3D printing...Well, that escalated quickly.

[RobertNashville]

Absolutely. And they should not be able to do anythng about it. Printing a gun, which is a tool, is the same thing as cutting a limb into a club. In the end all tools should be legal to own and the way bad people use them should be their concern.

 

I am really looking forward to the Montana case that is making its way through the courts. The guy was making and selling firearms without a FFL. He has been arrested and his case will set a precedent that will either validate or invalidate the various "freedom firearms" laws that states have passed. If it does pass the next step will be challenging the NFA process if the item is made within the borders. And I would love nothing more than to walk out into my garage and hacksaw every barrel I own and attach a homemade suppressor.

 

Personally it should be a non issue. Firearms, of any type, should not be regulated any more than a shovel or a screwdriver. If I want to own a machine gun, an anti tank missile or a fighter jet I should be allowed to.

That is a good case...I hope that it reaches SCOTUS before Obama has a chance to replace a justice or two with ones that may be less concerned with constitutionality and more with their agenda (not that anything is predictable with the current court).

[Tempest455]

 

We own and use both a 3D printer and a CNC mill.  Both were purchased for less than $2,000.  

 

You bought a CNC mill for less than $2,000??? 
 

I'm looking at a Bridgeport from the 60's around $3K

 

I would love to hear details on this.

[tnguy]

Can 90% afford one? & its not as easy to use as an inkjet

 

Both points that would apply equally to the Gutenburg printing press.

[tnguy]

I think the 3D printing needs to be recognized for what it is, a political stunt. Guns are easy. I could probably go to my amateur-level workshop and knock up something that would shoot any caliber I should choose from what I have in about an hour.

 

The real tricky part is the rifling. That is tricky to do with regular metal-working tools and not realistic with 3D printing. If someone can come up with a way to do that with tools that are available to your average Joe, that's when things get interesting.

 

Secondary to that are reliability and accuracy in manufacturing. 

[MacGyver]

You bought a CNC mill for less than $2,000???

I'm looking at a Bridgeport from the 60's around $3K

I would love to hear details on this.

It's a desktop 4-axis machine. Bought around 2005.

I'd post a link, but I'm on my phone. It's a Taig mini mill upgraded to CNC capability by MicroProto Systems.

You need to talk to a used equipment dealer in a major market like Atlanta. There are still some deals out there.

I learned on a mid 60's bridgeport. Great machines.

[MacGyver]

I think the 3D printing needs to be recognized for what it is, a political stunt. Guns are easy. I could probably go to my amateur-level workshop and knock up something that would shoot any caliber I should choose from what I have in about an hour.

The real tricky part is the rifling. That is tricky to do with regular metal-working tools and not realistic with 3D printing. If someone can come up with a way to do that with tools that are available to your average Joe, that's when things get interesting.

Secondary to that are reliability and accuracy in manufacturing.

Rifling isn't necessary when you're talking Archduke Ferdinand distances that get the political class all itchy.

[JayC]

That is today, these printers are going to be as commonplace as an inkjet printer is 10 years from now...  So why go spend the afternoon building a zip gun by hand, when the printer can crank one out overnight?  And I doubt it costs $25 worth of plastic to do it.

 

You also have to understand there is an entire generation of people who can't even use a screw driver...  those people don't even know where the hardware store is let alone what to go pickup to build a zip gun.

 

The .dxf file that generates the print file is exactly the same as the .dxf file that generates the g-code for a milling machine.

 

I'm excited to see all of the popular support for 3D printing as it's dropping costs and promoting innovation. 

 

But don't kid yourself.  This is not an amazing new way to manufacture a gun.  People who want a gun that can't be traced buy one off the street.  People who are looking for one-shot zip guns like the Liberator aren't going to print one.  They're going to go to the hardware store, spend $25, and make their own out in the garage with nothing more than a few hand tools.

Edited November 8, 2013 by JayC

[tnguy]

Rifling isn't necessary when you're talking Archduke Ferdinand distances that get the political class all itchy.

 

True. But then we're back to basic metalworking.

[Oh Shoot]

Okay...thanks for clearing that up...I guess it's just with intent to sell (or actually selling) where the law steps in.

 

It's not about when you decide to sell.  It's simply unlawful to be "engaged in the business of selling firearms without a license".

 

from 18 USC § 921 - Definitions:

 

"The term “engaged in the business” means—

 

as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms"
 

"The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection."

 

So according to the law, perfectly legal to intend to sell a firearm you are buying or making, as long as the principal objective is not "livelihood and profit".

 

- OS

Edited November 8, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[jcluff]

Shapeoko - CNC mill for less than $700 https://www.inventables.com/technologies/desktop-cnc-mill-kits-shapeoko-2 However, this would be amazing to own http://makezine.com/2013/09/23/pocketnc-an-affordable-five-axis-cnc/ Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Edited November 8, 2013 by jcluff

[MacGyver]

True. But then we're back to basic metalworking.

I actually think in the case of the gun printed above they printed the barrel with rifling.

But, it's worth picking up a copy of Foxfire 5. It's got a couple hundred pages of old school flintlock making with great descriptions of how they rifled their handmade barrels.

I'm not saying the average joe is going to start rifling his own barrels; just that it's worth it to learn how they used to do it.

[mikegideon]

I actually think in the case of the gun printed above they printed the barrel with rifling.

But, it's worth picking up a copy of Foxfire 5. It's got a couple hundred pages of old school flintlock making with great descriptions of how they rifled their handmade barrels.

I'm not saying the average joe is going to start rifling his own barrels; just that it's worth it to learn how they used to do it.

 

Button rifling is just a piece of tooling that's pulled through the bore, right? I wonder when these politicians are going to realize that they don't have near as much power over people as they think.

[MacGyver]

Button rifling is just a piece of tooling that's pulled through the bore, right? I wonder when these politicians are going to realize that they don't have near as much power over people as they think.

Correct. It's a pretty simple tool with a jig to index it and make sure it turns at the proper twist rate.

[Guest TankerHC]

Wow, impressive. Now that its possible, once the price of these printers comes down to $30 and the Razor and Blade business model kicks in, our 1911's will be worth 4 times as much as a glock rather than just twice as much.

[peejman]

I think the 3D printing needs to be recognized for what it is, a political stunt. Guns are easy. I could probably go to my amateur-level workshop and knock up something that would shoot any caliber I should choose from what I have in about an hour.

 

The real tricky part is the rifling. That is tricky to do with regular metal-working tools and not realistic with 3D printing. If someone can come up with a way to do that with tools that are available to your average Joe, that's when things get interesting.

 

Secondary to that are reliability and accuracy in manufacturing. 

 

 

3D printing rifling inside a bore is not a problem.  Think of the barrel sitting vertically.  Just start from the bottom print your way up the length.  One of the primary benefits of 3D printing is the ability to make complex internal passages that can't be near-net cast.

 

I took the photo below at the Advanced Manufacturing Lab at ORNL during a tour a while back (yes, they said we could take pictures).  The block on the left was cast and machined and cut in half.  The block on the right was printed and cut in half.  Both are titanium.  The printed block weighs about half as much as the cast block.  

 

 

 

 

 

I've also seen, but wasn't allowed to take pictures of, gas turbine blades with internal cooling passages that were fully 3D printed.  They look something like this...

 

[Jonnin]

Rifling, i have often wondered if it would be worth making a smoothbore 9mm (for example) self defense pistol.   Or handloads for one that were "off" on purpose.   Tumbled rounds are crap for accuracy but talking 10, 15 feet defense shot here, it will hit the torso and then do things that would make a JHP seem bland.  But the point is, for defense, rifling could very well be optional at the "few yards" distance...

[tnguy]

Certainly at the few-yards range. That's what zip guns are all about, of course. That might be enough to get you a rifle.

[Guest TankerHC]

In all seriousness (As opposed to my last post), the Razor and Blade model is a real Business model. And the cost of 3D printers is already set to go down because the industry has already decided. You can go buy an Inkjet Printer new today for $30. But the ink to fill it will cost you twice that much, each time, in most cases.

 

The reason the industry has already decided is because a French Company designed the 3D software to print out the Boeing Dreamliner parts. That same Company has decided to start selling 3D printers on the open market and decided to start selling the required materials.

 

These small startups  that are now crowd sourcing cheap 3D printers are going to be rich. Remember just 35 years ago plain dot matrix printers, then inkjets were super expensive. Offices wouldnt even buy an Injet or a portable. The fricken ARMY wouldnt even spend the money because "no one needs a printer for an office, just one will do", no one needs a printer in every cubicle because one per office will do" then no one needs a printer at their disk because one in each office is expensive enough" then "no one will ever put a printer in their house because they are two expensive"...im sure everyone gets it.

 

In the mid 90's he cheapest x86 computer you could buy was around $3000 (One that cold do anything). You can get 100 times that same Computer today for $300. Now go to the store and start buying software.

 

Thats the razor and blade model. And its coming SOON with all of this technology. That decision has been made. Which is why that French Company who will be the first to launch has had a high "buy" rating for about a year now, since that announcement. And which the current computer market prediction is these tiny two man operations are going to be super rich.

 

Remember, 2 guys built an Apple in their garage and a College dropout owns Microsoft.

 

Tech is flying at light speed, and some people are going to get super rich and it isnt going to take much investment to do it.

 

if I knew someone who was really REALLY good with CAD, I would do it. But I dont, so Im teaching myself. And learning the proper way to crowd source. Which is why I asked here, forget guns, about the market for gun "parts" and accessories".

 

All you need is ONE good idea, or an improvement on an product or idea. Just ask Richard Fitzpatrick.

Edited November 8, 2013 by TankerHC

[JayC]

Tanker, just one correction...  That $3000 computer from 1990's can be replaced with a raspberry pi for $35, and it's still well more than 100 time faster than the 1990's PC.

 

Otherwise I agree with you completely, these printers (and CNC machines) will continue to drop in price.  And they will become commonplace in businesses and homes over the course of the next 10-15 years...

Edited November 8, 2013 by JayC

[tnguy]

Meh, network printers still make sense in an office. Personal ones (unless they are specialty) is just a dumb status thing for execs.

[Guest TankerHC]

Meh, network printers still make sense in an office. Personal ones (unless they are specialty) is just a dumb status thing for execs.

Not quite the point. The point being the business model. But there are plenty of big businesses that keep printers going around the clock and require multiple printers, check printer's, invoice printer's, card printers and a few more in a single office.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2

[Dolomite_supafly]

Meh, network printers still make sense in an office. Personal ones (unless they are specialty) is just a dumb status thing for execs.

Not really. Do you really want to find your termination papers sitting on the public printer?

 

If I were to make a smoothbore pistol it would not be loaded with a jacketed bullet. It would be loaded the same way they were 200+ years ago, with soft lead round ball. A soft led bullet will expand larger than most jacketed bullets. The reason for jacketed bullets, at least initially, was to make feeding more reliable in auto loaders. Now they help with expansion, as in reducing the amount of expansion to ensure they get enough penetration.

[mikegideon]

Meh, network printers still make sense in an office. Personal ones (unless they are specialty) is just a dumb status thing for execs.

 

We use a mix at my offices. Too much confidential stuff at the executive level to use community printers for everything. I use a networked 4000 series Lasejet at home for all my printing. I hate maintaining printers, and not about to stick cheesey ones on all my machines.

[tnguy]

We use a mix at my offices. Too much confidential stuff at the executive level to use community printers for everything. I use a networked 4000 series Lasejet at home for all my printing. I hate maintaining printers, and not about to stick cheesey ones on all my machines.

 

We use a mix at my offices. Too much confidential stuff at the executive level to use community printers for everything. I use a networked 4000 series Lasejet at home for all my printing. I hate maintaining printers, and not about to stick cheesey ones on all my machines.

 

Confidential networked printer? C'mon guys, this isn't rocket surgery?

 

The problem becomes Sue in HR needs a confidential printer cause she needs to fire that Dolomite guy who just can't hold a job down ( ;) ). Bob, the VP of paperclips figures he outranks Sue so he needs to have a printer too cause the Viagra just ain't cutting it like it used to. Then everyone at his level has to have one and before you know it, the only people without a printer, six 42" widescreen monitors, laptops and a standby Swedish Masseuse are the low-level working SOBs who could actually use them.

Edited November 8, 2013 by tnguy

[Guest TankerHC]

Confidential networked printer? C'mon guys, this isn't rocket surgery?

The problem becomes Sue in HR needs a confidential printer cause she needs to fire that Dolomite guy who just can't hold a job down ( ;) ). Bob, the VP of paperclips figures he outranks Sue so he needs to have a printer too cause the Viagra just ain't cutting it like it used to. Then everyone at his level has to have one and before you know it, the only people without a printer, six 42" widescreen monitors, laptops and a standby Swedish Masseuse are the low-level working SOBs who could actually use them.

This is humorous. Because it's true. Lol

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