DHS raiding store for counterfeit Coach bags? DHS? Really?

[TMF]

As with anything that exists, scope creep happens and that's why dhs is involved.

No, the Feds were involved in this before DHS was a twinkle in GW's eye. DHS incorporates the organizations that have traditionally enforced these laws. Edited November 10, 2013 by TMF

[TMF]

It is not literally stealing, It is not even the same as stealing. It is a different crime with its own laws and punishments.
 
If anything, it is more akin to fraud.
 
Intellectual property is a lie invented by the corporate owners of patents, copyrights and trademarks.

You could not be more wrong.

[Garufa]

It is not literally stealing, It is not even the same as stealing. It is a different crime with its own laws and punishments.

 

If anything, it is more akin to fraud.

 

Intellectual property is a lie invented by the corporate owners of patents, copyrights and trademarks.

 

Please, tell us more.  I'd especially like to hear more about your intellectual property theories.

[Sam1]

:popcorn:

[deerslayer]

What ever happened to regular every day police in your local area doing their job? It really seems that the feds are

starting to catch hold on all types of crime, and getting the toys to play with on a much larger scale.

 

Klatu Veranda Nicto.

 

Hmmm, sweatshop in China ships fake Coach purses to NY, which are then distributed all over the US to be sold at ghetto flea markets run by illegal aliens.  Some of the proceeds end up getting laundered in West Africa (credit card fraud Mecca, BTW) after some of the money ends up back in NY.  How do the local cops chase this? 

 

Seriously, the tinfoil factor on this site seems to get higher every day. 

Edited November 10, 2013 by deerslayer

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Hmmm, sweatshop in China ships fake Coach purses to NY, which are then distributed all over the US to be sold at ghetto flea markets run by illegal aliens.  Some of the proceeds end up getting laundered in West Africa (credit card fraud Mecca, BTW) after some of the money ends up back in NY.  How do the local cops chase this? 

 

Seriously, the tinfoil factor on this site seems to get higher every day. 

I didn't know asking a simple question about local cops doing their job was tinfoil. But, okay!

 

I didn't ask about local cops going all around the world chasing like a Hollywood movie scene. It did used to be the local cops,

in their jurisdiction, did their jobs when called on. Not that I really care about all this, but I did think this was an issue settled in

the civil court system. I'm just too tinfoiled.

 

Hell, in your scenario, get rid of the illegal aliens with ICE and we wouldn't have the distribution network, and nothing to worry

about, after that. Besides, the feds don't have much of anything to do with credit card fraud. You and I pay for that any time

we pay interest on a monthly statement for that credit card.

 

Damn, boy! Lighten up! Hmmmm :D

[tnguy]

How would you feel if

 

- your Lipitor turned out to be sugar pills, or your Novolin only saline solution?

- your Ruger and Smith and Wesson branded knock-off firearms blow your fingers off on the third round

- your big screen fake Panasonic works for 5 minutes, just long enough to start a fire

- your baby's Enfamil is actually E. coli laden goat milk from Tierra Del Fuego.

- your TGO logo gets used to endorse anti-gun legislation. ;)

 

etc.

 

It ain't all about harmless fashion items, ya know. Think it through.

 

- OS

 

 

None of what you wrote contradicts what I wrote.

[tnguy]

You could not be more wrong.

 

Fantastic rebuttal.

 

What are these counterfeiters being charged with?

 

Words, they mean things.

[Oh Shoot]

None of what you wrote contradicts what I wrote.

 

It absolutely does.  "Patents or copyrights and/or especially trademarks" are exactly what claims that your Ruger is a Ruger and your Enfamil is Enfamil. When those laws are broken, you can get pot metal guns and poison baby formula (you might anyway, but the odds are infinitely more in your favor, plus there's a real entity to sue at worst).

 

While a fake Coach purse may not be life threatening, it is protected under the same laws. And should be, as a brand name is a reputation, and if a good one, a valuable selling point.

 

Making a look alike or generic product is one thing, but counterfeiting is quite another.

 

- OS

Edited November 10, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[tnguy]

Please, tell us more.  I'd especially like to hear more about your intellectual property theories.

 

Sure. Copyrights and patents are a (supposedly) a limited monopoly granted, according to the wording of the constitution, "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts". Trademarks are a little different but their protection was largely calculated, as "Oh Shoot" suggests to protect the purchaser rather than the seller (though the seller obviously benefits). Note that the default situation would be that one could copy with impunity (such as when ug saw og tie a flint to a stick and throw it at a goat) but the government takes a positive action to enforce these protections. It is possible to make a case as to what level of protection should be afforded the creator, what level the purchaser, to what degree the government should be involved and what form the laws should take. All this is open to reasonable debate. What is not, however, is that contravening these rules or laws is stealing. That is removing the property of another, depriving them of the use of that property. It is a different act with different laws and penalties. These counterfeiters will not be charged with stealing because, quite literally (in the true meaning of the word "literally") they are not stealing. (Though in this case, the counterfeiters will likely not be brought to justice and the people selling these items will be charged with something completely different but I hope my point is seen). 

 

So let us take as given, for a second, that all laws about copyright, patents and trademarks are "perfect" as is. The "content" producers are not happy with what they are able to extract from this. Copyrights expire (though the length keeps getting extended), you made that mix-tape for your honey and the RIAA didn't see a cent. You went to your buddy's and you watched "Stripes" and they made exactly as much as if he'd been sitting on his lonesome. How do they remedy this situation? People just don't really take copyrights, patents and trademarks all that seriously (yeah, you who painted a Mickey mouse in your daughter's nursery, they're on to you). What's to be done? Well, how about instead of the copyrights, patents and trademarks that most people only have passing respect for, we indulge in word games and start pushing a different view on things. Let's call it "intellectual property" instead because then it's like real property and everyone knows that stealing is wrong. Yes, you're no longer recording a show to watch for later, you're snatching the food from a starving artist's mouth. You evil scum you. Why, you're no better than a pirate (people who originally [and still do] steal, murder and rape on the high seas but now, apparently, own two video recorders).

 

[tnguy]

It absolutely does.  "Patents or copyrights and/or especially trademarks" are exactly what claims that your Ruger is a Ruger and your Enfamil is Enfamil. When those laws are broken, you can get pot metal guns and poison baby formula (you might anyway, but the odds are infinitely more in your favor, plus there's a real entity to sue at worst).

 

While a fake Coach purse may not be life threatening, it is protected under the same laws. And should be, as a brand name is a reputation, and if a good one, a valuable selling point.

 

Making a look alike or generic product is one thing, but counterfeiting is quite another.

 

- OS

 

OK. So let's try another tack. Point out which parts of what I wrote are contradicted by that? I think you missed my point.

[Oh Shoot]

OK. So let's try another tack. Point out which parts of what I wrote are contradicted by that? I think you missed my point.

 

No desire here to debate the finer points of the word "theft" as relates to "intellectual property, patents, copyright, and trademarks".

 

It is however, a "crime" to counterfeit a brand name, which is the actual fact that prompted this thread, and it's a crime for good practical reasons which I have listed.

 

Your statements seem to indicate a contrary view to that -- if not, mea culpa all over the place; if so, by all means continue whatever nuanced take you have on it.

 

- OS

[tnguy]

No desire here to debate the finer points of the word "theft" as relates to "intellectual property, patents, copyright, and trademarks".

 

It is however, a "crime" to counterfeit a brand name, which is the actual fact that prompted this thread, and it's a crime for good practical reasons which I have listed.

 

Your statements seem to indicate a contrary view to that -- if not, mea culpa all over the place; if so, by all means continue whatever nuanced take you have on it.

 

- OS

 

Yeah, that's fair. It is a nuanced view but also based in actual law. All I really took exception to was the claim that it was stealing (in fact, that it was literally stealing). Though I do also feel that it shouldn't fall under the auspices of the DHS since I don't think anyone will be flying a fake Coco Chanel handbag into the side of any tall buildings.

 

From a brief perusal, it seems to me that this would more correctly fall within the jurisdiction of the "Department of Justice"

 

Here's a good read:

 

http://www.dhs.gov/mission

 

 

 

The Core Missions

There are five homeland security missions:

1. Prevent terrorism and enhancing security;
2. Secure and manage our borders;
3. Enforce and administer our immigration laws;
4. Safeguard and secure cyberspace;
5. Ensure resilience to disasters;

Edited November 10, 2013 by tnguy

[DaveTN]

It is not literally stealing, It is not even the same as stealing. It is a different crime with its own laws and punishments.
 
If anything, it is more akin to fraud.

 
 

All I really took exception to was the claim that it was stealing (in fact, that it was literally stealing).

It is literally stealing; it is theft. Fraud, embezzlement, robbery, and bad checks are descriptions of how a theft occurred; they are all still theft.

Civil court is where you make an example out of someone that thinks it okay or where you recover the money they stole from you. Criminal court is where the government puts them in jail for their actions. Civil court is pretty easy; criminal court in these cases is usually hampered by jurisdictional issues.

[TMF]

Fantastic rebuttal.
 
What are these counterfeiters being charged with?
 
Words, they mean things.

I'm glad you liked it. I don't recall from the article and the OP didn't include it.

Also, you seem to have a misunderstanding as to what agencies fall under the DHS. Those organizations have missions that don't involve terrorists flying plans into buildings. They have been enforcing these laws in the same capacity long before DHS was even a thought. I've written that several times in here and you've chosen to ignore that. Go to the DHS wiki page and educate yourself if you want to understand reality versus your incorrect assumption of what the sub-agencies of the DHS do.

Also, there is no way to debate with you why stealing a trademark is theft. You don't get it. I think that has to do with some kind of resentful attitude towards successful businesses based on your previous posts. I'm betting, however, if you worked hard to create something only to have it stolen by counterfeiters or if you purchased a $500 item only to find out it is worthless junk, you would have a different opinion.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I posted on here, some time back, about a bid I placed on Ebay for a laptop. Now this wasn't counterfeiting, but it was fraud,

or something. I contacted the FBI's internet crime fraud division(?) and they referred the incident to Sterling Heights, MI

police dept. We talked and I told them about the amount, type of product and waited about a year. Finally got my money

back in installments. That was the extent of my understanding how the federal government got involved in these kinds of crimes.

 

I guess with Homeland Security the ball court has been expanded for more players. Mine was theft, but I was under the impression

that in the case of counterfeiting, that was about money for the Secret Service, and that the individual companies who had patents

and copyrights were subject to the civil courts first. This was before the DMCA. I don't know how that changed things. Guess

that made everything a federal crime.

 

I couldn't tell the difference between a Coach purse, bag, whatever it is, and I usually don't buy from street vendors, so I guess

I'm not as street wise as you guys. I did buy a Vortex rifle scope for 99 bucks once that had "made in China" on it. I guess it could

be fake, eh?

 

You can make your arguments for or against DHS. I, personally don't see much use in the federalization of police authorities under

the umbrella of Homeland Security and I sure don't care at all for the Patriot Act. That is all the of the extent of my concerns. As

far as counterfeiting goes, it has always been against the law to infringe on copyrights and patents, but I considered money to

be what the Secret Service checked out for. Didn't know about the rest.

 

I'm more concerned about the people who write and make these laws, and how they came about, the political angle, that is. I think

Leroy mentioned something about the shortcomings of the DMCA or something like it. And it is interesting how the kings of the

music industry, Sony, Panasonic, Mitsubishi, etc, lobbied hard for the DMCA when they are the ones who made all the toys that

did the copying. I guess making money one place wasn't good enough after they created a pathway to undermine their own profit.

The DMCA was a gift to them for their high priced ignorance. Open Pandora's box.

 

After a point in time, the consumer will find use of shortcuts the same way those companies do. Again, I am not criticizing, just making

an observation.

 

I also remember when Linux came about and Microsoft cried, bitched and moaned. Linux is a very close cousin of Unix, which came

from Bell Labs, I think. I don't remember how that was resolved, but Linux is what's called open source and is still around. Did it get

copied? Or was it a creation? Hell, one story about Microsoft, which I don't know to be true, was that Gates bought the software, then

marketed it as his own. That's not theft, but he didn't create anything until later. He wasn't happy at all about Linux and tried to stop

it in its tracks.

 

There is a lot of blurring in what is theft and what is creation, and I sometimes wonder what the next real crime is going to be, and who

will make who the criminal for what amount?

[tnguy]

Go to the DHS wiki page and educate yourself if you want to understand reality versus your incorrect assumption of what the sub-agencies of the DHS do.

 

The Core Missions
There are five homeland security missions:

• Prevent terrorism and enhancing security;
• Secure and manage our borders;
• Enforce and administer our immigration laws;
• Safeguard and secure cyberspace;
• Ensure resilience to disasters;

Also, there is no way to debate with you why stealing a trademark is theft. You don't get it. I think that has to do with some kind of resentful attitude towards successful businesses based on your previous posts. I'm betting, however, if you worked hard to create something only to have it stolen by counterfeiters or if you purchased a $500 item only to find out it is worthless junk, you would have a different opinion.

I might want those transgressors to be prosecuted to the full extent of the applicable laws. I might even have the private opinion that they should be taken out back and shot. But my opinion would still be that it is not theft or stealing. Because I know what those words mean (I know what the word "literally" means, also). Edited November 10, 2013 by tnguy

[tnguy]

 It is literally stealing; it is theft. Fraud, embezzlement, robbery, and bad checks are descriptions of how a theft occurred; they are all still theft.

 

Embezzlement, probably. Robbery for sure. Fraud and bad checks are covered by different statutes.

 

I am not going to argue circles over this. I have stated things as I see them and if I can't convince with what I have said already, I hope a light goes on somewhere down the line. These are issues I have been paying attention to for a long time.

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theft

 

Q: If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have? A: Four, because calling a tail a leg doesn't mean it is one.

Edited November 10, 2013 by tnguy

[tnguy]

 I think that has to do with some kind of resentful attitude towards successful businesses based on your previous posts.

 

You clearly have little understanding of me. I suggest you stick to addressing what I write directly.

[Clod Stomper]

I have one of those fakes on the way.  Got it on Ebay and when the shipping notification stated China Post, I knew I had bought a fake.

Now to see how bad it is when it arrives.

 

I recently ordered a replacement coil from Amazon for my Stihl chainsaw.  LIke you, I was dismayed to see that it was being shipped from "China Post".  But it was significantly cheaper than OEM.  

 

I got it a couple days ago and installed it.  Saw works like it's supposed to now.  Hope it lasts.