I just have to settle this!

[Guest Southern Christian Armed]

I am new to 1911's. I am now carrying a Para P12. I have always carried Glocks with the occasional XD, Bersa .380, and M&P.

 

Here is my argument. Why is it standard to carry a 1911 "cocked and Locked"? Why cant you carry cocked and unlocked?

 

If you think about it, I carry my glock with no safety. If you consider the trigger a safety shame on you cause once you have put your finger on the trigger its not a safety. And if you do consider it a safety then I argue that not putting your finger on the 1911 trigger is just as safe correct?

 

If I carry my para cocked and unlocked its the same as carrying a glock essentially. Its even a tad safer as it has a grip safety making the thumb safety knull.

 

So a 1911 cocked and off safety will not go bang unless you grip it and pull the trigger as a glock.....

 

Some will argue the lighter trigger pull or shorter trigger pull of a 1911. Well my 1911 measured at 5.6 lbs where my newest 23 measured at 5.3.... Hmmmm Shorter trigger pull, SIMPLE Don't put your finger on the trigger till ready to shoot, that's what I was taught in military and armed services.... So a 1.5 lb trigger or 20lb trigger shouldn't matter.

 

Now we get to the ones that argue drop safeties and that mess. Guess what, the odds I drop my 1911 from a high enough point that the enertia enacts the grip safety and drops the seer are slim at best. On top of that, the 1911 has a plunger under the slide the same as a glock that has to be depressed to allow the firing pin to travel all the way forward. SO in theory, If I drop the 1911, when it hit, the trigger would have to be pulled to drop the seer and plunger and the grip safety hit at the same time.... Really.

 

So please tell me how carrying a 1911 cocked and unlocked is unsafe in any nature compared to other carry options? I just ask this because every time I bring it up your 1911 fans say "oh you have to carry locked" (is this just a case of whats right in the 1911 world) and your glock fans say "its not as safe" our polymer pistols are designed to carry with no safety.

 

And funny thing is Im a glock nut.

[Guest Brutnus]

people be crazy man, do what you feel is right. Some people believe they shouldn't have one in the chamber. They would also be crazy.

[Guest Southern Christian Armed]

people be crazy man, do what you feel is right. Some people believe they shouldn't have one in the chamber. They would also be crazy.

 

Funny you say that. I have a father in law that carries an XD in a retention holster with*OUT* one in the chamber! Really, like you are gonna have time and frame of mind to do the retention, rack slide, point, and shoot if a "bad guy" already has one pulled on you 5 ft from ur face....

[East_TN_Patriot]

I would say there are two reasons: 1) I am under the impression that it's primarily because the 1911 does not include a drop safety or firing pin block, and the thumb safety prevents the hammer from falling if the pistol is dropped. Striker fired pistols like the Glock are not prone to this possible problem. This is the reason that people who carry and compete using older style single-action revolvers are not supposed to carry with the hammer sitting on a live round. 2) Assuming you train on the 1911 properly, the time it takes to deactivate the thumb safety is so negligible that it doesn't make sense not to have this extra safety on while carrying with the hammer cocked on a single action handgun that doesn't typically have a very beefy trigger guard or safety integrated into the trigger like on the Glock. There are enough people who have shot themselves with other types of firearms after the trigger got hooked on a holster, clothing, etc., so why risk it?

On your other point, I see no advantage to having a carry gun without having a round in the chamber. Edited December 5, 2013 by East_TN_Patriot

[Guest Razz]

The series 80 was introduced in 1983, and came with a firing pin block and plunger, acting as a drop safety.

Was the series 70 more prone to discharge when dropped? Beats me. Just thought I'd add this to the discussion.

[Guest Riciticky]

Funny you say that. I have a father in law that carries an XD in a retention holster with*OUT* one in the chamber! Really, like you are gonna have time and frame of mind to do the retention, rack slide, point, and shoot if a "bad guy" already has one pulled on you 5 ft from ur face....

If a bad guy has one pulled on you already, well you better be faster than Matt Dillion. JMO

[Jonnin]

Some 1911s have a pretty slick trigger.   Not usually the ones carried, but its the CYA factor --- not knowing YOUR 1911, people recommend the safety being on in case its one of "those" with the 1 pound trigger and near zero travel.   A typical off the shelf mid grade 1911 usually has enough trigger slop and weight to be as safe as a glock, agreed.  But every glock is identical.  Not all 1911s are.  You know what you are getting into when you talk glock.   Not so 1911:   YOURS is 6 pounds.  Someone elses may be less than 1/3 of that...

 

Modern 1911s are drop safe IFF they have not been tampered with.  But there are tons of shade-tree 1911 home trigger jobs and some of those WILL slip if dropped if the safety is off.   YOURS is safe. 

 

So, what it comes down to is that you can say with confidence that YOUR 1911 is safe to carry without the safety on.   But you can't say that as a blanket statement about all 1911 due to the questionable condition of some older ones,  potentially unsafe modifications,  ultra tweaked target pistols, and other such things.

[chances R]

My question is WHY NOT use the safety if you have one?  IF 'time' is the issue, then you need to become more familiar with your presentation.  The safety going off/on should be automatic and a non-factor in any situation.  As previously pointed out by ETPatriot, a lot of things make a gun go boom other than the trigger finger.

[Spurholder]

Glocks with a chambered round are still only partially cocked. 

 

A 1911 with a chambered round is fully cocked, as is the Springfield xD.

 

There's no way I'd carry fully cocked without a manual safety, firing pin safety or not.

 

YMMV.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Spurholder

[173rdABN]

Train until your confident with your equipment. If you don't feel comfortable with a loaded 1911 on your hip, then don't carry it or don't carry it loaded. It's about what your can trust yourself with.

I carry my 1911 tac ops everyday loaded, safety on and have zero worries of it failing me, or me failing it.

Again, it's just about your comfort level and trust In yourself.

You won't have time to rack that slide if it came down to it. You need about 25' just to draw and fire your gun from an attacker charging your with a knife. There has been lots of studies done on this, and you can find the old FBI data on YouTube of you dig deep enough. Now, imagine someone with a gun attacking you. Still think you will have enough time to rack the slide and defend yourself?

I highly recommend you get a gun your comfortable with to carry loaded.

[Patton]

Everything mentioned already plus many old timers, my grandfather included, would tell me the grip safety would often stick. Remember, JMB excluded the grip safety from the 1911 but to sell the model he had to go back and include it. The 1911 was designed for a different crowd, while people liked autos there wasn't much trust, very few carried wit a round in the chamber. If you had to chamber a round is when you would activate the safety, otherwise the 1911 was designed for folks who carry hammer down on an open chamber.

[TMF]

By all means, you don't have to keep the safety on when holstered. Let me know how that works out for you after carrying it that way for a while.

[peejman]

If a bad guy has one pulled on you already, well you better be faster than Matt Dillion. JMO

 

 

Not necessarily, there's plenty instances of people successfully defending themselves when the perp got the drop on them.  Don't ever give up.

Edited December 5, 2013 by peejman

[mikegideon]

Language warning...

 

[media] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3kJ6SU3ycs [/media]

[TMF]

Language warning...
 
[media] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3kJ6SU3ycs [/media]

Yup. Most folks don't know someone who shot themselves in the leg with a 1911. I do. I'd recommend using that safety.

[LagerHead]

Glocks with a chambered round are still only partially cocked. 

 

A 1911 with a chambered round is fully cocked, as is the Springfield xD.

 

There's no way I'd carry fully cocked without a manual safety, firing pin safety or not.

 

YMMV.

 

I'll give you $100 if you can make the striker fall on my XD or XDm without pulling the trigger (or without pushing down on the sear with a punch or something from the back). In order for the XD striker to fall, three safeties must be defeated, and the only way to defeat one of them is to pull the trigger. Of course to pull the trigger you have to defeat BOTH of the other two safeties. Not having a "manual" safety in no way makes it unsafe. 

[MacGyver]

Tex shot himself with a Kimber Pro Carry in the video above.  This is one of the best videos I've seen detailing the incident and the problem with the Serpas in general:

 

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GDpxVG9XFJc[/media]

 

I use the safety on my 1911s.

[mikegideon]

Some 1911s have a pretty slick trigger.   Not usually the ones carried, but its the CYA factor --- not knowing YOUR 1911, people recommend the safety being on in case its one of "those" with the 1 pound trigger and near zero travel.   A typical off the shelf mid grade 1911 usually has enough trigger slop and weight to be as safe as a glock, agreed.  But every glock is identical.  Not all 1911s are.  You know what you are getting into when you talk glock.   Not so 1911:   YOURS is 6 pounds.  Someone elses may be less than 1/3 of that...

 

Modern 1911s are drop safe IFF they have not been tampered with.  But there are tons of shade-tree 1911 home trigger jobs and some of those WILL slip if dropped if the safety is off.   YOURS is safe. 

 

So, what it comes down to is that you can say with confidence that YOUR 1911 is safe to carry without the safety on.   But you can't say that as a blanket statement about all 1911 due to the questionable condition of some older ones,  potentially unsafe modifications,  ultra tweaked target pistols, and other such things.

 

There has been a lot of threads out there on 1911 carry. A large majority agrees that condition 0 isn't safe until you're ready to shoot. I have two 1911's, both bought recently. Neither has a firing pin safety. Both are a hell of a lot easier to accidentally discharge than my Glocks.

 

The good news is that the 1911 has been around for over 100 years, and they figured this shit out a long time ago. We don't have to do it here :)

[Spurholder]

I'll give you $100 if you can make the striker fall on my XD or XDm without pulling the trigger (or without pushing down on the sear with a punch or something from the back). In order for the XD striker to fall, three safeties must be defeated, and the only way to defeat one of them is to pull the trigger. Of course to pull the trigger you have to defeat BOTH of the other two safeties. Not having a "manual" safety in no way makes it unsafe. 

 

Then there's the whole grip safety thing...but that wasn't my point, anyway.

 

What I should've typed:  "A Glock with a chambered round is still only partially cocked,  A 1911 with a chambered round is fully cocked (so is a Springfield xD, but that's another story). 

 

There's no way I'd carry fully cocked without a manual safety, firing pin safety or not.

 

My post wasn't a slam on xD's.

[Guest Riciticky]

JMO, If you want to carry, carry a handgun with a decocker and safety. Personally I prefer a fnx which has both. You can decide if you want it on safe, cocked and unlocked or the heavier trigger pull for safety.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Riciticky

[mikegideon]

JMO, If you want to carry, carry a handgun with a decocker and safety. Personally I prefer a fnx which has both. You can decide if you want it on safe, cocked and unlocked or the heavier trigger pull for safety.

 

Preferences vary widely. I've owned a DA/SA decocker since the '70's, but prefer Glocks these days. I even shoot better with the decocker once I get it into single action mode.

[McGarrett]

I carry my USP40 decocked with the safety on. I prefer the DA along with the safety for carrying. Not sure why you would not use the safety but to each his own. I don't really see the comparison to the striker fired pistols, seems like apples & oranges since they operate quite differently from my understanding. 

 

If I carried a 1911 cocked without the safety it would feel the same to me as carrying a revolver cocked. I would feel very uneasy, but then again I always wear my seat belt when driving because I don't feel right without it on. Just my 2 cents. I think you will have to go with what you feel most comfortable with.

[mikegideon]

When I took my HCP class, my instructor ran me thru a bunch of defensive drills before actually shooting for score. I used my old DA/SA decocker S&W for the class. He made me use the safety. Draw, safety off, fire. I carry Glocks now. I still have the S&W BTW.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

If I carry my para cocked and unlocked its the same as carrying a glock essentially. Its even a tad safer as it has a grip safety making the thumb safety knull.

 

So a 1911 cocked and off safety will not go bang unless you grip it and pull the trigger as a glock.....

 

I'm real ignorant, but 1911 folks use a "ride the safety" grip. The way a 1911 is configured, it is real ergonomic to grip the pistol with the thumb resting on the safety. So if you are accustomed to that grip, you draw and your thumb is already on the safety before you can even get the pistol on-target.

 

So I don't see how it significantly slows a person down, to flip down the safety about the same time a fella is putting his finger in the trigger guard to mash the bang switch. And it is easy to get in the habit of flipping the safety back up after firing, because the thumb is already sitting on the safety, never left the safety ever since the pistol was drawn.

 

Just saying, WITH A 1911, if you are riding the safety when you grip the gun, then I don't see how using the safety lever would slow you down? It is just a reflex, push down on the safety then pull the trigger. Then push up on the safety afterward.

 

I like Beretta 92, but one can't ride the safety the same way on the 92. It is a long reach for me to flip off the safety (the wrong direction) on the 92, and my 92's have purt stiff safety lever. So for me, it would slow me down somewhat to take off the safety on a 92 because I have to move the thumb too far, and push too hard.

 

Similarly, it is theoretically possible to ride the safety and use a CZ 75 cocked and locked, but even after putting thin grips and an oversized safety lever on my CZ85, it is very awkward to use the pistol riding the safety. My thumb is too short. To get the thumb hiked up on the safety and also reach the trigger with the trigger finger, puts the hand offset a little too much from the "ideal grip". Somebody with a longer thumb could do it better.

 

But the 1911 is nearly ideal ergonomics for riding the safety.

[mikegideon]

Spot on, Lester. I doesn't get more ergonomic than a 1911 safety. No reason to butt-shoot yourself.