One ? about a HCP requirement caveat

[fizik]

While I'm still waiting on my permit, I have a buddy who tried to apply and was denied. All because of a DUI within three years. I know that's the letter of the law, he's got to wait now for another nine or so months, but why? I'm trying to think of a reason DUI would disqualify one from having a HCP. I understand being a felon or domestic violence charges and such, but any one of us could get a DUI sometime, and that would be a mistake - a big one, i know, but a mistake nonetheless. If it's habitual I understand it being indicative of one drinking when they shouldn't, or doing things they shouldn't while drinking - and that extends to carrying a weapn. But a one time thing, that was a mistake or whatever the reason - getting a new medicine and not being used to side effects and being stopped can be a DUI. Hell, that doesn't mean somebody's a danger with a gun. Am I missing something here, or am I making sense? Or is it more of a problem than I'm aware of? I work in the court system, and see this stuff all the time, where it will disqualify someone based on some stupid reason for an arrest and conviction. Meh, I dunno.

[Oh Shoot]

While I'm still waiting on my permit, I have a buddy who tried to apply and was denied. All because of a DUI within three years. I know that's the letter of the law, he's got to wait now for another nine or so months, but why? I'm trying to think of a reason DUI would disqualify one from having a HCP. ...

Well, right or wrong for practical purposes, I'm sure the lawmakers' intent was to at least partially ensure that the HCP holder is a socially responsible person. And of course, DUI is not exactly a paragon of social responsibility.

- OS

[fizik]

Of course not. I'm just sayin' a lot of people who are upstanding citizens get busted for DUI. They have one two many and drive home, or have a tolerance, aren't drunk, and blow over .08. Or are taking Rx medication with side effects not realizing they're intoxicated. Or even benadryl can lead to DUI. Usually stuff like that gets pleaded down to reckless driving, and I'm not sure if that affects getting a HCP or not. Like my buddy, who's a businessman, ex ARMY Ranger, and family man who made a mistake and got caught.

[Oh Shoot]

...Usually stuff like that gets pleaded down to reckless driving, and I'm not sure if that affects getting a HCP or not. Like my buddy, who's a businessman, ex ARMY Ranger, and family man who made a mistake and got caught.

No, reckless driving has no effect on eligibility, even multiple instances. The only way it could is if you were currently under an indictment for something like that where you were facing a possible penalty of a year or more. (but even if you were found guilty, afterward you could STILL get a HCP, as long as it weren't a felony conviction -- ironic that, eh?)

I understand where you are coming from with this, believe me (I ahem have a little bit of personal experience in that arena). But you know, if you ARE going to institute a DUI/time period clause, how can you legislate "degrees" of it?

- OS

Edited September 9, 2008 by OhShoot

[Fallguy]

There are few things that can disqualify you that I don't agree with, but for now it is the law.

You said on the DUI if it was a habitual thing you'd understand. I guess more than one in the time perirod that state has determined would be considered habitual in their eyes. So as long as your friend doesn't get another DUI within that time frame he'll be ok.

[Guest Phantom6]

.....a one time thing, that was a mistake or whatever the reason - getting a new medicine and not being used to side effects and being stopped can be a DUI. Hell, that doesn't mean somebody's a danger with a gun.

Sorry pal but I'm gonna have to call BS on that. If you are a danger with an automobile then you are certainly a danger with a firearm and an individual that was convicted of a DUI was a danger with an automobile. As an individual who has:

1. driven while drunk or impared (last time about 30 years ago) but never had an accident or caught by the law
   
2. been hit by an individual that was DUI
   
3. lost friends to drunk drivers
   

I'd have to say that driving while impaired for whatever reason, at the very least shows a serious lack of judgment.

• One American life is lost every 20 minutes in alcohol related auto crashes.
  
• An accident by an alcohol impaired driver is the most frequently committed violent crime in the United States today.
  

Other alcohol-related statistics show the involvement of alcohol in many non-driving aspects:

• 54% of all violent crimes are alcohol-related.
  
• 80% of all domestic disputes are alcohol-related.
  

And that's pretty much just booze alone. Though drugs are often involved along with the drinks, this doesn't take into account drug only impaired activities. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a reformed drinker banging a drum out here. Anyone that knows me knows that I really enjoy my spirits. They will also tell you that when I do, I simply do not touch steering wheels or firearms.

I for one certainly have no problem with the state wishing to make sure that folks walking around in public with guns are not repeat offenders when it comes to DUI's.

[DRM]

Of course not. I'm just sayin' a lot of people who are upstanding citizens get busted for DUI.

Let's not blow smoke: getting busted for DUI is not like speeding, or a rolling stop, or jaywalking.

And you don't "accidentally" get drunk and drive.

So, while I disagree with - well, ANY restriction on 2nd amendment rights... I'll have to agree that a DUI is a good mark of someone who makes irresponsible decisions.

[Guest rockytop]

Phantom6 pretty well nailed it. I don't want some fine upstanding citizen who "makes one mistake" (driving drunk), to kill me or some of my family with his vehicle and then make a second "one time mistake (gun), and shoot the ones he hasn't already killed. I don't even want him pulling a gun on me even if he's not behind the wheel. I had much rather try to reason with a sober person than a drunk.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

+1 on Phantom6's post.

[orientalexpress]

This may be a little off topic but I feel that if you;ve committed a crime and have paid your debt to society that you should be allowed to buy guns, vote or etc. But thats just me.

[DMark]

..... ex ARMY Ranger .......

Sorry to Hijack...., but we use the term "Former Army Ranger."

This keeps down the confusion among the Spec Ops types who have to deal with an "EX" or two after several deployments.

[EMTRN]

Good post phantom, I was almost killed by a drunk driver in 2001 and my wife's grandparents were killed by a drunk driver on Easter Sunday while on the way to see her. Both of these events led to career choices for me. A drunk on the road is just as dangerous to my family as a man with a gun to their heads.

[Guest jackdog]

Dui = no permit. Sounds good to me,a drunk and a gun are not a good partnership

[Punisher84]

I'm with Phantom on this. I've never driven drunk and have never committed a crime. I do agree that for certain crimes, after you have paid your debt you should be able to own guns and have a permit. DUI is a choice though. If you're taking meds that you don't know how they affect you, don't drive. If you drink or do drugs, that's your choice, but don't drive.

It only takes one mistake to ruin someone else's life forever.

[Guest sling]

Dui = no permit. Sounds good to me,a drunk and a gun are not a good partnership

+1

IMO, a HCP should show that you are a responsible citizen. Sadly, i know some very stupid irresponsible HCP\gun owners.

Just like i know a lot of people that arent responsible with alcohol when they should. Especially my LEO buddies.

[Fallguy]

You can still get a HCP after a DUI conviction, it is not a permanent disqualifier. You must just wait, I guess to show that maybe it was just a one time, stupid mistake.

39-17-1351 Handgun carry permits.

© The application for a permit shall be on a standard form developed by the department. The application shall clearly state in bold face type directly above the signature line that an applicant who, with intent to deceive, makes any false statement on the application commits the felony offense of perjury pursuant to § 39-16-702. The following are eligibility requirements for obtaining a handgun carry permit and the application shall require the applicant to disclose and confirm compliance with, under oath, the following information concerning the applicant and the eligibility requirements:

(10)

That the applicant is not an unlawful user of or addicted to alcohol or any controlled substance and the applicant has not been a patient in a rehabilitation program or hospitalized for alcohol or controlled substance abuse or addiction within ten (10) years from the date of application;

(11)

That the applicant has not been convicted of the offense of driving under the influence of an intoxicant in this or any other state two (2) or more times within ten (10) years from the date of the application and that none of the convictions has occurred within five (5) years from the date of application or renewal;

[TripleDigitRide]

Sure, this happened to your "friend". :grin:

[Guest Revelator]

I think the 5-year period is too long. Yes a drunk driver excercises terrible judgment and they could have been a grave danger to others, but the same is true for many, many other misdemeanor crimes and those do not carry the five-year ban. For instance, a guy could beat up his pregnant wife and either 1) have the conviction expunged through the diversion process or 2) possibly have the charge dismissed by simply attending a few weeks of anger management classes (commonly done here in Memphis). That guy can then not only own a firearm but can also apply for a carry permit with no five-year waiting period. Compare them to the guy who drives a couple miles home after too much to drink on a deserted road late at night. Now is that fair? I don't know. I do think that it's a grossly inconsistent set of laws.

I mentioned expungment. You can get a lot of first-time offenses expunged. You could actually take someone's life and possibly have the conviction removed. It's true--Reckless Homicide, Criminally Negligent Homicide, Vehicular Homicide, and Voluntary Manslaughter. But you can't expunge a DUI, not in Tennessee at least, and not even a first offense. I suspect that MADD is behind a lot of this. They're pretty powerful lobbyers.

[EMTRN]

+1

Just like i know a lot of people that arent responsible with alcohol when they should. Especially my LEO buddies.

This is sad but true. I hope the culture is changing. In my department we are very strict about using alcohol and we know we won't have a badge anymore if we can't act responsibly. Sadly in a bigger dept I worked for being irresponsible with ETOH was taken very lightly and was very commonplace.

[Guest canynracer]

Dui = no permit. Sounds good to me,a drunk and a gun are not a good partnership

I have a DUI, I got it 10 yrs ago, doesnt make me a drunk.

I would bet money that I drink LESS than most folks on this board. how do I know? I MIGHT drink once every 6-12 months now. I made a terrible decision to get behind the wheel without knowing the facts about how much it affects you. I had 3 beers in less than 2 hours, that is legally drunk. I learned A LOT about alcohol and its effects on the body. but more than anything, I grew up and decided I dint really need to drink to have fun.

BTW, I got my HCP, they sent me a letter asking about the disposition, I got a certified copy of the court records, and FedEx'd them in. I got my permit a week later.

Fisk, I hear what you are trying to say, but there is no way they KNOW that this is a one time mistake, and it is not considered a "mistake" just cause he got caught. It was a poor decision, and bad judgment.

For the time frame...As Fallguy stated, they determined that more than one in the required time is habitual.

[Fallguy]

I think the 5-year period is too long. Yes a drunk driver excercises terrible judgment and they could have been a grave danger to others, but the same is true for many, many other misdemeanor crimes and those do not carry the five-year ban. For instance, a guy could beat up his pregnant wife and either 1) have the conviction expunged through the diversion process or 2) possibly have the charge dismissed by simply attending a few weeks of anger management classes (commonly done here in Memphis). That guy can then not only own a firearm but can also apply for a carry permit with no five-year waiting period. Compare them to the guy who drives a couple miles home after too much to drink on a deserted road late at night. Now is that fair? I don't know. I do think that it's a grossly inconsistent set of laws.

I mentioned expungment. You can get a lot of first-time offenses expunged. You could actually take someone's life and possibly have the conviction removed. It's true--Reckless Homicide, Criminally Negligent Homicide, Vehicular Homicide, and Voluntary Manslaughter. But you can't expunge a DUI, not in Tennessee at least, and not even a first offense. I suspect that MADD is behind a lot of this. They're pretty powerful lobbyers.

Definetly food for thought.....

[Oh Shoot]

I have a DUI, I got it 10 yrs ago, ...

BTW, I got my HCP, they sent me a letter asking about the disposition, I got a certified copy of the court records, and FedEx'd them in. I got my permit a week later.....

Just more crap from that office. WHY should that even be an issue?

Guilty or innocent, or plead down, or dropped ... since it was more than 5 years ago, it doesn't matter, eh?

- OS

[Im Neero]

IBut you can't expunge a DUI, not in Tennessee at least, and not even a first offense. I suspect that MADD is behind a lot of this. They're pretty powerful lobbyers.

Really? My brother got his expunged somehow.

[Guest canynracer]

Just more crap from that office. WHY should that even be an issue?

Guilty or innocent, or plead down, or dropped ... since it was more than 5 years ago, it doesn't matter, eh?

- OS

I am ASSuming it is a liability thing for them, they now have court records from the ONLY thing that showed up on my record in case I lose my mind and go on a spree because "Im a drunk"....they can show that it was 10 yrs ago, and dealt with.

[Guest Revelator]

Really? My brother got his expunged somehow.

You cannot expunge a DUI conviction in Tennessee. Short of an executive pardon, the only way to expunge a conviction is to go on diversion and the DUI statute does not allow that. The DUI law says that the offender must serve the minimum sentence, but under the diversion law a judgment of guilt is witheld and the person is not sentenced. Because of this conflict the DUI law wins. Perhaps your brother's case was in another state, or he got a companion charge to the DUI expunged, or the DUI was reduced to something like reckless driving or just dismissed.