Regarding Obama's slip when he admitted Muslim faith...

[strickj]

This is just hilarious

[ame]

[/ame] Edited September 10, 2008 by strickj

[creeky]

Sounds to me like people without the measuring stick hit others the hardest with it.

The best thing I have drawn from this thread so far...

[Guest EasilyObsessed]

So what you guys are saying is, if I state a foundationaly principled belief that can be levied against my actions I am held without exception (perfection) to those values, but if I say i believe in nothing (or undefined sytem) I can do what ever I want and not be a hypocrite?

Sounds to me like people without the measuring stick hit others the hardest with it.

Please correct me if I am misunderstanding your statement, but are you saying that a person who does not have a religious belief system does not have values that they try to hold themselves to?

[DavidD]

So what you guys are saying is, if I state a foundationaly principled belief that can be levied against my actions I am held without exception (perfection) to those values, but if I say i believe in nothing (or undefined sytem) I can do what ever I want and not be a hypocrite?

Sounds to me like people without the measuring stick hit others the hardest with it.

Bak on topic. What a person believes is important because it gives "some" insight to their foundational principles. Muslim vs. Christian is a distinction in values that does make a difference. Not because of religion but because of the principles they are founded in. The fact someone follows closley or loosley those principles is rather irrelavant, because they will tend to default to them in the end. Just my .02

Well said Nate! I do agree with StrickJ in his observation "This country was not founded for Christians," but the You Tube link of the nut case is out of line. I'd post a "This is what I think of when it comes to homosexuals" You Tube Video but then I'd be labeled as "Bashing Gays" and it would be an obvious and un founded attack. I would probably then be banned and I really like it here so I'll keep my stereotypes to myself

......

Edited September 10, 2008 by DavidD

[Guest GUTTERbOY]

So what you guys are saying is, if I state a foundationaly principled belief that can be levied against my actions I am held without exception (perfection) to those values, but if I say i believe in nothing (or undefined sytem) I can do what ever I want and not be a hypocrite?

Sounds to me like people without the measuring stick hit others the hardest with it.

I do not hold anyone to "perfection," because perfection is an unattainable goal, regardless of whether we're talking about morality or precision machining or whatever. In fact, it's clear that even God does not expect perfection out of his children, or else he would not need to forgive them in the first place.

The folks I refer to in my post are the ones who habitually live outside the values of the religion they associate with. And, to a certain extent, this gets into a foundational religious debate, I think... just how far does forgiveness go? Can a man be baptized, and then continue to get into drunken brawls downtown every weekend while banging skanky hoes, just so long as he gets down on his knees at night and asks God for forgiveness?

Adhering to a set of values does not imply that one must never err; we are all prone to mistakes, as we are all only human. But there's a difference between occasional misjudgment and consistently and consciously going in your own direction.

[DavidD]

I do not hold anyone to "perfection," because perfection is an unattainable goal, regardless of whether we're talking about morality or precision machining or whatever. In fact, it's clear that even God does not expect perfection out of his children, or else he would not need to forgive them in the first place.

The folks I refer to in my post are the ones who habitually live outside the values of the religion they associate with. And, to a certain extent, this gets into a foundational religious debate, I think... just how far does forgiveness go? Can a man be baptized, and then continue to get into drunken brawls downtown every weekend while banging skanky hoes, just so long as he gets down on his knees at night and asks God for forgiveness?

Adhering to a set of values does not imply that one must never err; we are all prone to mistakes, as we are all only human. But there's a difference between occasional misjudgment and consistently and consciously going in your own direction.

I understand where you are coming from, and agree with you. Kind of like the mobsters in the movies, killing, selling drugs, getting prostitutes etc. then going to confession to ask for forgiveness. I believe a true Christian, or true believer in any religion will have a good heart and there in lies the difference. What you are describing is not a true believer in my eyes however who am I to judge? I am a Christian and I also sin but I assure you, not without guilt. We Christians do not have a monopoly on this guilt OR good hearts, nor are we to judge. We should however do our best to live by Gods law and his word EVERYDAY.

[Smith]

I do not hold anyone to "perfection," because perfection is an unattainable goal, regardless of whether we're talking about morality or precision machining or whatever. In fact, it's clear that even God does not expect perfection out of his children, or else he would not need to forgive them in the first place.

The folks I refer to in my post are the ones who habitually live outside the values of the religion they associate with. And, to a certain extent, this gets into a foundational religious debate, I think... just how far does forgiveness go? Can a man be baptized, and then continue to get into drunken brawls downtown every weekend while banging skanky hoes, just so long as he gets down on his knees at night and asks God for forgiveness?

Adhering to a set of values does not imply that one must never err; we are all prone to mistakes, as we are all only human. But there's a difference between occasional misjudgment and consistently and consciously going in your own direction.

I hear what you are saying and it is much of what I have to preach about weak in and weak out. Consistency in faith. Saying you believe something is one thing, what you do however is what you truly believe. I wasn't upset, it was just starting to get a little bashing for people not living up to their stated beliefs. I think the verse, "it is better to remove the plank from your own eye before you remove the splinter in your brothers." Is what everyone is saying. Most of what I respond with in religious topics is meant with ironic humor. Not to offend but to try and make us think and be consistent.

[Guest GUTTERbOY]

Fair enough.

Now, just to bring this back to what got me started in the first place: The point I was trying to make initially is that religious claims by politicians ought not to be taken at face value. I'd assert that they ought not to make a bit of difference at all, but I suspect that's a nigh-unattainable goal. In any case, the end result is that a candidate's self-applied label is far less useful than their actual life actions.

Of course, by and large, it's a lot easier to just look at labels and draw conclusions from there. It's a form of laziness, I think, but it's a very prominent human tendency. Hence why we might subconsciously reject any Democratic candidate out of hand, and embrace a Republican, without any substantive research into actual positions- or vice-versa for, say, the folks over at Democratic Underground.

Above all, I am an advocate of continually informing oneself and using that information to make objective decision, which I view as a polar opposite to, say, just checking to see if a politician has an R or a D next to their name.

I think I'm also an advocate for writing mini-essays on Internet forums.

[Guest mw.]

I do not hold anyone to "perfection," because perfection is an unattainable goal, regardless of whether we're talking about morality or precision machining or whatever. In fact, it's clear that even God does not expect perfection out of his children, or else he would not need to forgive them in the first place.

Except for Glock, right?

[TGO David]

Have I mentioned lately how much Religious Branding and Zealotry makes me want to puke?

There's a guy on another forum who has the quote "Religion is against my Relationship" in his signature. I like that.

[strickj]

Well said Nate! I do agree with StrickJ in his observation "This country was not founded for Christians," but the You Tube link of the nut case is out of line. I'd post a "This is what I think of when it comes to homosexuals" You Tube Video but then I'd be labeled as "Bashing Gays" and it would be an obvious and un founded attack. I would probably then be banned and I really like it here so I'll keep my stereotypes to myself

......

I do apologize if the video offended you,or anyone else. It was meant as an antithetical view.It seems that some have a painted picture of Christians being in whole the best,most trustworthy,etc,as a few have said in this thread.

That video is nothing more then to give an example of just how crazy some Christians can be,whilst their view of themselves,and other Christians are un-matched in greatness.

[towerclimber37]

there's something way too hinky with that guy....I say don't trust him. I'd vote for nancy pelosi before I voted for Obamadrama.

that's pretty harsh eh?

[Guest jackdog]

Hell as far as I can see if you vote for either one you are just another member of the herd. This whole election is bull****. These folks on both sides are owned by big bizz and or foreign money. Neither one gives a rats azz about the constitution or the republic of the united states of America. That includes every arse in congress as well as our supreme court politicians.