Judge orders baker to serve gay couples despite his religious beliefs

[RobertNashville]

So? The point of the thread is the baker's right to refuse service, not who finds it offensive. Different people find different things offensive... is that what you're pointing out? What a revelation! The big issue the adults here have is the government becoming involved and enforcing other people's petty emotions.

I was just agreeing with someone else's observation because I thought the observation accurate - I don't see that it needs to be in perfect alignment with the "point of the thread" (and where one stands on this issue does not determine whether or not they are an "adult"). Edited December 8, 2013 by RobertNashville

[daddyo]

Why would they not have that right? If as many have proposed hear a "private business" has a right to refuse service to anyone for any reason then they certainly would have the right to refuse service to a military service member wouldn't they?

 

It was kind of a rhetorical question, but thanks for pointing out the obvious.

Edited December 8, 2013 by daddyo

[TMF]

oh I see; so anyway doesn't agree with your position is not an "adult". LOL

Take it easy there, little tyke. I was pointing out what the adults are talking about, not what their opinions are. The grown ups here are talking about the government involvement, not "feelings" of what is right and wrong.

[DaveS]

Please tell me what religion disapproves of baking a cake for same sex marriage couples? My religion says I can drink Wine on Sunday. I think I'll sue my liquor store....they're closed today.

 

DaveS

Edited December 9, 2013 by DaveS

[Q-tip]

One thing I found disturbing about the judge's ruling was that he used the logic "making a cake for a get couple won't negatively affect the bakery's business." It's pretty sad that the judge seems to think money is more important than principle. 

 

On the other hand, since this has gotten so much attention, I bet the bakery's business grows significantly as a result of the owner standing his ground, that is, if the .gov doesn't shut it down . 

[Chucktshoes]

Please tell my what religion disapproves of baking a cake for same sex marriage couples? My religion says I can drink Wine on Sunday. I think I'll sue my liquor store....they're closed today.

DaveS

If you support or facilitate someone else engaging in an action that you view to be wrong or sinful, do you not bear culpability for your level of participation? It is the same concept as being an accessory to a crime.

"Well warden, I didn't poach that deer, my buddy did. I just drove the truck."

[DaveS]

If you support or facilitate someone else engaging in an action that you view to be wrong or sinful, do you not bear culpability for your level of participation? It is the same concept as being an accessory to a crime.

"Well warden, I didn't poach that deer, my buddy did. I just drove the truck."

I see that this has a lot to do with someone discriminating against gay marriages. Is it because he doesn't believe in it? That Baker is just a small part of the problem that is plaguing our country today!

Now, what does this have to do with deer poaching?

 

Dave

Edited December 8, 2013 by DaveS

[Mike.357]

Please tell my what religion disapproves of baking a cake for same sex marriage couples? My religion says I can drink Wine on Sunday. I think I'll sue my liquor store....they're closed today.

 

DaveS

 

 

except the liquor store has no say over being closed on Sunday.  Sue the state legislature who has decided certain businesses can't set their own hours.

[Chucktshoes]

I don't see what this has to do with someone discriminating against gay marriages. Is it because he doesn't believe in it? That Baker is just a small part of the problem that is plaguing our country today!
Now, what does this have to do with deer poaching?

Dave

The deer poaching comment was a lighthearted attempt to translate the concept using a metaphor I thought would be relatable to you. I think any game warden would call boy driving just as guilty of poaching as the boy who did the shooting. Right?

If one has a religious objection to homosexuality/gay marriage then to facilitate that would make one guilty as well.

Here is different example.
I have a friend of mine that works at another location of the same pharmacy chain I do. He is devoutly Catholic and the Church's teaching is that the use birth control is a sin. He does not handle BC pills and especially avoids the morning after pills because to facilitate someone else using them and committing a sin, he would be guilty of the sin of "scandal". (This is how it was explained to me by my friend, if any Catholics on the board are able to offer correction to something I have wrong, please do so. )

As far as the baker being part of what's wrong with the country I would counter that some folks inability to let others live life as they choose without demanding that everyone act and think like they do is a far more problematic issue. Really, how hard is it to go, "Oh, you don't want to bake us a cake, photograph our ceremony or rent us your facility*? Ok. We will take our money elsewhere."


*All items that private individuals and in the last example, a church were sued over for declining to provide service to a gay wedding.

[daddyo]

I see that this has a lot to do with someone discriminating against gay marriages. Is it because he doesn't believe in it? That Baker is just a small part of the problem that is plaguing our country today!

Now, what does this have to do with deer poaching?

 

Dave

 

Dave, does he, as a private business owner, have the right to "discriminate"? Do you have the right to "discriminate" against someone whose actions offend you?

[jwinter]

What does the bible say about how we should treat our fellow man? Does that change from one religion to the next?
 
Dave

I can't speak for other religions but I believe Christianity tells us to be compassionate to sinners and help them turn from their sin. I may be wrong but nowhere in the bible does it tell us to encourage sinful acts or to facilitate sinful deeds. I believe making a cake for a gay wedding would go against God's word and thus the owner was justified in not making the cake.

[Oh Shoot]

I can't speak for other religions but I believe Christianity tells us to be compassionate to sinners and help them turn from their sin. I may be wrong but nowhere in the bible does it tell us to encourage sinful acts or to facilitate sinful deeds. I believe making a cake for a gay wedding would go against God's word and thus the owner was justified in not making the cake.

 

Hobby Lobby felt same about ObamaCare and contraceptives, sought an injunction,  SCOTUS said no. Now in new suit has been granted a temporary injunction to not comply by US District court, we'll see.

 

Seems Catholic based orgs have not been granted the same injunctions for same issue, though, but not sure, haven't kept up with that.

 

- OS

[Guest Riciticky]

Ok you guys. Which one is gonna come out of the closet and admit you are gay. Come on. Come out of the closet. There is no way this thread could go on for this long without one. Just put those pretty little pink fingernails on the keyboard and come out. The gov.  and Obama will protect you.

[daddyo]

Why would anyone admit to being gay if he wasn't?

[Chucktshoes]

Ok you guys. Which one is gonna come out of the closet and admit you are gay. Come on. Come out of the closet. There is no way this thread could go on for this long without one. Just put those pretty little pink fingernails on the keyboard and come out. The gov. and Obama will protect you.

Ha! I can tell you are still kinda new around here. At least every couple of months we have a thread about the gays that goes long and strong and just when you think it has petered out it rises again for another round of flogging.

[mav]

I can't speak for other religions but I believe Christianity tells us to be compassionate to sinners and help them turn from their sin. I may be wrong but nowhere in the bible does it tell us to encourage sinful acts or to facilitate sinful deeds. I believe making a cake for a gay wedding would go against God's word and thus the owner was justified in not making the cake.

 

I, being a fellow Christian, believe that people are making this into something it is not.  In no way would making a cake for a gay wedding be any sort of endorsement or acceptance of that union.  The baker is simply providing a service from his chosen profession.  Now, if the baker decided to give the cake away for free as a gift, then that would be a different story.

 

Every time religion becomes part of one's defense or argument, things become skewed.  What if the couple were not gay, but one of them was an adulterer or fornicator?  Would baking a cake for them somehow be an endorsement of their behavior?  Based on some responses I have read in this thread, the answer would be yes.  If this had been the case, would the baker have refused to make a cake?  Probably not.  Therefore, is it sin in general that is being frowned upon, or is it just a specific sin?  The reasoning I see so many people use at times on religious matters is often quite Pharisaical, and I believe that is one of the reasons so many have turned from the faith or view Christians with such disdain.

 

Personally, I think religion needs to stay out of this as it tends to muddy the waters.  The crux of the matter is simply: should the government be able to force a private business to provide a service to an individual or group of whom they have discriminated?  While it may not be popular, the answer is no.  I believe that people and private businesses should have the right to discriminate anyone for anything. The only time discrimination should be disallowed is when we are dealing with a government entity. In almost all other cases we should let the free markets handle it.  I know this is not reality, but it is my view on the way things should be.

Edited December 9, 2013 by mav

[94user]

The ignorance and hate in this thread is amazing especially from some of yall who claim to be "Christians". Nothing more than a bunch of hypocrites.

I'll chime in on the ignorance and hate part of Duce's statement.  Posts #'s 93, 98, and 138 Fill that bill as far as I'm concerned. If these were attempts at humor they were done in poor taste. I thought this was a gun forum. This topic has had more posts in the last two days than any gun related topic. Is this how we really want the world to view TGO ? Live, let live and stop the bickering amongst each other. Agree to disagree, stop trying to beat each other into submission to your view. This is the kind of division that is tearing our country apart.

Edited December 9, 2013 by 94user

[DaveS]

The deer poaching comment was a lighthearted attempt to translate the concept using a metaphor I thought would be relatable to you. I think any game warden would call boy driving just as guilty of poaching as the boy who did the shooting. Right?

If one has a religious objection to homosexuality/gay marriage then to facilitate that would make one guilty as well.

Here is different example.
I have a friend of mine that works at another location of the same pharmacy chain I do. He is devoutly Catholic and the Church's teaching is that the use birth control is a sin. He does not handle BC pills and especially avoids the morning after pills because to facilitate someone else using them and committing a sin, he would be guilty of the sin of "scandal". (This is how it was explained to me by my friend, if any Catholics on the board are able to offer correction to something I have wrong, please do so. )

As far as the baker being part of what's wrong with the country I would counter that some folks inability to let others live life as they choose without demanding that everyone act and think like they do is a far more problematic issue. Really, how hard is it to go, "Oh, you don't want to bake us a cake, photograph our ceremony or rent us your facility*? Ok. We will take our money elsewhere."


*All items that private individuals and in the last example, a church were sued over for declining to provide service to a gay wedding.

OK, I follow you Chuck

 

Dave

Edited December 9, 2013 by DaveS

[Il Duce]

I'll chime in on the ignorance and hate part of Duce's statement. Posts #'s 93, 98, and 138 Fill that bill as far as I'm concerned. If these were attempts at humor they were done in poor taste. I thought this was a gun forum. This topic has had more posts in the last two days than any gun related topic. Is this how we really want the world to view TGO ? Live, let live and stop the bickering amongst each other. Agree to disagree, stop trying to beat each other into submission to your view. This is the kind of division that is tearing our country apart.

Those were the three. I would have responded earlier but i was working.

I know people who are gay and they are more classy, respectful, and overall better people than some of the members who posted in this thread.

[Guest RebelCowboySnB]

That's the thing about religion. No one agrees. If we did we would call it fact. That is the point...

 

I believe what I believe for my own reasons. I could care less what anyone else thinks of it. I can debate opinion all day long but its not like law. One mans opinion does not rule an everyone does not have to follow that rule even if they don't agree. I have to go on mine alone an in mine it effects every action I take.

 

Lots of people hold opinions I don't care for but only they have to be responsible for them. All I can do is respect them for having an opinion an hope they respect me for mine.

 

No point in debating religion here. The man has a religious opinion an he has a right to it. What we think one way or the other about his opinion does not matter.

 

All that matters is whose rights are being violated.

[Il Duce]

That's the thing about religion. No one agrees. If we did we would call it fact. That is the point...

I believe what I believe for my own reasons. I could care less what anyone else thinks of it. I can debate opinion all day long but its not like law. One mans opinion does not rule an everyone does not have to follow that rule even if they don't agree. I have to go on mine alone an in mine it effects every action I take.

Lots of people hold opinions I don't care for but only they have to be responsible for them. All I can do is respect them for having an opinion an hope they respect me for mine.

No point in debating religion here. The man has a religious opinion an he has a right to it. What we think one way or the other about his opinion does not matter.

All that matters is whose rights are being violated.

So you do care?

[Dustbuster]

Dude should have baked em one of these: lot less than lawyers fees, he could have gone to confession and explained how he made a wrestle mania cake problem solved geez...



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 of course it ate my spelling.

[94user]

I'm more concerned that the discussion about gay rights gets more more people worked up here than our right to keep and bear arms. Why ?

[turkeydad]

Good times. . my take on 3 sets of idiots. . .

 

The Baker: "They're Gay Im not serving them casue Im a Christian".  .really? Where in the teachings of Jesus does it say point out each others sins. . compare and ostricize each other according their popularity. . Jesus spent more time with whores. . lepers and the other then perceived dregs of society than he ever did trying to lead the people in the temple . . why? I suspect because there was more to salvage with them  than with the self rightious pharisees in the temple who spent more time making sure everyone knew their place as apposed to loving and caring for your fellow man. . which by the way is the prime directive for dealing with each other. The holy Bible is wonderful tool to teach a man how to live. . but when people or the baker in this case use it to tell someone else how to live. . thats how it becomes a center for hate and despite. . shame on him. . this is the book definition of taking the lords name in vain. .Your gay. . Im better than you the bible says so. . look at me and how moral I am. . .absolutely disgusting. .

 

The gay people. . really? he wont make me a cake Im gonna sue. . Yes he completely misses the point and damages what he professes to serve. . just walk away. . granted I dont personally celebrate the lifestyle. .but I understand your plight. . I know for a fact that I have been discriminated against because Im fat. .which in my case is a choice. . I like me some groceries. . I went to work once in the early nineties for a pressure washing service. . I had applied once before.  .but was not considered for the job. . after I worked a few months the owner apologized and told me your one of the best workers Ive ever had.  .Im sorry. .  he said. . I didnt hire cause your big and I thought you would be lazy . . .It was his problem not mine. . He had to discover that for hisself. .

 

The judge. . .do you think you can regulate someones prejudices or belief system. . even if it is as obviously perverted as the bakers. . . youve got better things to do.  .people who want to hate or discriminate against anyone for any reason are gonna do it. . if you try to make them accept them or serve them. . they will just hate and discriminate in the dark. .the results will be the same . .

 

And lastly dont compare this douchebag baker to hobby lobbies fight with obama care. . I couldnt care less where another man sticks his hoo hoo dilly. . but trying to make me pay for the wanton murder of unborn children as a form of birth control is another matter. . .

[DaveS]

My point on this subject lies in the fact that some of y'all on here whine every time a cop asks someone open carrying for an ID, because it violates their  rights! How a gun buster violates your rights, how a Terry Stop violates your rights ect ect ect.... the list just goes on and on as long as it fits some of y'alls agendas of rights, it's a ok. Let some Baker violate the rights of a gay couple, and some of y'all act like cheer leaders jumping up and down in favor of discrimination. No I'm not gay by no means, but I had the most pleasurable opportunity to work in EEO and as a Union Steward at the Fire dept. for about 10 years and I've never in my life seen the hypocrites as I see here. I've thought it over and I'm glad they went to the courts over it. You know what? I would too as I would not allow you to treat me any different than anyone else! Religion or otherwise! I guess rights were written for a few select groups and allows us to pick and choose what we want to do when it comes to the rights of others. In my opinion that couple should have been able to buy a cake as easy as the rest of us. I hope his bakery gets boycotted big time!!

 

Rant off....smiley switched back on.

 

Dave