My Civil War Rifle odyssey (UPDATE AT BOTTOM)

[Guest TankerHC]

Thought I would post this since I know there are a lot of Civil War History fans here. Thought you all may be interested in what I have been doing and how this is playing out.

 

Last September at a big gunshow in York, Pennsylvania, I purchased a rifle. The show was held at the Toyota Center after the gigantic Northeast Outdoor show was cancelled because after the AR ban, every manufacturer, retilaer, boat dealer, fishing dealer, everyone pulled out, cost the city 68 million and so the gun owners held their own show.  Its an 1861 Springfield, Norfolk Contract manufactured in 1863. When I bought it, I wasnt going to buy it. I was looking for something else Civil War related but my cousin kept saying "You had better buy it or your going to regret it". Every time I walked away from the table he ended up moving me back (By walking back with me following) until he convinced me I needed to buy it.

 

Talking to the old man I asked why he was selling it so cheap, $1450. He said he doesnt collect, he just buys and sells and doesnt really care, this one came from an estate sale. I mentioned were only 30 miles from Gettysburg and still in the Gordons Brigade Twin Bridges fight area as well as Early's area of operations before moving into Gettysburg and this rifle with all these people should sell for a lot more. He told me that Gettysburg is a bad place to buy a Civil War rifle, too many tourists buying tons of fakes. This one is real, all correct but the stock. The stock is a replacement.

 

So I bought it. For $1250.

 

Then I came across an opportunity to purchase two rifles. One was a 61 Springfield that was authenticated by the top three authenticators in the country. One of the people, who I know personally, authenticates weapons and Civil War relics for the National Park Service, is an absolute expert and if you go to several of the PS run Battlefield museums, see the weapons and relics, more than likely they were authenticated by him. He personally owns several million dollars worth of relics that you would not believe. One of the guns I was going to buy was a 61 Springfield, that was used by a solider (And the soldier who owned it was known, and the rifle came with his records and photo from the family and a lot of other things), of the 30th Ohio Heavy Artillery, the 30th Ohio was converted to Infantry after their guns were captured, my 3rd great grandfather was on the receiving end of this units rifles during the war and I wanted it, BAD. Its why I put the Ithaca up for sale, I also put up my Norfolk Contract and a couple of other guns elsewhere. I even took it to the show with CZ, lot of people looked but not takers.

 

So I took it home. My $1250 Norfolk Springfield, and stuck it back where I keep it. I was considering this other gun. The 30th Ohio gun wasnt that expensive as far as Civil War authenticated rifles go, but this other one was. To give a small detail, I can say with certainty that it was carried by a member of a unit who engaged a Virginia regiment during Longstreets Assault (Pickets Charge). There is no doubt, if this man says its real and it was there, it was there, he takes a LOT of info into account and does a LOT of research and has access to records the average person doesnt have. If he says it was somewhere or something somewhere is a fake, then you can bank on that too, its a fake. Well on the second gun, based on the History and authentication by the NPS authenticator, you Civil War buffs can about guess the price. And I dont have that kind of money to spend on that kind of gun (One that I would never shoot), but they come up for sale only rarely. So I decided I wanted it, so yesterday I ran 3 guns on gunbroker, the 1911, the Norfolk Contract and an AR. That still wouldnt cover it, but for me this piece of History was well worth giving up some other guns.

 

Well about three hours after I posted it I get a message from a guy who it turns out is one of the biggest collectors and dealers of Civil War firearms in the Country. He is an associate of Dr. James Whisker, Professor Emeritus of Political Science and Civil War Studies at the University of West Virginia and author of many Political and Civil War books including what is considered THE book on Civil War Springfield's.  He told me he sold three Norfolks to Dr. Whisker and should look more closely at that stock, since I had it up as a replacement stock. He didnt think it was a replacement . How can he tell that from a couple of pictures? (Thats what I was thinking). He told me where to look. Then he said I might not be able to see them with the naked eye. When guns went back to the arsenals for repair or after the war to the arsenal, there was usually a lot of sanding on an already worn stock.

 

So I go and look where he tells me. Here is the rifle first, most have seen it but now I have more detail.

 

 

The first thing he tells me to look for is three marks. One is the position where the cartouche would have been. I look and there it is. I knew this one was there, just never gave it any consideration since I automatically assumed when the old man told me it was probably a replacement stock, that it was. But here the first mark is.

So now I'm 1/3rd of the way there.

 

 

Secondly I have to look for the W.W. Welch stamp. He and another guy owned Norfolk Armory in Norwich Connecticut. I had loked for it, eyeballed it, it wasn't there. So at 3 AM Im there looking with a magnifying glass and what do I find? One single letter. So faint Im sorry but I cant get a picture of it. One letter, a W and only three quarters there, but it is there. But Im still thinking, could be a fluke in the wood grain or something. So maybe I am 2/3rd there.

 

Then I am looking for another mark on the left side of the stock. I spent an hour looking and straining with a magnifying glass, my glasses off and on, flashlights, brighter lights. Could not  find it, said its not there. I was using one of those one dollar magnifying glasses from walmart. Piece of crap plastic with a cheap piece of glass. Then while looking around for some way to magnify the grain in the stock, even using a magnifying Android App, which didnt magnify anything, I remembered that just for the heck of it, I bought a dental magnifying glass at the Sale Creek Flea Market last year for 50 cents. but it was packed up in one of those 50 boxes in the basement and I had no idea where it was, (The wife will be really po'd if she goes into the basement to find a bunch of our stuff dumped out and scattered around, going to have to fix that tomorrow), but I found it. Came back up and looked. And here it is. The oval mark on the Contract stocks as seen through a dental magnifier and enhanced to HD, you cannot see this with the naked eye. (HOW DID THAT GUY KNOW THIS WOULD BE THERE WITH NOTHING BUT A GUNBROKER PICTURE?!!). I started looking at other marks, I noticed that original Springfield stocks didnt have the oval but all of the contracts did, some were just an oval, some like Remington were an oval with the logo inside, some were perpendicular to the length of the stock, some were empty and had lettering, the manufacturers initials in front of the oval. This is correct.

 

So now, not only do I have an all correct gun as far as hardware, but now I have a completely correct 61 Springfield Norfolk Contract! The third rarest contract Springfield out of all of them! So I go looking to see what these things sell for, and I find that one in my condition hangs in the Springfield Museum, one recently sold on Antique Arms, in about this condition for almost $5000. Several are going for between $3700 and $4000 and another recently sold for $4750, all correct. I ALMOST sold this gun for 2 grand. In fact I almost sold this gun to a dealer in Cleveland for $1200, but he didnt want it because he believed it was fake. Said too many issues. Thats the difference between someone who knows and someone who doesnt (Like me) but I did dispute the fact based on my limited knowledge and I am GLAD that he thought it was a fake. Here is the oval for final proof that not only is the gun correct but so is the stock.

 

(More below this photo)

 

 

So I am thinking, well now that I know its all original maybe the guy I know will give me something for it towards the other Springfield. So this morning around ten I give him a call, see if he has the other gun, no its sold, but I have this one for sale, then I tell him about my Norfolk, after he tells me about a rare contract gun he has for sale.

 

I tell him there is one issue though, someone, maybe a soldier, gouged out a piece of the stock behind the lock plate screw. And someone else stuck gum or something in there. He had me send him photo's.

 

See this gouge with the gum someone stuck in the whole, thats not a gouge, and thats not gum.

 

THAT GOUGE is the position of the Shield that was allowed to be placed by units of the Union 12th Corps! And that gum isnt gum, that gum is wax used by the armories to fill the hole when the rifle was sent back for repair and covered with varnish!! And I almost pried the GUM off!! And that GUM is supposed to be there! And Norfolk Contracts were only issued to ONE UNIT in the 12th Corps, the 46th Pennsylvania! The XII Corps fought at Cedar Mountain, 1st Winchester, 2nd Bull Run, Gettysburg, South Mounatin, Antietam, Cramptons Gap, Chancellorsville, Chattanooga, Chickamauaga, and moved with Sherman on his march to the Sea!

 

Here's my gouge with the gum.

 

 

Im leaving either Monday morning (If my business is finished) or Tuesday morning to Pennsylvania to put this in his hands and try to get my $1250 fake Civil War Rifle authenticated if not down to Regimental level at least I should be able to get it documented (with expert Documentation) down to Corps level.

 

Follow ups to come. this gun could be the best gun purchase I ever made and probably ever will make.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2014 by TankerHC

[Mark@Sea]

Wow.  Talk about hidden treasures!

[Moped]

Congratulations on such an excellent purchase and even more congratulations on such an excellent hunt for historic truth!!!I would imagine that gun is worth even more to you, because you were the one to discover it's history!!!  Sounds like it's probably on it's way to family heirloom status!!!

[Guest TankerHC]

Congratulations on such an excellent purchase and even more congratulations on such an excellent hunt for historic truth!!!I would imagine that gun is worth even more to you, because you were the one to discover it's history!!! Sounds like it's probably on it's way to family heirloom status!!!

Yep. Not for sale, and won't be ever again. Even if I can't get paper documentation I know what it is so one of my descendents will have to be the one to sell it.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2

[CQB Elite]

Awesome find! Thanks for sharing the story and please update once the authentication is done.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[TripleDigitRide]

Congratulations on the amazing find. Everyone I run across always seems to know exactly what they have, so I have yet to snag find something like that. 

[gregintenn]

So....when are you gonna shoot a deer with it? :D

 

Seriously, congratulations on owning a very interesting piece of our history. That's a nice looking rifle considering what it's likely been through. I'll bet you wish it could talk.

Edited November 10, 2013 by gregintenn

[Monkeyman2500]

Wow, how lucky are you no one took you up on the sale. That rifle is such an amazing find.

[RichardR]

That is awesome Tanker! Congrats man that was a heck of an "accidental" score! LOL.

Very cool piece, definately heirloom worthy ...

[viscero]

Wow, very cool piece of history you have there!

[DaveS]

FYI, there is a Civil War show and sale December 6-8 in Franklin, TN. We'll have our cannons there doing firing demonstrations. I'm not sure yet if I'll be there, but it may be a good time to find some rare and unusual items. It's usually a pretty big show.

 

DaveS

[Caster]

Are you gonna shoot it? I'd HAVE to shoot it. Priceless artifact or not it was built well and built to shoot.

Awesome find.

[Guest Riciticky]

Yep. Not for sale, and won't be ever again. Even if I can't get paper documentation I know what it is so one of my descendents will have to be the one to sell it.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2

Are you sure ya wouldn't trade for my mosin 91/30? He He!  Good find. I wish I had one.

[Guest TankerHC]

Are you sure ya wouldn't trade for my mosin 91/30? He He!  Good find. I wish I had one.

 

Id probably trade for one of R.E. Lee's revolvers. Anyone got one laying around your not using? IN all seriousness, if you (Anyone I mean) want to see something truly incredible in the firearms industry, go look at completed auctions on Rock Island Auctions. In fact go look at whats coming up on Rock Island Auctions. Thing about Rock Island is, although they do auction 5 million dollar guns off, you can actually win some real antiques with some history for 4 or 500 (And less) on their regional auctions. 

Edited November 27, 2013 by TankerHC

[Caster]

Id probably trade for one of R.E. Lee's revolvers. Anyone got one laying around your not using?

I got one! It's sitting on the mantle, on top of my autographed copy of the Bible.

[hipower]

Congratulations, Tanker. I don't think there's any more to be said but ...you did good.

[vr1967]

Great research Tanker.

[173rdABN]

Holy smokes man. Talk about lucky!!! Think you'll ever sell it?

[Guest TankerHC]

Update:

 

I had to take off an come to MD and Pa on some business until Tuesday. Brought the Rifle and took it to the National Park Service Guy for authentication. (Authenticates Civil War relics for the NPS, including everything you see at Gettysburg Museum and his background is in Forensics, plus he personally owns about 30 million dollars in relics).

 

Upon rudimentary examination today at 1 PM, the rifle appears to be 100% original. He pulled out jewelers lenses and started going over the rifle and I was sort of concerned that he was going to find this and that wrong with it. Instead piece by piece he told me how it was correct, including the stock and also including the rod, which is sort of unusual. Its not only an 62 Norfolk Contract, it is a "Transitional" rifle. meaning the lock and plate is original to the gun but was manufactured late in 62 and mated up to a 63 barrel. And this is correct, not a pieced together gun (Which is why it is called transitional). Everything he was doing was explained as he was doing it. The suggestion that it was a XXII Corps gun came from me sending him photographs of the cutout behind the lock plate on top of the stock. On closer examination he seems to be convinced that was incorrect, not XXII Corps but IX Corps due to whatever it is he was looking at. 

 

Yes, you find these guns for $1000-$2000 and a few at even $5000 or so. WHat you wont find is one authenticated like this, by the people who do not accept "Maybe's" but require absolute authenticity because what they deal in costs hundreds of thousands of dollars (Ill post a few photo's of a couple of items he owns and some of the things he deals in) and are authenticated down to Corps level. Even "bring backs" are suspect because they often come with photo's but there were plenty of pickups and not a whole lot with confirmed markings, plus these guns had no seriel numbers. 

 

The gun is now in their possession and they are going in detail over every last piece for authenticity, including every last screw. He will be calling me once it is complete. They take their own photographs.

 

Im still slightly concerned because I dont know how this is going to turn out. For one thing the stock is original to the gun but I know there is a minor issue with it that will be spelled out in the authentication documentation. To put it bluntly, it's what someone with no knowledge does when they get hold of a relic like this. 

 

Im just glad everyone who looked at it (That I tried to sell it to for little to nothing, relatively NOW speaking) were expert enough to tell me why it was a fake.

 

More coming as soon as documentation and photo's are in my possession.

Edited April 5, 2014 by TankerHC

[gun sane]

That's great news, Tanker......not many people get the same treatment by experts.  This should make your prize all the more valuable.  Of course, you still may want to cut 'er down and make a sporter out of it.  :D