.45acp for Carry?

[Dolomite_supafly]

And ball ammo will pass through the average person.

I was shot by a 45 ACP loaded with ball ammo. Had it been modern ammunition I probably would have a lot more problems. When I got shot I had no clue I had been hit for 2-3 minutes until my leg started going numb. It went straight through and felt like a muscle cramp for a few weeks.

I will NEVER carry any FMJ in any pistol.

[mikegideon]

And ball ammo will pass through the average person.

I was shot by a 45 ACP loaded with ball ammo. Had it been modern ammunition I probably would have a lot more problems. When I got shot I had no clue I had been hit for 2-3 minutes until my leg started going numb. It went straight through and felt like a muscle cramp for a few weeks.

I will NEVER carry any FMJ in any pistol.

 

Well, I hope you shot him back :). The .45 ACP has less energy than a .40 S&W at any range, and more than a 9mm. They're all gonna bleed of a lot of energy as soon as they hit anything, soft or hard. You're making the best point. A bullet's job is to drain the blood supply of the target. Smooth and round ain't the best geometry. They need teeth.

[Guest Razz]

It isn't a high power rifle cartridge. How much penetrating does a 45 ACP do? I'm asking because I have no idea, but I don't suspect over penetration is as big a concern as missing. I wouldn't expect that big, slow hunk of metal to go through an adult and have enough remaining energy to do much.
 
Heck, they don't penetrate air real well.

Compared to these other guys, I'm new to this discussion...but I'll give it a go with what makes sense to me:

Seems like it's a simple matter of mitigating your odds of hitting an unintended target. If you fire ten shots, you have ten opportunities to hit something besides the BG. If you assume FMJ will penetrate a person and potentially strike another, if your shooting 3 in ten hits/shots-fired, you're still potentially hitting a random 10 times. If you assume JHP will not penetrate your BG, you've lowered your chance of hitting the random by 30% just by hitting him three times. I'm sure there is fault in my math but the theory should be sound.

I can't think of an argument to carry anything but JHP except expense and that's pretty weak considering someone's life is on the line.

As far as the amount of energy available after over penetration, I am unwilling to test this with my own body.

[KKing]

[quote name="Dolomite_supafly" post="1071272" timestamp="1385832867"]And ball ammo will pass through the average person. I was shot by a 45 ACP loaded with ball ammo. Had it been modern ammunition I probably would have a lot more problems. When I got shot I had no clue I had been hit for 2-3 minutes until my leg started going numb. It went straight through and felt like a muscle cramp for a few weeks. I will NEVER carry any FMJ in any pistol.[/quote]There you have it, straight from the horses mouth (no offense Dolo)

Compared to these other guys, I'm new to this discussion...but I'll give it a go with what makes sense to me:Seems like it's a simple matter of mitigating your odds of hitting an unintended target. If you fire ten shots, you have ten opportunities to hit something besides the BG. If you assume FMJ will penetrate a person and potentially strike another, if your shooting 3 in ten hits/shots-fired, you're still potentially hitting a random 10 times. If you assume JHP will not penetrate your BG, you've lowered your chance of hitting the random by 30% just by hitting him three times. I'm sure there is fault in my math but the theory should be sound.I can't think of an argument to carry anything but JHP except expense and that's pretty weak considering someone's life is on the line. As far as the amount of energy available after over penetration, I am unwilling to test this with my own body.

As good a logic as any, well said. I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes, or point fingers here. To me, with carrying a firearm comes great responsibility. Ignoring the fact that there is an increased risk of over penetration with a FMJ round is careless. The one shot, one kill mentality of some that carry the .45 ACP is almost laughable. In a self defense situation, with adrenaline surging at high levels, it's very unlikely you're only going to fire one round, which brings you to the point that Razz posted above and yet again increased odds of hitting an unintended target. While on paper I agree that FMJ should do the job just fine, in real life, with lives at stake, far greater factors come into play. Just my opinion, and it's worth what you paid for it Edited November 30, 2013 by KKing

[RobertNashville]

Recently I purchased my first .45 acp, which was a full sized Ruger 1911. I was impressed with the gun and the .45 caliber. Today, I picked up a sweet deal on a G30. I figured that I'd try carrying it instead of my G26 ever now and then if/when needed but I've only shot the 230grain FMJ in the Ruger. Is there a "preferred" round to carry for self defense? I don't carry FMJ in any other round so it just doesn't seem right here, although my understanding is that what round the 1911 was designed for. New to the G30... so I'm hoping for a little guidance from you guys. My other carry guns are usually filled with Hornady Critical Defense.

I carry a G30 and a G21 - I like Golden Saber but truly, any good JHP from a well-known major manufacturer should do fine, both for weapon dependability as well as for its need as a SD round.

 

Never carry anything other than JHP and never carry anything other than factory loaded.

 

Now, since the vast majority of us will never have to discharge our weapon for our own self-protection, the above sentence may seem immaterial. However, if you ever do have to discharge your weapon to protect your life but you and your attorney will be very happy if you followed the advice about factory loaded JHPs.

Edited November 30, 2013 by RobertNashville

[Dolomite_supafly]

A slow moving bullet, like a 45 ACP, will penetrate more than most rifle rounds going 3x as fast.

I have posted this before. I took a 95 grain FMJ and loaded it into a 9mm. I was going to prove that FMJ doesn't always equate to over penetration. I loaded one to ~1,300 fps and one to 2,000 fps. The slow one went through several jugs while the fast one never made it out the first.

If you slow down the average rifle bullet the penetration will increase until you get down below 1,000 fps.

The reason why is most rifle bullets don't penetrate is because their speed is such that it causes the bullet's integrity to fail. With a 45 ACP the bullet does not fail. And a HP is nothing more than a bullet failing in a controlled manner.

[Guest TNSovereignty]

I've read this since Al Gore invented the internet, but I've yet to see a case in which someone was prosecuted due to the fact they defended themselves with handloaded ammunition. Can you cite a case?

Nope - and I'm not going to bother with finding you cases, but I expect they're out there for anyone who wants to do the extra homework.  I was instructed by an experienced attorney who had been on the prosecution side as well as the defense side of personal defense shootings.  He said I'd be amazed at what the prosecution would do to twist the facts to cause an ignorant jury to think that anyone who handloads is a terrorist or a kook.  And since I meet a lot of people who think that way ... and they'd be the likely ones making up the 'jury of my peers', I think the advice stands on its logical merits.  Another reason that there's a very select few number of folks - inner circle only - that know that I reload.    Buying an occasional box of factory PD ammo seems like cheap insurance.  

 

Al Gore inventing the internet ... that's a different argument altogether.

Edited November 30, 2013 by TNSovereignty

[Dolomite_supafly]

DLM37015 has went through the hassle of shooting someone with hand loads.

I carried hand loads until I heard his story. Now I only use factory ammo and keep the box until I rotate it.

[mikegideon]

Nope - and I'm not going to bother with finding you cases, but I expect they're out there for anyone who wants to do the extra homework.  I was instructed by an experienced attorney who had been on the prosecution side as well as the defense side of personal defense shootings.  He said I'd be amazed at what the prosecution would do to twist the facts to cause an ignorant jury to think that anyone who handloads is a terrorist or a kook.  And since I meet a lot of people who think that way ... and they'd be the likely ones making up the 'jury of my peers', I think the advice stands on its logical merits.  Another reason that there's a very select few number of folks - inner circle only - that know that I reload.    Buying an occasional box of factory PD ammo seems like cheap insurance.  

 

Al Gore inventing the internet ... that's a different argument altogether.

 

So... if we're counting on the stupidity of the public at large, how are they gonna know it was a hand load unless you tell them? Sure, it can be obvious... or not.

[mikegideon]

DLM37015 has went through the hassle of shooting someone with hand loads.

I carried hand loads until I heard his story. Now I only use factory ammo and keep the box until I rotate it.

 

I thought that was a civil case. And... a lot crankier caliber than a .45

Edited November 30, 2013 by mikegideon

[chances R]

Exactly.  Take the Zimmerman case.  If there had been any pistol modifications ( trigger job with a 2# pull) or the use of the 'souped-up nuclear tipped' Zombied proof reload, the Defense would have  exploited that to no end.  I have to trust those who have been expert witnesses, such as Ayoob, and simply take his word and advise when it comes to these matters.  He says use what local LEO use and that's good enough for me.

[chances R]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND81tMeggdM

 

This is somewhat relevant but with 9mm which is known for its 'shoot-throughs'

Edited November 30, 2013 by chances R

[Dolomite_supafly]

Here are a bunch of videos showing 45 ACP. Unfortunately there isn't any FMJ for comparison. The squares the gelatin are sitting on are 1" so most of these blocks are 10" long.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns_files/45ACPSlowMotionvideo.htm

And here are the same videos with 9mm. The difference is there IS a FMJ in the bunch.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns_files/9x19mmSlowMotion.htm

 

And in case anyone was curious about other pistol calibers.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns.htm

Or rifle calibers:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Rifles.htm

Or shotguns:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Shotguns.htm

[gregintenn]

DLM37015 has went through the hassle of shooting someone with hand loads.

I carried hand loads until I heard his story. Now I only use factory ammo and keep the box until I rotate it.

I haven't heard David's story. I'd like to. Would you have a link if it's posted on here?

[Guest TNSovereignty]

So... if we're counting on the stupidity of the public at large, how are they gonna know it was a hand load unless you tell them? Sure, it can be obvious... or not.

If?  IF???  Like this is a possibility?  More like an absolute fact of life, ain't it?

 

Yes ... gun owners are up against public ignorance, who make up gullible juries.  Why would anyone assume a potential prosecuting attorney would be similarly stupid?  A zealous attorney, working to make a political mark for himself, will likely be savvy, shrewd, and inscrutable.  They'll have their 'evidence' ... your gun, and the magazine (or cylinder) with the unfired rounds.  Progressive attorney (and the media) loves cases with gun 'fanatics' ... and that's anyone with powder/primer/brass & press.  

 

Get factory ammo for PD & be done with it.  Handload for match, play & hunting.  

[Junkstack]

None other than the Federal HST

[charlessummers]

If you have never had any issues they should be fine.

I have used these for many years in various calibers. Never had a issue with any of them; worked fine in every 1911 I have had.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/368552/federal-premium-personal-defense-ammunition-45-acp-230-grain-hydra-shok-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-20

 

This is what I picked up this afternoon. The Glock liked them... although I only fired a few of them. I feel confident that if/when needed, they'll do just fine.

[jaysouth]

I've read this since Al Gore invented the internet, but I've yet to see a case in which someone was prosecuted due to the fact they defended themselves with handloaded ammunition. Can you cite a case?

You a trouble-maker!! (LOL)

Actually, those advocating factory ammo only can only cite a case where a spouse committed suicide with a handload that resulted in legal problems for the reloading spouse.

If you have a genuine IDOL (immediate defense of life) shooting, the question of ammo will not arise.

[Dolomite_supafly]

It comes up in court cases. Like I said before DLM37015 had to explain why he used handloads in a shooting.

[GKar]

Back to the OP...Winchester Ranger SXT 230gr RA45T.