quick sbr question

[reed1285]

im filling out my paperwork for my first sbr!! II Duce has been a huge help in walking me through the process, so props to him. I have a question though. In section 4 e or f ( cant remember exactly) on a form 1, it asks for the overall length of the firearm. Im guessing this means that on one with a collapsible stock, it is referring to overall length if the stock is collapsed all the way? I plan on an 11.5" barrel, so can I just measure on one of my current 16" ar's? For instance can I just collapse the stock all the way and measure up to where an 11.5" barrel would be, and use that measurement on my form 1?  

 

I hope to have the paperwork turned in around the first of the year, and with a little luck i will get my stamp back this time NEXT year. The way my luck goes though it will be 2015 before I see it.

[Smith]

No you measure with the stock fully extended per the ATF, also if it were a folding stock you measure with the stock extended and unfolded. I believe that is covered on their FAQ albeit not under the SBR section 

[reed1285]

Thanks, i couldnt find it anywhere. My google-fu is off right now.

[reed1285]

Another question. Once an sbr is approved and made, can you ever go shorter on the barrel than what was on the paperwork? Or can that sbr only ever have the size barrel originally built with

[Smith]

Another question. Once an sbr is approved and made, can you ever go shorter on the barrel than what was on the paperwork? Or can that sbr only ever have the size barrel originally built with

IIRC you can go longer but you can't go shorter. I was advised to list the barrel length on the form the shortest I thought I might make it in the future and then I'd be ok going longer.

[reed1285]

IIRC you can go longer but you can't go shorter. I was advised to list the barrel length on the form the shortest I thought I might make it in the future and then I'd be ok going longer.

Thats a good idea, i might put oal for a 10.5" barrel then

[Oh Shoot]

Thats a good idea, i might put oal for a 10.5" barrel then

 

Wouldn't that screw you if you ever wanted to sell the thing as an SBR?  As I understand it, you can "temporarily" change config any time you like (with no time limit specified), but to transfer it, has to be in same config as originally registered, unless you notified ATF of a permanent config change?

 

Of course, you can always sell it in non-NFA configuration as normal firearm, and sell barrel separately, so this may not matter to ya at all.

 

- OS

[MacGyver]

Of course, you can always sell it in non-NFA configuration as normal firearm, and sell barrel separately, so this may not matter to ya at all.

- OS

I'm pretty sure that once a firearm is on the registry, it stays on the registry. You can't just swap an NFA barrel and sell it.

[Oh Shoot]

I'm pretty sure that once a firearm is on the registry, it stays on the registry. You can't just swap an NFA barrel and sell it.

 

 

No, you can configure it as non-NFA and sell it perfectly legally, as complete legal rifle, or even parts (full auto parts/can excepted of course). ATF "asks" that you send letter you've removed it from NFA classification is all but even that is not "required".

 

I'll find ATF FAQ if someone else doesn't first.

 

edit: here, found it quicker than I thought. Discussed variously on this page, especially second section:

 

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html#receiver-nfa-transfer

 

(btw, this statement, which is off topic, caught my eye:

 

"A non-licensee or FFL who has not paid the SOT is required to register any NFA firearm via an ATF Form 1 (5320.1) prior to acquisition of the parts required to assemble such firearm."

 

is actually wrong, or let's just say, "incomplete", as all parts to make an SBR are perfectly legal to possess without tax stamp as long as they also have a legal use other than making an NFA firearm.)

 

- OS

Edited December 7, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Smith]

I'm pretty sure that once a firearm is on the registry, it stays on the registry. You can't just swap an NFA barrel and sell it.

No. you can transfer it or transport it as a standard configuration as long as it is not in the Class III configuration or have the parts to assemble it in an class III configuration. Officially taking it off the registry is not required but requested by the ATF.

 

Much of this was changed with the Thompson rulings.

[MacGyver]

That makes zero sense, but I guess the law makes no sense.

I learned something new today.

[Oh Shoot]

That makes zero sense, but I guess the law makes no sense.

I learned something new today.

 

Well, seems fair, and even logical to me (I mean at least in the context of the illogical SBR requirement in the first place).

 

If you want to pay 200 clams and wait a year to make an SBR, fine. But also fine if you later want to nuke the whole idea and turn it into a normal legal rifle and sell it. It's not like you get a refund or anything. :)

 

- OS

Edited December 7, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[scoutfsu]

IIRC you can go longer but you can't go shorter. I was advised to list the barrel length on the form the shortest I thought I might make it in the future and then I'd be ok going longer.

 

I believe you're mistaken on this one. You can go shorter or longer at your discretion. 

[Oh Shoot]

I believe you're mistaken on this one. You can go shorter or longer at your discretion. 

 

Yup. Any "temporary" barrel is fine. 

 

- OS

[reed1285]

ok good to know, thanks!

[Guest kingarmory]

"Temporary" changes are fine (i.e. non-permanent parts).  So if you have an SBS with additional barrels of different lengths or something like an SBR'ed AR15 with different barrels or uppers, that is considered "temporary" and is perfectly legal.  Now if you have something like an SBR'ed AK where the barrels aren't readily changeable, then it needs to be in the length specified on your form generally.

[Oh Shoot]

"Temporary" changes are fine (i.e. non-permanent parts).  So if you have an SBS with additional barrels of different lengths or something like an SBR'ed AR15 with different barrels or uppers, that is considered "temporary" and is perfectly legal.  Now if you have something like an SBR'ed AK where the barrels aren't readily changeable, then it needs to be in the length specified on your form generally.

 

I don't see how the degree of difficulty in changing the config matters one whit. There's no "degree of difficulty" rule anywhere.

 

The only time it needs to be in the config  as registered is if transferring it in its NFA config , where the transferring FFL is supposed to note that it's the same as registered.

 

- OS

[Guest kingarmory]

As it was explained to me, anything that would constitute a "permanent" change to the configuration would need to be updated on the form, but using a different upper or barrel occasionally wasn't considered "permanent" and did not require updating the form as long as it could be readily put back into the "as listed' configuration.  Your mileage may vary

[Oh Shoot]

As it was explained to me, anything that would constitute a "permanent" change to the configuration would need to be updated on the form, but using a different upper or barrel occasionally wasn't considered "permanent" and did not require updating the form as long as it could be readily put back into the "as listed' configuration.  Your mileage may vary

 

That's correct, but not what you said in previous post. Specifically, an AK barrel change is no more "permanent" than an AR one just because it's not as easily accomplished. Unless you just want it to become the spec on record for some reason or other.

 

- OS

Edited December 8, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Guest kingarmory]

You can't readily swap out an AK barrel, its not like you dropped on a spare barrel or upper.  Just stating what I was told on the matter, take the advice or don't its no difference to me.  Its like changing the color on your car, if its "permanent" you're supposed to get that info updated on your registration.  I'm saying that painting it with orange tempura paint before going tailgating at the college football game isn't "permanent" because it can be easily "undone", you're saying that you could have the car "permanently" repainted orange and wouldn't need to update the info until you sold the car.  Follow what I'm saying here?  

From the ATF website
 

Q: May the short barrel on an SBR or SBS be replaced with a long barrel for hunting or other purposes, with the intent of replacing the short barrel?

Yes, and you will not be required to again register the firearm before replacing the short barrel. ATF recommends written notification to the NFA Branch when a firearm’s configuration is permanently changed or removed from the purview of the NFA.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2013 by kingarmory

[Smith]

You can't readily don't mind me. swap out an AK barrel, its not like you dropped on a spare barrel or upper. Just stating what I was told on the matter, take the advice or don't its no difference to me.

kinda what was suggested to me on an AK SBR. List the shortest length for convenience. It'seasy to make an AK longer but more difficult to go shorter. makes sense that it wouldn't necessarily apply to an AR.

[Oh Shoot]

ATF recommends written notification to the NFA Branch when a firearm’s configuration is permanently changed or removed from the purview of the NFA.

 

"Suggests". Okay. "Permanent". Whatever. Like loaning a firearm for "temporary" use, but undefined with no time limit.

 

Further point is still that firearm must be in length that is registered to transfer it, so if you put in a fictitious length that you don't even have a barrel to achieve, would halt a transfer if you ever wanted to do it. You'd have to update the registry info to reflect what you actually had all along -- which seems to take months according to what I've read, or actually get and have installed a barrel of the appropriate length.

 

I suppose that last part is up to the transferring FFL to report the accurate description of the firearm.

 

- OS

Edited December 9, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Guest kingarmory]

The info on the form isn't going to be checked by the ATF, its going to be submitted by the SOT or private party that is building the gun.  Your gun is expected to match the info listed on the paperwork if it is ever checked by LE or a federal agent (i.e. you're out shooting in woods and they ask to see your NFA form), but its not going to delay an approval.  If you got an SBR'ed AR15 and the upper on it at the moment doesn't match the paperwork, its not going to be an issue because the uppers can be swapped out easily.  If you have an SBR'ed HK91 that's been cropped down to MP5 size, then you're gonna want to submit that addendum form to the BATF.  General rule of thumb on this is much like it is with "permanently" attached muzzle devices, "permanent" generally means that the use of tools will be required to remove it (weld, pin&weld, hi-temp silversolder, braze, etc).  Likewise, if your change on your SBR/SBS length involves tools to make happen (i.e. not a "field" job), its probably going to be considered "permanent" and ya probably should submit an addendum.

[Oh Shoot]

The info on the form isn't going to be checked by the ATF, its going to be submitted by the SOT or private party that is building the gun.

 

 

Appreciate your info, but I'm talking about you selling your SBR. Are you saying the FFL/SOT handling the transfer does not communicate the actual status of the firearm, for ATF to check against the existing registry entry? Seems the actual firearm to be transferred does have to still match the existing registry for it?

 

I have seen a lot of comments on forums that they have to match. Like these, from quick random search:

 

"I recently talked to a specialist in Martinsburg about this. They don't want to be notified of temporary changes. The definition of a permanent change is that you cannot return the gun to its registered description then you are ready to transfer it. In other words, if you ever plan on transferring the gun then you must either return the gun to its registered configuration or send a change letter before you start the transfer process. You cannot use a Form 4 for that purpose."

 

"Because if the barrel length doesn't match the Form 1, it can screw up a transfer. They check the data on Form 4s against the original registration, and if they don't match, there are solid reasons for looking into why they don't."

 

"Personally experience, barrel change held up a form 4 on a M11/9, required the seller to send in a letter. I would think its upper is just as modular as an AR series gun."

 

etc. ???

 

 

 

- OS

[Guest kingarmory]

If the gun is in the NFA registry already then that information is going to need to match when transferred obviously, but the OP is filling out a Form 1 which is for building a new NFA item, not transferring an existing one.  If he was transferring an existing SBR then the info would need to match what was on file for that gun when it was added to the NFA registry (unless the aforementioned addendum letter had been submitted and approved).

Edited December 9, 2013 by kingarmory