Who qualifies for God Given Rights

[Spiffy]

I see a lot of Atheists on message boards wanting to claim their GOD given right to self defense. It stuck me in the shower (where I do all my good thinking) that if your wanting to claim a right endowed by your Creator that you probably should believe in said Creator to get that right. Maybe they just go with the whole 14th Amendment Citizen idea. 

 

It's a good academic exercise to think about isn't it. Where do our rights come from and what is required to claim them. 

[JGunner]

At one level, I think we all have the right to "live" ... therefore, if someone steps up and tries to take this away from you, you have a right to defend yourself.  Just because we are here and "living" is the main thing we all do (until we die that is).

 

I see this as a basic human right ... if you believe in a Creator, then it was given to you by Him because He put us here for whatever reason(s) He chose.  If you do not believe in a creator, then it's just part of why we are here, which without a creator, who knows  ... we are just floating around on this 3rd rock from the sun, and everyone has a right to "be alive" as long as that right doesn't infringe upon another human's right.  

 

Where is this line crossed?  If food is scarce in a post-apocalyptic world, does someone stealing from your garden constitute an attempt on your life?  I think many of us would say yes.  However, the thief was also possibly trying to exercise his right to live assuming he was starving at the time.

 

What about the way things are now in our current society?  Obviously legally you can't shoot a thief, and I would argue that in our current situation, food is relatively easy to come by, so therefore it's not really an infringement on your right to "live" if someone takes some food from you.

 

Not sure I'm exactly explaining myself, but you posed a good question and I thought I would try to add my $.02 or (at least $.01).

 

(And this is all a hypothetical argument, I'm not endorsing or suggesting we start shooting thieves).

 

In summary, I think certain rights are endowed on us because we are creatures on this planet, and you shouldn't have to do anything to claim them. 

 

Good post to get me thinking in the morning.  Thanks.

[E4 No More]

I see a lot of Atheists on message boards wanting to claim their GOD given right to self defense. It stuck me in the shower (where I do all my good thinking) that if your wanting to claim a right endowed by your Creator that you probably should believe in said Creator to get that right. Maybe they just go with the whole 14th Amendment Citizen idea. 

 

It's a good academic exercise to think about isn't it. Where do our rights come from and what is required to claim them. 

I don't want to know about you getting stuck in the shower. Please keep your sex life to yourself. :)

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I didn't know of a test for rights, according to the Constitution. That's a difficult question to answer. I, personally,

consider all to have the same rights as I, until they do something to abridge those rights.

 

The internet is also full of people(?) asserting themselves as atheists. I don't pay much attention to that, so my

opinion is of little value.

[TrickyNicky]

Everyone qualifies. They are natural rights. No need to subscribe to any one religious philosophy or even any at all. Some believe their creator to be God, others believe in a combination of actions and reactions, mutations and evolvements. Maybe both are right and God set the evolutionary ball rolling, who knows?

Either way its got nothing to do with my rights as an American.

[JGunner]

Everyone qualifies. They are natural rights. No need to subscribe to any one religious philosophy or even any at all. Some believe their creator to be God, others believe in a combination of actions and reactions, mutations and evolvements. Maybe both are right and God set the evolutionary ball rolling, who knows?

Either way its got nothing to do with my rights as an American.

 

I think what you say here is similar to what I was thinking, only you stated it in a much more concise and eloquent way.

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

Its really kind of ignorant to think that if you do not believe in God , you ought not be able to defend yourself...

Nothing is required to be able to do so..

 

and actualy.. it would be the 1st amendment.. freedom of religion.I can chose whoever I want to believe in and still have the same right.

.religion is made of many different things. If I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster..I still have a right to defend myself.

 

Religion /lack thereof should not even be in consideration when one needs to defend themselves.

I am a Agnostic Theist..But I do not go around and say its my God given right to do this or that ..I think that I have the right to defend myself because I have a right to be not harmed and I do not harm others

Edited November 7, 2013 by Sour Kraut

[Mike.357]

I have the right to self defense as well as other rights simply because I exist.

 

I would need to know which god gave me those rights if I was going to claim that they are god given.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Protecting yourself might be a "God given right" but the ability use a firearm was given to us by a man made document. The 2nd Ammendment is not a right but a priviledge given to us by our founding fathers. A right is something that cannot be taken away by man. The ability to use a firearm to defend yourself can be taken away just as easily as it was given. There will be a day when there will be a Constitutional Convention to remove or alter the 2nd Ammendment. And by the simple fact it can be taken makes it a priviledge.

 

There are tons of countries around the world where someone cannot use a firearm in self defense so that is not a right given by the creator, if there is one.

 

Also, if it is a "God given right" who's God gave them that right. Was the Hindu God or the Muslim God?

[thundersnow]

It's a pretty simple equation. If you infringe on the rights of others then you give up your own...

[Chucktshoes]

Protecting yourself might be a "God given right" but the ability use a firearm was given to us by a man made document. The 2nd Ammendment is not a right but a priviledge given to us by our founding fathers. A right is something that cannot be taken away by man. The ability to use a firearm to defend yourself can be taken away just as easily as it was given. There will be a day when there will be a Constitutional Convention to remove or alter the 2nd Ammendment. And by the simple fact it can be taken makes it a priviledge.

 

There are tons of countries around the world where someone cannot use a firearm in self defense so that is not a right given by the creator, if there is one.

 

Also, if it is a "God given right" who's God gave them that right. Was the Hindu God or the Muslim God?

Gonna have to call BS on that. The 2A grants nothing, it only acknowledges a natural right of self defense, and specifically the tools to effectively mount that defense. The government, any government, can make whatever laws they choose. It has no bearing on my rights. The 2A, like the rest of the first 8 amendments, enumerates negative rights that are intended to prevent infringement by the government. However anything one claims as a right is only a right as long as they are willing to defend it. So if those rights aren't defended it doesn't mean that they were a privilege taken by the government who granted them, but rights willingly surrendered by a people unwilling to defend what was always theirs.

[bersaguy]

Well this is really a complicated discussion for sure but then just because a person claims to be an atheist does not truly make it so. During my time in Nam I met a very strongly out spoken atheist. Well it came a time during a  major fire fight that he was mortally wounded and I was able to reach him and speak with him in his last moments and he spent his last few minutes and he looked at me and asked me if I thought GOD would forgive him for his actions while here on earth as he was born into a christian home and only later converted. I told him that GOD is a very loving and forgiving GOD and I thought he would be forgiven by God and I don't know if he heard it all but I can only hope he did. I think that many people claiming to be an atheist are mainly just trying to draw attention to them selves and are not really what they claim to be. When you ask them how they came to be on the earth most cannot truly explain it................jmho

[BigK]

I'm of the opinion that in our country at least, our founding fathers considered the items listed in the Bill of Rights to be God-given rights that man cannot take away.

 

Whether they did or didn't envision a time where we as a nation would be bullied into sanitizing our world of all aspects of religion is irrelevant. The rights don't change, nor does any person's (atheists included) ability to exercise them.

[Mike.357]

. When you ask them how they came to be on the earth most cannot truly explain it................jmho

 

 

I got here because my father and mother got busy with it one night.

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

Well this is really a complicated discussion for sure but then just because a person claims to be an atheist does not truly make it so. During my time in Nam I met a very strongly out spoken atheist. Well it came a time during a  major fire fight that he was mortally wounded and I was able to reach him and speak with him in his last moments and he spent his last few minutes and he looked at me and asked me if I thought GOD would forgive him for his actions while here on earth as he was born into a christian home and only later converted. I told him that GOD is a very loving and forgiving GOD and I thought he would be forgiven by God and I don't know if he heard it all but I can only hope he did. I think that many people claiming to be an atheist are mainly just trying to draw attention to them selves and are not really what they claim to be. When you ask them how they came to be on the earth most cannot truly explain it................jmho

I guess I am the one :) 

Well .. just because someone says there is a God.. it doesn't make it so.. right?

It goes both ways. You cant  say that just because I say I am a Theist or whatnot it doesn't make it so.. and I usually avoid telling people this because of people like you. Has nothing to do with drawing attention to myself.. if anything  I dont tell anyone this .You have proven that with the second to last sentence

I know how I got here.. no doubt about it.If you believe it or not.. Its your  opinion.But you have to be able to respect mine and I respect yours also.But dont assume :)

[Mike.357]

 God and I don't know if he heard it all but I can only hope he did.

 

why wouldn't he have been heard?

[jacob]

Protecting yourself might be a "God given right" but the ability use a firearm was given to us by a man made document. The 2nd Ammendment is not a right but a priviledge given to us by our founding fathers. A right is something that cannot be taken away by man. The ability to use a firearm to defend yourself can be taken away just as easily as it was given. There will be a day when there will be a Constitutional Convention to remove or alter the 2nd Ammendment. And by the simple fact it can be taken makes it a priviledge.

IMHO I must also disagree on this point. Our founders recognized the right of self defense and preservation of liberty and found it important enough that they included it in a document that could only be altered by us. If the right of bearing arms in defense of tyranny is ever relinquished, it will be by the citizens of this country. Not because the govt just decides one day we dont deserve it anymore. Once again IMHO, the mindset of this amendment being a given privelage by our govt is the main problem we are clinging to what we have left of the right in the present day. People think the govt grants us what we are given. If our founders had believed that we would still be considered a part of the UK.

As for your comment about a right is something that cannot be taken by a man, let me ask you this. What rights do you have that cant be taken away by a man?? You have none if you arent willing to fight for them. And last I checked, evil men and govt have been known throughout history to take the rights of those who arent willing to fight for them...would you rather fight with your fist or with your AR??

[Jonnin]

I have often taken issue with people that claim our constitution provides "god given" rights.   Best I can recall, the authors were MEN.  Also, best I can recall, they left in place a process to modify the document in case they messed something up, a deity would not need this.   They may, or may not, have been divinely inspired.   They were, um, a 'colorful' lot however and um, 'difficult' to see as holy men or prophets or something of that nature.  Also, prophets generally announce themselves as such.  And, generally, if referring to the christian concept and history, it seems unlike HIM to encourage freedom of religion?

 

I don't argue that we have god-given (or, if you prefer, "for existing") rights, just saying that the constitution is a work of man. 

 

 

----------

Breaking it down, these rights are given, and therefore a gift.  All people get them, free, as a gift.   Kinda like santa, you don't have to believe, but if you get a new bike under the tree that says "from santa" on it, you take the thing and smile.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Jonnin

[jacob]

I have often taken issue with people that claim our constitution provides "god given" rights. Best I can recall, the authors were MEN. Also, best I can recall, they left in place a process to modify the document in case they messed something up, a deity would not need this. They may, or may not, have been divinely inspired. They were, um, a 'colorful' lot however and um, 'difficult' to see as holy men or prophets or something of that nature. Also, prophets generally announce themselves as such. And, generally, if referring to the christian concept and history, it seems unlike HIM to encourage freedom of religion?

I don't argue that we have god-given (or, if you prefer, "for existing") rights, just saying that the constitution is a work of man.

No one said the constitution was not a work of man. The framers were simply stating a belief that men had natural rights that govt didnt grant and couldn't just take away...the individual must decide to relinquish those natural rights of their own volition...

[c.a.willard]

Gonna have to call BS on that. The 2A grants nothing, it only acknowledges a natural right of self defense, and specifically the tools to effectively mount that defense. The government, any government, can make whatever laws they choose. It has no bearing on my rights. The 2A, like the rest of the first 8 amendments, enumerates negative rights that are intended to prevent infringement by the government. However anything one claims as a right is only a right as long as they are willing to defend it. So if those rights aren't defended it doesn't mean that they were a privilege taken by the government who granted them, but rights willingly surrendered by a people unwilling to defend what was always theirs.

 

There are some interesting discussions in the world of U.S. history about this exact thing.  Several of the framers of the constitution did not want a bill of rights for a different reasons.  One of the more interesting reason is that some of our founders felt anything put into the bill of rights is now granted by the government and therefore could be taken away by the same government. 

 

From a legal standpoint dolomite's argument rings true, by passing the amendments they became codified as US law and laws can be rewritten or abolished by the government and the people it serves. 

[Dolomite_supafly]

So if a Constitutional Convention was held and the 2nd Ammendment, or any ammendment for that matter, was removed from the Bill of Rights what would you "fighters" do?

[Guest Keal G Seo]

Yeah, just because one doesn't believe in said God doesn't mean that that God didn't give them the right as well. Remember Christians, God loves us all equally...atheist, anti-theists and devil worshipers as well.

[jacob]

So if a Constitutional Convention was held and the 2nd Ammendment, or any ammendment for that matter, was removed from the Bill of Rights what would you "fighters" do?

What would you do? Be first in line at the melt down?? I am by no means trying to pretend like I am some bad ass, so you dont have to punctuate any of your words for effect. I am just simply stating what was intended when this country was founded...

[Guest 6.8 AR]

There are some interesting discussions in the world of U.S. history about this exact thing.  Several of the framers of the constitution did not want a bill of rights for a different reasons.  One of the more interesting reason is that some of our founders felt anything put into the bill of rights is now granted by the government and therefore could be taken away by the same government. 

 

From a legal standpoint dolomite's argument rings true, by passing the amendments they became codified as US law and laws can be rewritten or abolished by the government and the people it serves. 

They aren't supposed to be able to be taken away by the stroke of a pen on law. By passing the Bill of Rights, it was done to

give incentive to get the rest of the colonies to join the union. An amendment can't just fall off by passing a law. Laws and

amendments to the Constitution are separate and are treated differently. The 2nd was put in to protect the citizenry from

tyranny and to limit the federal government's ability to pass laws that may abridge it.

 

Discussions are just discussions, just like this one. You can agree with them or not.

 

That bold statement is just not true, except that of opinions of particular founders, but they still signed and passed the document in the end. . The government did not grant anything. The government is limited by the document, not given

powers. The government can't take something they don't have the power to. In the cases where they have succeeded

to do that, they have nibbled at the edges of those amendments by using clauses of the Constitution improperly

and illegally. The Constitution was intended, all along, to restrict the powers of government, not embolden it.

Edited November 7, 2013 by 6.8 AR

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Yeah, just because one doesn't believe in said God doesn't mean that that God didn't give them the right as well. Remember Christians, God loves us all equally...atheist, anti-theists and devil worshipers as well.

Who said otherwise?