it, but decides it's just not for them (or for a multitude of other reasons) and decides to sell it, that's OK. As Dolomite pointed out, it's also OK to buy as a gift for another person. That equally applies to a crate load of them. A person could buy a crate and give them away, or store them up ready to distribute them to friends and neighbors when the zombies arise. A person could also purchase a crate with the intent of keeping them, but upon arrival and inspection decide that they only want to keep X number of them (for lots of reasons, not least of which is gregintenn's nagging wife :) ) and sell the rest. The key is in the intent of the person at the time of purchase, which would normally be very difficult to determine and prove*. One crate might or might not trigger their spidey-senses but if a person moves 3, 4, 5, 10 crates, they're probably going to be looking at that person being engaged in the business of buying and selling.

 

This instance sounds like setting up a bunch of straw purchases. He's trying to line up committed buyers before making the purchase. He'd have all of the Mosins transferred on 4473s using his name, then sell them on to the others in that group buy at-cost.

 

 

 

*Having a thread on a public web-forum asking "who wants to go in on a crate of Mosins?" makes determining intent real easy for the BATFE.

Edited December 29, 2013 by monkeylizard

[TripleDigitRide]

There's zero doubt of his intent. I questioned the legality of such a transaction, and he responded that as long as he wasn't selling to a felon, it was perfectly legal. There hasn't been an indication that he's a licensed dealer, but I guess that's always a possibility. I have inquired about that.

[monkeylizard]

It's legal IF the company he's buying from sends the rifles to the receiving FFL as transfers for each buyer (like our recent TGO group-buy of CMT lowers). Each buyer would go to the FFL and do a transfer for their portion of the crate. But I have a hard time imagining someone selling by the crate being remotely interested in basically single-shipping 20 rifles and still offering the crate-level discount price.

[DaveTN]

There's zero doubt of his intent. I questioned the legality of such a transaction, and he responded that as long as he wasn't selling to a felon, it was perfectly legal. There hasn't been an indication that he's a licensed dealer, but I guess that's always a possibility. I have inquired about that.

He’s wrong. Whether he has a C&R or not.

This is argued all the time. We all see people that we know are dealing guns for profit. Are they busted? Not until something happens that they become a target. You can google the stories of what happens next. Confiscation of all firearms, tens of thousands in legal fees, jail time. Not really worth it.

The ATF puts no hard and fast numbers on it. Could be 5 could be 50 depending on the situation. They just make the arrest and let you deal with the court.

[LI0NSFAN]

What if he has a C&R, I know that the C&R is meant to be for collectors but could it be used in this situation?

 

Edit: Dave posted while I was posting. I guess even a C&R doesn't make it legal.

Edited December 29, 2013 by LI0NSFAN

[DaveTN]

What if he has a C&R, I know that the C&R is meant to be for collectors but could it be used in this situation?

No. I have a C&R and I can’t obtain firearms with the intent of transfer to others.

[Garufa]

These Mosin crate buys usually involve someone with a C&R, a license that is not intended for "distribution" purposes. IMHO, buying crate with a C&R then turning around and selling them all is pushing the envelope.

 

The only reason I can see for going the crate route is to simply drool over a box of 20 Mosins and hand-pick the ones you like best.  It's not really any cheaper as you only save maybe $10/rifle but then you also have to pay freight on a 250-300 lb crate.

[gregintenn]

The guy selling them would be in conflict of the law in the situation you described.

 

I don't know of any reason you'd be in violation of the law buying one from him. Maybe I'm wrong?

 

 

I don't know about you, but I'd have an unopened crate of Mosins for a coffee table, and ammo crates for end tables were I single.

Edited December 29, 2013 by gregintenn

[Garufa]

I don't know about you, but I'd have an unopened crate of Mosins for a coffee table, and ammo crates for end tables were I single.

 

I would too.  :lol:

[gregintenn]

I would too.  :lol:

In case of emergency, break wood!

[DaveTN]

I don't know of any reason you'd be in violation of the law buying one from him. Maybe I'm wrong?

You may not be, but the gun you bought would be seized as evidence if he was arrested.

[gregintenn]

You may not be, but the gun you bought would be seized as evidence if he was arrested.

Yeah....that would suck.

 

You wouldn't think the BATFE would waste the time and resources running around all over picking up $100 rifles, but hey! the ARE the government. Who knows?

Edited December 29, 2013 by gregintenn

[DaveTN]

Yeah....that would suck.
 
You wouldn't think the BATFE would waste the time and resources running around all over picking up $100 rifles, but hey! the ARE the government. Who knows?

Yes, but you are also talking about someone that is openly committing a federal firearms crime on the internet and making themselves easy pickings. Fish in a barrel.

[Oh Shoot]

Folks, "intent" to resell firearms has nothing to do with the federal legality of this, and making a profit doesn't necessarily enter into it either -- you can "intend" to resell or give away any firearm you buy at any time and even indeed resell it immediately for more than you paid and not necessarily be in violation

 

What's illegal is "engaging in the business" of selling firearms without a license, simple as that.

 

As per USC 18 922, "in the business" means:

 

"as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms"

 

And

 

"The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection"

 

So actually, it could be perfectly legal to buy a crate of Mosins and sell most of them off immediately, assuming you don't break any other federal or state laws doing it. The stickler is that of course it's not your call as to how BATF might see your transactions if you come under scrutiny. I have no idea what the burden of proof on BATF's part might have to be to convict you, but of course it could 'bout ruin your life proving innocence, too. And it certainly wouldn't be the wisest thing to send up flares on the public airwaves even if your intentions are well within the law. Some old adage about baiting the bear or somesuch, I believe.

 

Anyway, there's also no "intent" involved in what's generally referred to as "constructive possession": you have either made an NFA firearm or you have not, and it doesn't take actual assembly to have "made" one, and requires no "intent" to do so either. That's another area of firearms law where folks will do certain things with a collection of parts to show no "intent" to break the law -- which doesn't get you out from under in the least, push come to shove.

 

 

- OS

Edited December 30, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Guest TresOsos]

You can keep th Mosin's, I'd like to have the crate.

I wonder if you can just buy the Mosin crate.

Edited December 29, 2013 by TresOsos

[monkeylizard]

I stand corrected by what OS said.

 

But I stand by thinking this is more of setting up 19 straw purchases more than it is engaging in the business.

Edited December 30, 2013 by monkeylizard

[Oh Shoot]

I stand corrected by what OS said.

In further evidence of my statements there, I forgot to even mention that the attestation you sign on the 4473 itself includes:

"I further understand that the repetitive purchase of firearms for the purpose of resale for livelihood and profit without a Federal firearms license is a violation of law."
 

But I stand by thinking this is more of setting up 19 straw purchases more than it is engaging in the business.

 
Yeah, I think now you've pegged a more likely possible illegality in the endeavor.  Besides setting up all the sales in advance would be definitely throwing up a flag, the act of soliciting a commitment for bucks before the transaction may well fit under the circumstances of the straw purchase thang.

 

As a matter of fact, the example of someone giving you the money in advance for your doing a 4473 and then giving them the firearm is given on the instructions for the 4473 itself as an example of a illegal straw purchase, and no mention that the recipient must be prohibited from owning a firearm for it to be considered thus.

 

Now, in the case of these Mosins, if the guy has a C&R license, then he wouldn't necessarily be actually submitting a 4473 to receive them, so there's a gray area I suppose, as for one thing he would not be falsifying the 4473 by attesting that he is the actual purchaser on question 11a. On the other hand, the conditions specified on the 4473 seem as if they would still apply.

 

Obviously, one's best course would simply be to buy the dang things, and then sell them individually after the fact of receiving them. Assuming you could reasonably demonstrate that the money received really did go back into "enhancing your collection" you'd be perfectly legal doing that. But soliciting sales upfront is a whole 'nother can of worms, not to mention the sheer chutzpah of publicly showing yourself as an obvious nail begging to be hammered down. :)

 

- OS

[JayC]

Only way I could see this being completely legal is if the guy has a C&R, and is only going to allow other C&R's to go in with him on the crate...

 

Since it's perfectly legal for one C&R to transfer to another C&R.

[Garufa]

Only way I could see this being completely legal is if the guy has a C&R, and is only going to allow other C&R's to go in with him on the crate...

 

Since it's perfectly legal for one C&R to transfer to another C&R.

 

It's also perfectly legal for a C&R to transfer to a non-C&R.  ;)

 

It's kind of a grey area regarding this type of deal.  If you buy a crate only to cherry pick the best one out of 20 that truly is "furthering your collection".  If you sell 19 to others (license holders or not) at cost who are eligible to buy a firearm then there is no straw purchase or "dealing" going on.

 

If I were the license holder I'd stay away from it, one of those 19 who bought really has nothing to worry about.

 

As I previously mentioned it's really pushing the envelope.  If the C&R holder is audited he might just have some explaining to do.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Garufa