Contemplating an AR

[Will H]

I never thought I would say this...  I am thinking about getting an AR.  For all my love of leverguns and revolvers I am finding the lack of a defensive rifle concerning.  I was hoping y'all might have some advice.  My experience with the AR is totally restricted to the military, so I don't know much about one other than how to shoot it and clean it.

 

MONEY IS AN OBJECT.  This must be as low cost as possible.  I am not saying that I don't want to spend a good amount of cash, just saying that I cannot afford to.  $700 is it.

 

Aside from money, it is also important to me that the lower is Alum and not poly.  I also want a flat top.

 

I have been looking at two options.

 

#1. DPMS Oracle. 

 http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/70770/DPMS+Oracle+Semi-Automatic+223+Remington5.56+NATO+30%2B1+Cap

 

#2.  Del-Ton M4 rifle kit.

https://www.del-ton.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=RKT100-C

 

I would then have to get a lower, of course.

 

Opinions?  Other options?

 

Also, what difference does a 1:7 or a 1:9 barrel make?

[glock55]

Ck rock river arms they have a good sell going on now. Between myself and sons we own 5 rock rivers and they have been great guns. Never any problems

[CM1021]

Check out Palmetto State Armory. For the price you can't beat them. Also wait til black Friday. They put some great deals on the interwebs...

[Dolomite_supafly]

Check your local Walmart. I have seen DPMS for as low as $547. Their everyday price is $597. DPMS is not a hard use gun but is great for some who only shoots a few mags a month.

They also sell Windhams which are made by the same factory and people who made Bushmasters before they were bought by Cerebus. Price on the Windhams run $647-$697 depending on model.

Walmart also sells S&W ARs. The cheapest versions run ~$697 as well.

Black Friday is coming and a few years ago Walmart was selling SIG AR's for CHEAP. I can't recall the exact price but I want to say they were a little over $500.

All these are if you want to make one purchase and have a warranty in case something goes wrong. Nothing wrong with piecing a gun together either to spread the cost out over a period of time.

And even if your Walmart doesn't have the AR you want they can order it with a down payment of 50%. All you need is the UPC and they can do the rest.

[jcluff]

some sub-$700 deals

http://www.woodburyoutfitters.com/product_p/a30012.htm

http://grabagun.com/mossberg-sons-inc-65011-mmr-quad-fixed-223-16-blk.html

http://www.firearmsforsale.com/dpms-firearms-llc/firearms/rifles/rflrwcp-sportical-ar-10-sa-308-rem-16in-19plus1-pos-stk-black/ (AR-10 for under $900. I know it doesn't fit the bill to your price range but it is a semi auto 308)

http://grabagun.com/firearms/ar/complete-ar-rifles/american-tactical-imports-omni-5-56-16-30rd-1.html

http://www.slickguns.com/product/mossberg-mmr-hunter-223-rem-rifle-20-barrel-5-round-black-67799-free-shipping



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[McGarrett]

I have had good luck with RGuns, http://www.rguns.net/, and PSA, http://palmettostatearmory.com/. I have bought uppers from both. I have a polymer lower on the Rguns upper and I am waiting for the TGO lowers to arrive for the PSA upper I just bought. Just watch out, it's additive.

[Will H]

Thanks for the links and advise.  Looks like there are more to choose from then I thought.  I am thinking that I like the idea of a warranty, so looks like I am going to buy instead of assemble, at least the first one.

[jcluff]

Here are some uppers you can put on a PSA blemish complete lower for a very solid rifle. I have used the blemished stuff and it can be down right difficult to find the blemishes and they are only cosmetic. The complete lower: http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/featured/psa-ar-15-complete-blem-lower-magpul-moe-edition-black-no-magazine.html Complete uppers for under $500 http://www.surplusammo.com/saa-complete-16-1-8-mid-length-dragons-head-hbar-ar-15-upper-receiver-with-nickel-boron-carrier-5-56/. Nickel boron bolt carrier group. Requires less lubrication. Also 1-8 twist will stabilize nearly any weight/length .223 or 5.56 round you put down the barrel, up to 77gr. http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/a3-16-free-float-upper.aspx Edited November 17, 2013 by jcluff

[Guest Riciticky]

Remember if you buy at walmart you also pay tax.

[jcluff]

I had about 5 more uppers listed but my client messed up. Just go to slickguns.com and search for complete upper. Be willing to go back a few months and you will find some good deals.

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[dcloudy777]

It's definitely a buyer's market right now. Palmetto State is pretty unbeatable when they offer their "deals". I ordered an excellent "kit" to complete a lower my brother bought a couple years ago. 1-7" twist chrome lined barrel, flattop upper, all good stuff for under 5 bills shipped. He'll have a hair over $600 in the gun when it gets done.
IMHO, the "stripped lower plus kit" route is the way to go right now.

[gregintenn]

Look at the Smith and Wesson Sport. I does not have a forward assist (something you won't likely need anyway), has a 1 in 8 twist barrel, and gets real good reviews from most everybody. It is made by a very well established company, and well within your price range.

[ShamGlock]

The M&P Sport is about as good a rifle as you get for around $650. Past that, sign up for the daily deal e-mail at Palmetto State, they run incredible deals on rifle kits and regularly put blem lowers on sale for $59. If you are patient you can get a great PSA rifle for around $600. 

[Guest Riciticky]

It's definitely a buyer's market right now. Palmetto State is pretty unbeatable when they offer their "deals". I ordered an excellent "kit" to complete a lower my brother bought a couple years ago. 1-7" twist chrome lined barrel, flattop upper, all good stuff for under 5 bills shipped. He'll have a hair over $600 in the gun when it gets done.
IMHO, the "stripped lower plus kit" route is the way to go right now.

This is the cold hard facts.

[Garufa]

Look at the Smith and Wesson Sport. I does not have a forward assist (something you won't likely need anyway), has a 1 in 8 twist barrel, and gets real good reviews from most everybody. It is made by a very well established company, and well within your price range.

 

I don't believe the M&P Sport comes with a 1/8 barrel anymore.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Garufa

[Oh Shoot]

Look at the Smith and Wesson Sport. I does not have a forward assist (something you won't likely need anyway), has a 1 in 8 twist barrel, and gets real good reviews from most everybody. It is made by a very well established company, and well within your price range.

 

I don't believe the M&P Sport comes with a 1/8 barrel anymore.

 

Correct. No longer the killer deal it was. The 5R 1:8 barrel is now standard 6R 1:9.

 

- OS

[Guest Bonedaddy]

Well, crap! I was seriously considering a Sport all because of the 1:8 barrel. Back to the drawin' board.....

[eRay]

I just bought a new S&W Sport on Gunbroker  for $565 plus $35 shipping. No tax just a $35 transfer fee. For the money, the sport can not be beat.

[mikegideon]

Well, crap! I was seriously considering a Sport all because of the 1:8 barrel. Back to the drawin' board.....

 

For somebody that hunts deer in their house shoes, you probably want a Blackout anyway :)

[gregintenn]

Well, crap! I was seriously considering a Sport all because of the 1:8 barrel. Back to the drawin' board.....

I wasn't aware of the change. Anyway, why don't you like a 1 in 9 twist?

[Oh Shoot]

I wasn't aware of the change. Anyway, why don't you like a 1 in 9 twist?

 

Not the best for >62 gr bullets if you expect to use them, on the other hand, is generally preferred for shooting <55gr varmint loads. The 1:8 stabilizes both ends of the spectrum adequately.

 

Main thing though was that the previous barrel on the Sport was really aces, not just the twist rate but the 5R design also. I have three ARs, two have generally well considered 1:7 FN barrels, but my (admittedly relatively unscientific) comparison is that my Sport is the most accurate of the three shooting 55 and 62gr.

 

The real mystery is how SW's perhaps best barrel wound up on their cheapest rifle in the first place.

 

- OS

Edited November 17, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Will H]

Thanks again for all the feedback.  I find I am meow jammed up on choosing between an AR or a bolt gun in .308.  LOL.  Choices, choices.  Damn I love being an American.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Most 9 twist guns will stabilize up to 77 grain out to a couple of hundred yards. I have shot thousands of 69 grain SMK's out of a 9 twist and they have been stable to 400 yards. I am sure they would be stable beyond that but I never checked the farther targets. As a matter of fact the most accurate load in my gun a 24.5 grains of Varget under a 69SMK. It has proven to be a 1/2 MOA shooter. It also worked well in my 9 twist Savage.

 

The change to 7 twist was because of tracers, not because we went from a 55 to a 62 grain bullet. The tracers are a bit longer and would not remain stable in a 9 twist even though they weighed ~62 grain. The 62 grain M855 is perfectly stable in a 9 twist.

 

I shoot 62 grain bullets in my lightweight 12 twist AR and they are stable to 100 yards. I might toss a few at 200 yards the next trip to Norris to see if they are stable to that distance. My gut feeling is they will not be but even if they hit sideways it doesn't make them any less lethal.

 

7 twist will sling the jackets off some lightweight bullets. 8 twist will not but 8 twist will also stabilize any bullet weight that will feed from a magazine. My first choice in twist is ALWAYS 9 twist, second is 12 twist and then 8 twist.

[jcluff]

My first choice in twist is ALWAYS 9 twist, second is 12 twist and then 8 twist.

if you don't mind, I would love to hear your reasons for why your choice is ordered as you have it? I have a 1-7, 1-8 and 1-9 and am curious as to my you order your preferences as you have.

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[Oh Shoot]

There is of course what will "work" and what is closer to "optimum".

 

I always think of the rule of thumb as per this simple diagram:

 

 

Will any of the three twists put any of the bullets on a torso at 100 yards, or even a paper plate? Probably, except possibly for some that the faster twist will literally deform as Dole mentioned.

 

But lots of ballistic testing has shown that 1:7 gives better accuracy for the heavier bullets and 1:9 for the lighter ones, and especially beyond 100 yards.  And of course 1:8 a great compromise between the two. Again, just going for as close to optimum as possible.

 

- OS

Edited November 18, 2013 by Oh Shoot