One ? about a HCP requirement caveat

[Guest canynracer]

You cannot expunge a DUI conviction in Tennessee. Short of an executive pardon, the only way to expunge a conviction is to go on diversion and the DUI statute does not allow that. The DUI law says that the offender must serve the minimum sentence, but under the diversion law a judgment of guilt is witheld and the person is not sentenced. Because of this conflict the DUI law wins. Perhaps your brother's case was in another state, or he got a companion charge to the DUI expunged, or the DUI was reduced to something like reckless driving or just dismissed.

Geeze dude, you sound like a freaking lawyer!!

[fizik]

Wait, I'm not at all saying i condone or excuse drinking and driving. I'm just saying I know the guy and don't see him as a drunk or irresponsible and trust him completely, so I don't see why he shouldn't be able to carry. I know this is one person and can't apply to everyone, I think the laws address that by blanketing it all. I totally agree with phantom about drinking and driving, I certainly think booze and guns are a bad mix. I just ain't so sure one DUI makes a habitual, dangerous drunk, ya know? Two, three, ten - that is habitual to me, not one that happened one night where a guy blows a .08 and still can function as a productive member of society. I know I sound bad, and am playing devil's advocate a bit, so take it with a grain or ten of salt .

Joined: Jul 2007

Where: Middle Tennessee

Posts: 221

Quote:

Originally Posted by fizik

..... ex ARMY Ranger .......

Sorry to Hijack...., but we use the term "Former Army Ranger."

This keeps down the confusion among the Spec Ops types who have to deal with an "EX" or two after several deployments.

ah, i'm not a military guy so I had no idea of that.

Sure, this happened to your "friend". :grin:

actually it was lol, a criminal charge and i lose my job, and won't get my permit, and lose other rights I don't want to lose, so I make the best choices I can.

DoubleafterSplit, Canynracer, and a couple others I think see what I'm trying to say. I've never been hit by a drunk driver or had a friend killed by one, so the emotional aspect is out the window. I'm more thinking about the practicalities of the law. As Doubleaftersplit pointed out, other crimes can be expunged but not DUI, and those folks can have permits. I'd much rather have a guy with one DUI carrying than aguy who has multiple assault or domestic violence charges that were 'taken care of'. JMHO

[Guest GT_Rat]

Wait, I'm not at all saying i condone or excuse drinking and driving. I'm just saying I know the guy and don't see him as a drunk or irresponsible and trust him completely, so I don't see why he shouldn't be able to carry. I know this is one person and can't apply to everyone, I think the laws address that by blanketing it all. I totally agree with phantom about drinking and driving, I certainly think booze and guns are a bad mix. I just ain't so sure one DUI makes a habitual, dangerous drunk, ya know? Two, three, ten - that is habitual to me, not one that happened one night where a guy blows a .08 and still can function as a productive member of society. I know I sound bad, and am playing devil's advocate a bit, so take it with a grain or ten of salt .

The state doesn't think you should lose that privilege for a one-off DUI either. But they are going to make you wait 5 years to PROVE that it was a one-off.

[Im Neero]

You cannot expunge a DUI conviction in Tennessee. Short of an executive pardon, the only way to expunge a conviction is to go on diversion and the DUI statute does not allow that. The DUI law says that the offender must serve the minimum sentence, but under the diversion law a judgment of guilt is witheld and the person is not sentenced. Because of this conflict the DUI law wins. Perhaps your brother's case was in another state, or he got a companion charge to the DUI expunged, or the DUI was reduced to something like reckless driving or just dismissed.

Gotya. He must have told me wrong.

[fizik]

The state doesn't think you should lose that privilege for a one-off DUI either. But they are going to make you wait 5 years to PROVE that it was a one-off.

Yeah, and after some thought, I understand that. I just don't get why people with assault and dom. violence charges can get tehm reduced/expunged and get a HCP. I see this crap happen five days a week at work where DUIs are considered worse than violent offenses for what I believe are political reasons.

edit: and it pisses me off more than it should, probably.

[Guest HexHead]

I agree that a DUI should prevent you from getting an HCP. The law says you shouldn't drink enough be get impaired and drive. It also says you can't drink a drop and carry. You've already disregarded the former, why should we trust to to follow the latter to the letter?

[wjh2657]

Fun things you have to give up after getting an HCP:

1. Drinking yourself silly (while carrying or anywhere near a handgun.)

2. Losing your temper and starting fights.

3. Swaggering into a redneck bar and telling the meanest guy in the bar that his mother knew every sailor in the Seventh Fleet.

4. Suffering delusions that you are Superman.

Above items will sound familiar to fellow Devil Dogs, it was a typical Olongapo City liberty!

A recent DUI makes the State think you haven't outgrown liberty call yet.

[Guest clsutton21]

I murdered someone with a pistol 6 years ago and I still got my HCP. I am so glad that it wasn't 5 years ago or I would have never gotten mine. That extra year that it took just secured my ability to act like a decent human.

Personally, I think one DUI should lose you your license for 5 years and if you drink and drive after that, lose it for life.

[Guest GimpyLeg]

One DUI means you got CAUGHT once. Doesn't mean you didn't get CAUGHT a hundred more times.

[DaveTN]

It doesn’t matter if it’s “fair†or not. And no, anyone of us could not get a DUI anytime. People that don’t drink and drive don’t have to worry about it.

People need to understand (young people especially) that it’s not about driving drunk; it’s about BAC. No one gives a rolling rip down a razor blade if you “think†you have a high tolerance to alcohol; all drunks think that.

If you get a DUI you have bigger problems than getting an HCP. You will not be considered for many good jobs, it can also knock you out of a security clearance.

I was Police Officer when the current Domestic Violence laws went into effect. Our discretion was taken away and basically if we went out on what had been referred to up to that point as a “family fight†was now something different. No complainant was required and an arrest was usually required. I know of many people that really didn’t deserve to be arrested for domestic violence; I have never seen an innocent person arrested for DUI.

You might see plea deals being made in a domestic violence case for a reduced charge or court supervision with a dismissal after treatment; but banning you from a carry permit on a domestic violence conviction is also Federal law. I don’t think the Feds would recognize an expungement. Just as the state of Tennessee won’t recognize an expungement for restoration of gun rights for convicted felons.

You guys can talk all you want about having records expunged and having your records cleared, but arrest records are never gone. If you apply to be a cop, or many other jobs that involve a security clearance, they will ask you if you have ever been arrested, the date, charge, location and the disposition. They will find the arrests and you will probably not be considered if you don’t disclose them.

You started this thread more than a year ago. Did your friend get his permit?

[Motasyco]

Drunk driving is no accident. It's intentional. If you're careless and stupid enough to get behind the wheel after drinking, you're showing that you have no regard for your safety or the safety of the public in general (my safety). If you have no regard for my safety, I don't want you anywhere around me with a gun. A vehicle and a gun can both be deadly weapons. And yes, I have known people that have been killed by a drunk driver. If you think a DUI is no big deal, you need to re-examine your values.

[Guest HexHead]

It doesn’t matter if it’s “fair†or not. And no, anyone of us could not get a DUI anytime. People that don’t drink and drive don’t have to worry about it.

People need to understand (young people especially) that it’s not about driving drunk; it’s about BAC. No one gives a rolling rip down a razor blade if you “think†you have a high tolerance to alcohol; all drunks think that.

If you get a DUI you have bigger problems than getting an HCP. You will not be considered for many good jobs, it can also knock you out of a security clearance.

I was Police Officer when the current Domestic Violence laws went into effect. Our discretion was taken away and basically if we went out on what had been referred to up to that point as a “family fight†was now something different. No complainant was required and an arrest was usually required. I know of many people that really didn’t deserve to be arrested for domestic violence; I have never seen an innocent person arrested for DUI.

Dave, I'd like to see it taken to the point where if the cops have to be called for a domestic violence call and any of the parties are drunk, they should be hauled off on something like a drunk & disorderly charge, whether the other person wants to press charges or not.

We as a society make too many excuses for drunken behavior. What's ironic is that these "excuses" are the reasons there's so much resistance by the tolerant liberals against carry in places that serve alcohol.

[LagerHead]

I think the 5-year period is too long. Yes a drunk driver excercises terrible judgment and they could have been a grave danger to others, but the same is true for many, many other misdemeanor crimes and those do not carry the five-year ban. For instance, a guy could beat up his pregnant wife and either 1) have the conviction expunged through the diversion process or 2) possibly have the charge dismissed by simply attending a few weeks of anger management classes (commonly done here in Memphis). That guy can then not only own a firearm but can also apply for a carry permit with no five-year waiting period. Compare them to the guy who drives a couple miles home after too much to drink on a deserted road late at night. Now is that fair? I don't know. I do think that it's a grossly inconsistent set of laws.

I mentioned expungment. You can get a lot of first-time offenses expunged. You could actually take someone's life and possibly have the conviction removed. It's true--Reckless Homicide, Criminally Negligent Homicide, Vehicular Homicide, and Voluntary Manslaughter. But you can't expunge a DUI, not in Tennessee at least, and not even a first offense. I suspect that MADD is behind a lot of this. They're pretty powerful lobbyers.

In my opinion, the problem is not with the DUI laws, but the other laws. I understand the necessity for several reasons to allow criminals to plea down - financial, time, etc. - but that's where the problem lies. The same thing can happen with DUI, plea down to reckless driving. Anyway, if you get a DUI and have to wait 5 years to get your HCP, don't look to me for sympathy.

Yeah, and after some thought, I understand that. I just don't get why people with assault and dom. violence charges can get tehm reduced/expunged and get a HCP. I see this crap happen five days a week at work where DUIs are considered worse than violent offenses for what I believe are political reasons.

edit: and it pisses me off more than it should, probably.

Yea, there definitely is a certain stigma attached to a DUI. But for good reason. Though I'm not sure that I see it personally as being worse than domestic violence. I have pretty big problem with some overgrown child beating on his wife too. Both are pretty big jackasses in my book.

One DUI means you got CAUGHT once. Doesn't mean you didn't get CAUGHT a hundred more times.

Amen to that. Very very few people get caught their first time. I can respect someone who honestly makes it his last though.

[Guest GoNavy]

Phantom6 is right on the money

[DaveTN]

If it does not show up with local, state, tbi, and fbi, how in the heck are they gonna find it? Explain that to me?

Because Police department and Military background checks aren’t just computer checks. They contact the local departments where you lived. Local arrests records are not removed just because you got an expungement. I have an arrest for having a gun in my car in Illinois. The charges were dismissed, but the arrest record is still there. If I did not disclose it; it would show up.

[DaveTN]

Right if it is dismissed it still shows up there. I got an expungement, and it removed it from TICS, TBI, FBI, Local sheriff, NCIC, etc.

That’s fine; and it may be true for your area. My point was that if someone does a real background check or a criminal history they will not only be able to know what the charges were but will have copies of the Police reports. You asked and I’m just answering based on my experience of doing background checks. Nothing is ever gone.

[DaveTN]

Then my attorney who has been practicing 40 years is a LIAR!

Were his lips moving?

Ask your attorney… if you apply for a job as a cop can they get information on your arrest? Let us know what he says.

[sparksjr]

Myself and two others had an incident from 2000 expunged. It didnt show up on our employment background checks...BUT...one of my friends works at ORNL and when he applied for his Q clearance it DID show up. Thankfully he fully disclosed it to them and when they interviewed me as a reference I also disclosed it to them. At the time of the incident, my lawyer also told my parents and I that having it expunged would keep it off my record. I am not saying he lied, but I dont feel he told us the WHOLE truth.

Anyway, we have grown up since then and I dont think that an irresponsible act from 10 years ago should be held against me...but I dont blame someone for making me take X amount of years to prove I am responsible...

FYI, my friend got his Q clearance...

[LawVol]

an order of expungement is supposed to restore you to your position before the arrest... like it never happened. BUT, the expungement statute says "public records" are to be destroyed, and that does not include arrest histories that aren't open to the public. I imagine the DOE has access to those confidential law enforcement records when checking someone out for Q clearance.

The statute is TCA 40-32-101

http://michie.lexisnexis.com/tennessee/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm&cp

[DaveTN]

an order of expungement is supposed to restore you to your position before the arrest... like it never happened.

Not with a conviction. That is clear in the statute you are linking.

Depends on what we are talking about. Expungement of an arrest that was dismissed or asking for expungement of a conviction.

[Bocephus]

What I don't understand is that if you are a holder of an HCP when you are convicted of DUI The HCP is suspended for the same length of time that your DL is. Once you DL is reinstated you can have your HCP reinstated.

[Oh Shoot]

What I don't understand is that if you are a holder of an HCP when you are convicted of DUI The HCP is suspended for the same length of time that your DL is. Once you DL is reinstated you can have your HCP reinstated.

Actually, ANY Class A misdemeanor conviction, HCP suspended for duration of the sentence, INCLUDING PROBATION.

So in the case of first time DUI, even though you usually only spend 48 hrs to 7 days in jail (depending on BAC), you are on probation for the rest of the 11 months, 29 days of the full possible sentence.

This just happens to coincide with the year's duration of license suspension, but your suspended DL is not a cause for revocation of the HCP, as you could have your DL suspended for other reasons and NOT lose your HCP at all.

However, I was unaware you could get your HCP back after that year in the case of DUI - I assumed you'd have to wait the 5 years?

But you're right in another sense though, and it's rather ironic, in that a previous conviction of most Class A misdemeanors, does NOT disqualify to receive a HCP in the first place, regardless of the time duration between the conviction and the HCP application.

- OS

Edited December 24, 2009 by OhShoot

[Guest tnmale46]

Drunk driving is no accident. It's intentional. If you're careless and stupid enough to get behind the wheel after drinking, you're showing that you have no regard for your safety or the safety of the public in general (my safety). If you have no regard for my safety, I don't want you anywhere around me with a gun. A vehicle and a gun can both be deadly weapons. And yes, I have known people that have been killed by a drunk driver. If you think a DUI is no big deal, you need to re-examine your values.

agree

[Bocephus]

Actually, ANY Class A misdemeanor conviction, HCP suspended for duration of the sentence, INCLUDING PROBATION.

So in the case of first time DUI, even though you usually only spend 48 hrs to 7 days in jail (depending on BAC), you are on probation for the rest of the 11 months, 29 days of the full possible sentence.

This just happens to coincide with the year's duration of license suspension, but your suspended DL is not a cause for revocation of the HCP, as you could have your DL suspended for other reasons and NOT lose your HCP at all.

However, I was unaware you could get your HCP back after that year in the case of DUI - I assumed you'd have to wait the 5 years or whatever it is?

But you're right in another sense though, and it's rather ironic, in that a previous conviction of most Class A misdemeanors, does NOT disqualify to receive a HCP in the first place, regardless of the time duration between the conviction and the HCP application.

- OS

Has the five year wait been added in the last ten years? I only remember the more than two in ten years being on the ap or renewal.

[Fallguy]

Has the five year wait been added in the last ten years? I only remember the more than two in ten years being on the ap or renewal.

AFAIK it has always been shall not have been convicted of 2 or more DUIs in the last 10 years and that none of them have been in the last 5.