An NFA trust question that I think I know the answer to.

[Luke E.]

 I currently own no NFA items or firearms but I will eventually. I really like the idea of setting up a trust and that has been what I have planned on doing when the time comes but now we have a nitwit in the White House that is rocking that boat. Can I have the trust drawn up now even though I have no NFA items currently that way I have one set up when the time comes to build and/or purchase an NFA item? I just don't want this option to be done away with before I pull the trigger on a can or sbr ect.. 

[Dolomite_supafly]

Just curious. Why a trust?

[Luke E.]

Just curious. Why a trust?

 

 Several reasons but the main reason for me is that it will allow others beside myself to be in possession of any items owned by the trust as well as the ease of passing down items within the trust even if laws governing the sale or transfer of personally owned  NFA items change.

 A few other things are, you get around filing fees, it keeps personal names off and out of most forms and data bases with the exception of tax logs which I understand is the only list that will show the trust and personal names. The way I understand it there are several benefits to going about it this way but my two biggest reasons are the first 2 above. I really want the people of my choosing to be able to possess the items without being at risk.

[Luke E.]

Just curious. Why a trust?

 

 I've also got a good friend who is an attorney and has drafted many NFA trusts in the past. He has offered to draw one up as a favor to me (could have something to do with wanting me to clear off some of his property to build a backstop and range area :rofl: ). 

[cannoncocker]

I see no reason why you wait.  Have the trust drawn up now.  Just make sure your trust doesn't require a schedule of trust assets be incorporated in the trust document.

[Hozzie]

I'm not a lawyer, but here's my two cents.....it doesn't matter if you do it now or later.

 

Without getting into too much detail, a revocable trust is a revocable trust.  You probably have no need for a corporate trust, which means there would be no tax filing necessary.  It has nothing to do with being NFA or anything else whether you can do it now or later.  The issue you are worried about will affect anyone with a trust (of any kind) after the new rules are in place.  This means that anyone that has NFA items now would also have to comply by the new rules when they are implemented when applying for a new stamp.  

 

I don't know about how your guy will do it, but my trustee's and benefactors had to sign notarized documents stating they were a part of the trust and it defined what they were in the trust.  Their names will be in the trust and you will have to supply it to the government, so thier names will be associated with the trust and the NFA items on the trust that you add to Schedule A.  

 

Your reasons are valid for wanting a trust, although one of the items proposed in the new rules is a free transfer to a rightful member of the estate upon death so that is actually an improvement over now.  My main reason for the trust was also so a couple of other people could be in possession legally.  The big change will be requiring fingerprints for anyone in the trust.  So this in an of itself will be for everyone no matter when thier trust was created, now or 10 years ago.

 

So, when the trust is created is irrelevant.  It will be an issue of when you apply for your NFA stamp that dictates the rules you must abide by.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Hozzie

[Dolomite_supafly]

Any transferrable NFA item can be transferred to an heir of the deceased now providing they can legally own it. And the transfer is free on a Form 5. It has been that way for a very long time too.

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/1999/09/090599-openletter-nfa-estate-transfers.html

 

I can see having a trust to allow friends or family to have access to the NFA items but I have asked the ATF several times, in writing, specifically if it gives the trustees unfettered access to NFA items in the trust and they will NOT answer me in writing. I would like to see where the ATF has ruled this to be the case. Also, anyone who has access to the NFA items also has the ability to sell, transfer or destroy those items as well or at least what I have been told by a couple of attorneys I spoke to when I was considering a trust.

 

And the rule change requiring fingerprinting and background of trustees is coming.

 

And one more thing. Since the proposed law change the ATF has not been working on any NEW trust submissions. They said if they did it would require them to go back and do it again except they would have to vet the trustees. So to save work later they are not doing any work on them now.

 

I was going to do a trust until a few of my friends didn't want any part of the NFA stuff tied to them. They are legal and can pass ANY background but prefer to keep the government out of their lives if they can help it. As far as my family they would steal everything I own in a heartbeat and sell it.

 

I say go for it but the benefits a trust once had over Form 1's and Form 4's is about to change.

[Hozzie]

Good info. I know I am the only one allowed to sell any item in my trust unless of course when I die. I guess that part just depends on how your trust is written.

[Luke E.]

Any transferrable NFA item can be transferred to an heir of the deceased now providing they can legally own it. And the transfer is free on a Form 5. It has been that way for a very long time too.

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/1999/09/090599-openletter-nfa-estate-transfers.html

 

I can see having a trust to allow friends or family to have access to the NFA items but I have asked the ATF several times, in writing, specifically if it gives the trustees unfettered access to NFA items in the trust and they will NOT answer me in writing. I would like to see where the ATF has ruled this to be the case. Also, anyone who has access to the NFA items also has the ability to sell, transfer or destroy those items as well or at least what I have been told by a couple of attorneys I spoke to when I was considering a trust.

 

And the rule change requiring fingerprinting and background of trustees is coming.

 

And one more thing. Since the proposed law change the ATF has not been working on any NEW trust submissions. They said if they did it would require them to go back and do it again except they would have to vet the trustees. So to save work later they are not doing any work on them now.

 

I was going to do a trust until a few of my friends didn't want any part of the NFA stuff tied to them. They are legal and can pass ANY background but prefer to keep the government out of their lives if they can help it. As far as my family they would steal everything I own in a heartbeat and sell it.

 

I say go for it but the benefits a trust once had over Form 1's and Form 4's is about to change.

 

 If I were wanting one specifically for any other reason other than friends and family named in the trust being able to be in possession of them your info would probably change my mind. That sucks that they feel the need to bother something that isn't causing a problem but hey, that hasn't stopped this admin from doing anything else so no surprise here. I don't have a problem with any of my family stealing anything,m as a matter of fact there is only one great aunt and great uncle that are in desperate times and they still would give me the shirts off of their back if they thought I needed them so needless to say i'm not concerned with that plus they wouldn't be named in the trust anyhow. It will likely be limited to my wife, father, maybe mother and 1-2 really close friends that I trust completely. 

 If you have a trust, is the wait time just as long as an individual?

[Hozzie]

Yes

[Luke E.]

Yes

 

 Thanks, I have read some places that say it doesn't take quite as long (Not immediate but not as long) and I have read other places stating that it takes the same amount of time. 

[Dolomite_supafly]

It is about to get longer because they have to do backgrounds on all the trustees. Maybe in the past it might have been quicker but I doubt it.

[Luke E.]

It is about to get longer because they have to do backgrounds on all the trustees. Maybe in the past it might have been quicker but I doubt it.

 

 Well quicker would have been nice but not my purpose.. So are you meaning that they will not only be fingerprinting all new trustees but all existing trustees from all existing trusts?

[Hozzie]

Yeah, any excuse to make it tougher and take longer they will. As crazy as it sounds it may speed up things if less people want to deal with the hassle.

[Luke E.]

Yeah, any excuse to make it tougher and take longer they will. As crazy as it sounds it may speed up things if less people want to deal with the hassle.

 

 Sad isn't it.. My number one thing that I want to do is to build my own suppressor and it is irritating to have to wait so long just so that you can make something yourself, using your own tools and equipment, in your own shop and all on your own property! I really don't think we are as free as we think we are... 

[Dolomite_supafly]

 Well quicker would have been nice but not my purpose.. So are you meaning that they will not only be fingerprinting all new trustees but all existing trustees from all existing trusts?

Everyone will be required to submit to a background and fingerprints. There was some debate on whether it will be retroactive but the second the law goes into affect it will be required for all new submissions.

[Luke E.]

Everyone will be required to submit to a background and fingerprints. There was some debate on whether it will be retroactive but the second the law goes into affect it will be required for all new submissions.

 

 Good to know.

[CQB Elite]

If BATFE is not processing trust applications then why did they start an electronic filing system for those using a trust?

http://www.hammerheadweapons.com/shorter-waits-with-nfa-trusts_a/260.htm

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[Dolomite_supafly]

If BATFE is not processing trust applications then why did they start an electronic filing system for those using a trust?

http://www.hammerheadweapons.com/shorter-waits-with-nfa-trusts_a/260.htm

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Those are not working for trusts. Trust me when I say it has already been tried by some on here.

 

Anyone is welcome to call the ATF to verify.

[CQB Elite]

Those are not working for trusts. Trust me when I say it has already been tried by some on here.

Anyone is welcome to call the ATF to verify.

Oh, I believe you. As a former gov't LEO agent (state) myself and having worked for an agency with industry regulation authority, I think BATFE would be hard pressed if they pigeon hole apps submitted with a trust pending a change in law or administrative procedure.

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[Dolomite_supafly]

The examiner may have been spouting off but I find no reason to say that to someone who is a month out from getting his forms.

 

Now some of the "pre" examiners are full of crap. I mean to the brim with some of it spilling out they are so full of it. Been told some pretty stupid things.

 

BTW, our examiner for Tennessee is not going to be our examiner for much longer. I have no clue who the replacement is but I hope ours isn't retiring. If so it will lead to more slow downs.

 

I find it funny that the only agency that actually has the ability to make money is doing everything it can to keep it from happening. I mean if they had the ability to speed the process up they would generate a lot more revenue. Heck if they could do a frequent flyer program for those who are already vetted I would submit $1,000 in forms.

[Luke E.]

The examiner may have been spouting off but I find no reason to say that to someone who is a month out from getting his forms.

Now some of the "pre" examiners are full of crap. I mean to the brim with some of it spilling out they are so full of it. Been told some pretty stupid things.

BTW, our examiner for Tennessee is not going to be our examiner for much longer. I have no clue who the replacement is but I hope ours isn't retiring. If so it will lead to more slow downs.

I find it funny that the only agency that actually has the ability to make money is doing everything it can to keep it from happening. I mean if they had the ability to speed the process up they would generate a lot more revenue. Heck if they could do a frequent flyer program for those who are already vetted I would submit $1,000 in forms.

That would far to logical man.