DHS raiding store for counterfeit Coach bags? DHS? Really?

[scoutfsu]

Terry,

 

I don't even know what a flame baiter is....but I do recognize troll threads when I see them.  Next time, if you're going to cry and moan against the DHS-devil, try to have some sort of verifiable facts.  Ridiculous conjecture only makes you less credible and a source of sad amusement.

 

You have yourself a good one.

[TerryW]

How long have you worked for DHS?

[Westwindmike]

Fake pocketbooks should be a civil matter. Let Coach sue when they find them. This should not be a criminal act.

[Spiffy]

I have one of those fakes on the way.  Got it on Ebay and when the shipping notification stated China Post, I knew I had bought a fake.

Now to see how bad it is when it arrives.

 

Kinda like the LED drop ins I just ordered off Amazon. Said MADE IN AMERICA like 10 times.......then tracking says Dec 12 arrival date...... 

[deerslayer]

DHS raided some foreign types here last year.  They were involved in counterfeit merchandise and various fraud-related activities.  A couple local companies lost lots of money as a result.  DHS did a service to the community that the courts never would have been able to achieve.  How does a company sue China?

Edited November 8, 2013 by deerslayer

[Guest nra37922]

DHS should find something worthwhile to do like maybe go after the Crips, Bloods, Vice Lords and other criminal gangs.

[Guest TankerHC]

We already are seeing it.  Where I grew up the Border Patrol controls a stretch of highway that stops every single car, truck or motorcycle for the purposes of finding out who is a us citizen.  It's 100 miles from the Mexico border.

 

https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Unknown+road&daddr=El+Paso,+TX&hl=en&sll=32.526788,-106.025512&sspn=0.014492,0.033023&geocode=FfVX8AEdKCOu-Q%3BFYCZ5AEdbSOn-SlpO_7Fiz_nhjEiAp2r44SR4w&oq=el+&t=h&mra=ls&z=9

 

Think ive been through several of those. In New Mexico, Arizona and California. Isnt that where they check also for fruit, vegetables and livestock being brought in illegally? WHich is legit since a foreign invader bug can wipe out our farmers crops.

[TMF]

DHS should find something worthwhile to do like maybe go after the Crips, Bloods, Vice Lords and other criminal gangs.

So no one should be enforcing copyright infringements and counterfeiting laws?

[leroy]

I would say to all of those who think the DHS raid on counterfeit stuff is ok in the kindest possible way; just think about this a bit....   

 

Number one; "... where is the "probable cause" and the warrant for this search?.... .  Number two;.... just why does DHS have jurisdiction in this particular case?...  Number three;... Just what is the justification for a full armed "commando assault" (...if it, indeed, was an armed assault...) on this business?... Number 4; suppose for a minute or two that you are a law abiding business man that has through no fault of your own, unknowingly bought some contraband or counterfeit merchandise.... What about your door; does it need kickin down too?...

 

Folks, this stuff aint ok; and no amount of lipstick smeared on this pig by the appologizers for government and those citizens who dont like counterfeit gucci bags will make it ok... Folks need to see to it that this stuff is handled thru the courts and not thru the antics of the apparatchiks of the "ABC" bureaus of government... If these guys can kick the "might-be counterfeiter's" doors in; they can kick yours in too...

 

West Wind Mike is exactly right about this... It's a civil issue and should be handled in the civil courts... Sadly, that wont be decided until some "fortunate son" is wronged and this sort of thing goes to the federal courts....This is more government "ABC" bureaucracy abuse, pure and simple... Be careful what you choose to condone... You could be on the wrong end of it someday...

 

leroy

Edited November 8, 2013 by leroy

[Guest 6.8 AR]

So no one should be enforcing copyright infringements and counterfeiting laws?

Yes, but not them. This is a civil matter. Not much different from using the CIA for issuing speeding tickets. It isn't their job.

[tnguy]

Think ive been through several of those. In New Mexico, Arizona and California. Isnt that where they check also for fruit, vegetables and livestock being brought in illegally? WHich is legit since a foreign invader bug can wipe out our farmers crops.

 

No. They're not even really checking for illegals. When they asked me if I was a US citizen, I'm sure I could have just added a bit of a drawl, said "yup" and been on my way.

 

They might have been checking the bigger vehicles a bit closer but I'm sure I could have had four illegals in the trunk, one under the dash and a small one in the ashtray.

 

Edited November 9, 2013 by tnguy

[TMF]

Yes, but not them. This is a civil matter. Not much different from using the CIA for issuing speeding tickets. It isn't their job.

Not at all. Counterfeiting products is a criminal matter and the Secret Service has been enforcing it for s long time. The only difference is now DHS exists and the SS falls under DHS. Then, when you start a thread invoking the name of DHS it makes it sound all sinister and Gestapo-ish, as if this is a new thing that the DHS is getting their claws into when that is not the case at all.

I'll add to that, from what I remember about the story, Coach sent their own private investigator who collected all the evidence for these people selling counterfeit. It appears all they did was contact the SS who then made the arrest after doing their own sting. Not a lot of work on their end other than booking these people.

[leroy]

Check this out: http://www.dhs.gov/news/2012/05/17/written-testimony-us-immigration-and-customs-enforcement-house-ways-and-means

 

Look at the fourth paragraph... It appears that the Immigration and Customs Service do the investigating; and the Immigration and Customs Service is a part of DHS.... I'll grant that making counterfeit stuff is a criminal offense... I aint so sure about simply selling it... The "door kickin" commentary still doesnt change... These "ABC" gubmt bureaus are a menace to this country....

 

leroy

[TMF]

Check this out: http://www.dhs.gov/news/2012/05/17/written-testimony-us-immigration-and-customs-enforcement-house-ways-and-means
 
Look at the fourth paragraph... It appears that the Immigration and Customs Service do the investigating; and the Immigration and Customs Service is a part of DHS.... I'll grant that making counterfeit stuff is a criminal offense... I aint so sure about simply selling it... The "door kickin" commentary still doesnt change... These "ABC" gubmt bureaus are a menace to this country....
 
leroy

Yeah, they've long been going after counterfeited products from China as it enters our ports. This case was handed by the secret service if I remember correctly. I'm assuming because it's on the shelves rather than our shores. You may think they are nothing more than a menace, but these laws exist for a reason and need to be enforced for a reason. Unbridled thieving of intellectual property is bad for capitalism.

[leroy]

TMF:  I agree that "...thieving of intellectual property is bad for capitalism..."; and is also bad for those tryin to make an honest living...

 

My problem is that it appears to be a selective priority with the gubmt that feeds the "ABC kick in the door" segment of the bureaucracy...  I'll grant that this is a "dammed if ya do and dammed if ya dont" thing for the enforcers; but it looks ta me like this thing is, at best, a mis-prioritization and frivolous use of gubmt dollars; and, at worst, a bone thrown to the "fortunate sons" among us....

 

My vote if for the latter... Hollywood and the artists organizations lobbied hard for and got this stuff; along with the military-industrial segment... At the end of the day, this aint about protectin mom and pop operations; nor individual entrepreneurs; its about protectin the "fortunate sons" in ways that real citizens can never hope to enjoy....

 

On a personal basis, i think that the "door kickin" branch of gubmt ought to be reigned in and that the documents that authorize the "door kickin" ought to be public; and maybe they are... My point is that the citizenry and the legislative branch ought to be watchin them closely... This one looks a bit frivolous to me...

 

While im on this soapbox; we've basically got open borders in this country due do to the bridling of the Border Patrol and ICE for political purposes and selective law enforcement... My priorities may be all wrong; but it looks to me like these resources that we're havin to borrow money to pay for would be put to much better use watchin the border and the container ship ports of entry for suitcase nukes and dirty bombs than huntin fake guccis...  There is a very low likelihood of the counterfeit gucci's doin any real damage to anyone other than the buyer's pocketbook and the bottom line of those with enough money and influence to lobby for these sorts of laws and their prioritization of enforcement efforts...

 

More than that, we aint gonna do anything meaningful to the Red Chinese (...if they are the culprits in this case...)... They are our biggest trading partner... At the end of the day, this is most likely about protectin the "fortunate sons" among us and slappin the business men that may or may not know they are peddlin bogus merchandise for the red chinese....

 

I aint pickin on you or anyone else about this... I'm simply askin folks that may be inclined to think this is a good thing to think thru it a bit...

 

leroy

[TMF]

These folks selling counterfeit no darn well what they're selling. The folks that got busted were Chinese, so I'll assume their merchandise was being shipped directly from a contact in China. I don't think this was a "door kicking" operation. Coach had their own private investigator do the leg work, then turned over their evidence to the authorities. They verified the evidence and made an arrest. That sounds like the way it should work. I'm sure if mom and pop stores were cranking out trademarked items that other people were copying they'd be doing the same thing. There are a lot of smaller scale operations having this problem in nearly every industry. Take a look at counterfeit EOtechs coming from China. It's a problem. As a taxpayer, I expect law enforcement to enforce the law. If no me enforced the law then everyone would be cranking out counterfeit items in their basement without fear of the law, which would I turn undermine the industry they're counterfeiting in, and lower sales for fear of being duped.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Not at all. Counterfeiting products is a criminal matter and the Secret Service has been enforcing it for s long time. The only difference is now DHS exists and the SS falls under DHS. Then, when you start a thread invoking the name of DHS it makes it sound all sinister and Gestapo-ish, as if this is a new thing that the DHS is getting their claws into when that is not the case at all.

I'll add to that, from what I remember about the story, Coach sent their own private investigator who collected all the evidence for these people selling counterfeit. It appears all they did was contact the SS who then made the arrest after doing their own sting. Not a lot of work on their end other than booking these people.

Counterfeiting anything? I thought the SS dealt with counterfeiting money and protecting the public officials they are charged with.

That's the extent of my knowledge. I also didn't start this thread, so I don't want to get into what the OP was up to because I don't

know much more than you about that.

 

Like Leroy said, if it is the charge of the "agency" to go after counterfeit whatever, it appears to be a selective thing. The civil

courts have been the mechanism for companies to get redress for things like this forever. You mean if I go out and patent a

widget and someone breaks my patent and copies it, I can call the SS? Didn't know that much extent and latitude was there for the

government to investigate. Doesn't sound right to me.

[leroy]

Ill buy this on a general basis:

 

....I don't think this was a "door kicking" operation. Coach had their own private investigator do the leg work, then turned over their evidence to the authorities. They verified the evidence and made an arrest. That sounds like the way it should work. ...

....TMF partial quote -- post #41...

 

My observation and disgust with this little snippit is in at least two directions... I'm kinda like 6.8 and Mike; state-sponsored counterfeiting of bogus goods (...if it can, indeed, be proven....) seems to be a federal criminal espionage related genuine crime.... I find that curious that this has evidently moved from bein a civil issue to a federal criminal issue...

 

I can buy the argument that counterfeiting currency, bonds, financial instruments, wire-fraud, bogus cash transfers, money-laundering is a bad, potentially disastrous act; especially when it is state sponsored... I'll also buy the idea that lack of adequate enforcement of bans on "intellectual property" and "trademarked" goods" can, in fact, hurt genuine small operators and entrapeneurs from a financial and "intellectual property" perspective...

 

I simply dont buy the idea that this should somehow be high on the list of enforcement tasks for the federal gubmt and that the penalties should be as severe as we've evidently legislated them to be...  Given the facts in this particular case; evidently it is not the case; because the company guys did all the leg work... 

 

Havin said all that, take the time to do a google search of "raids on counterfeit items" and take a look at the amount of stories that are listed... There appears to be lots of federal investigation of this stuff goin on...

 

Bein the unkind, suspicious sort that i tend to be; i could easily allow my feeble mind to wander and i could begin to start thinkin that it is both a lot easier and a lot safer to hunt down and prosecute vendors and flea market sellers than it is to go out and round up hardened killers...

 

In my mind, at least, the real problem is that things have gotten so bad that a geezer like me and lots of other otherwise sensible folks tend to think the worst about the motives of gubmt, even when it may be doin the right things for the right reasons...  I think that is the biggest problem that we are facin in this country in the citizenry vs gubmt arena, and its a shame...

 

The second issue is that you can rest assured that the criminalization and upping the penalties for this "intellectual property" and "trademark" thing wasn't emplaced to help the individual inventor, artist, or entrepreneur... It wuz emplaced as a bone thrown to the military-industrial sector and the hollywood artist and entertainment sector... It had nothin to do with protecting inventors and individual artist... It had everything to do with currying the favor of big political donors... I simply dont like that one on general principle... The way i see things is that, sadly, everything is for sale... Could it be that gubmt muscle is for sale here?.... Its both a terrible and interestin thing to think about...

 

When everything is for sale, it's generally a short step to the next sale; and it could well affect you adversely... The sad fact is that we have moved far afield from the original intent of all these laws and have tailored them to help the "favorite sons" at a pretty good cost to the general citizenry...

 

 

leroy

[tnguy]

Should selling counterfeit goods be a criminal offense? Arguably (no).

 

Should there be a "Department of Homeland Security"? Arguably (probably not).

 

Should a "Department of Homeland Security" be kicking down doors to arrest sellers of counterfeit goods? Hell no!

 

Such a department is going to be given powers and latitudes that should not be available to regular enforcement, therefore they should not be engaged in regular law-enforcement activities. This should have been a task for a couple of regular cops in shirt-sleeves.

 

"Sir, you have a tail-light out"

Edited November 9, 2013 by tnguy

[TMF]

Should selling counterfeit goods be a criminal offense? Arguably (no).
 
Should there be a "Department of Homeland Security"? Arguably (probably not).
 
Should a "Department of Homeland Security" be kicking down doors to arrest sellers of counterfeit goods? Hell no!
 
Such a department is going to be given powers and latitudes that should not be available to regular enforcement, therefore they should not be engaged in regular law-enforcement activities. This should have been a task for a couple of regular cops in shirt-sleeves.
 
"Sir, you have a tail-light out"

Should selling counterfeit goods be a criminal offense? Arguably (no).
 
Should there be a "Department of Homeland Security"? Arguably (probably not).
 
Should a "Department of Homeland Security" be kicking down doors to arrest sellers of counterfeit goods? Hell no!
 
Such a department is going to be given powers and latitudes that should not be available to regular enforcement, therefore they should not be engaged in regular law-enforcement activities. This should have been a task for a couple of regular cops in shirt-sleeves.
 
"Sir, you have a tail-light out"

These laws were being enforced before there was a DHS. I'm not sure how that has anything to do with this. They weren't kicking down any doors either. They sent an undercover in, bought a counterfeit purse and then arrested them.

I can't believe that any rational person would consider counterfeit items as legal. It is stealing property. It may not be physical property, but it is intellectual property. Let us say that you decide to start making quality holsters in your garage one day, then over time your brand is established and trusted. Then someone comes along and decides to do the same thing and puts your stamp on his holsters in order to leech off your hard work. That is stealing. Quite literally it is stealing. No different than someone stealing your car or money. It is a crime, should be a crime and should be enforced by an agency which has jurisdiction in all states. It is not logical to say this is the responsibility of individuals to deal with theft of intellectual property and enforce the law themselves.

[Sam1]

As with anything that exists, scope creep happens and that's why dhs is involved.

[tnguy]

It is not literally stealing, It is not even the same as stealing. It is a different crime with its own laws and punishments.

 

If anything, it is more akin to fraud.

 

Intellectual property is a lie invented by the corporate owners of patents, copyrights and trademarks.

Edited November 9, 2013 by tnguy

[Guest 6.8 AR]

What ever happened to regular every day police in your local area doing their job? It really seems that the feds are

starting to catch hold on all types of crime, and getting the toys to play with on a much larger scale.

 

Klatu Veranda Nicto.

[Oh Shoot]

It is not literally stealing, It is not even the same as stealing. It is a different crime with its own laws and punishments.

 

If anything, it is more akin to fraud.

 

Intellectual property is a lie invented by the corporate owners of patents, copyrights and trademarks.

 

How would you feel if

 

- your Lipitor turned out to be sugar pills, or your Novolin only saline solution?

- your Ruger and Smith and Wesson branded knock-off firearms blow your fingers off on the third round

- your big screen fake Panasonic works for 5 minutes, just long enough to start a fire

- your baby's Enfamil is actually E. coli laden goat milk from Tierra Del Fuego.

- your TGO logo gets used to endorse anti-gun legislation. ;)

 

etc.

 

It ain't all about harmless fashion items, ya know. Think it through.

 

- OS

Edited November 10, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[DaveTN]

It is not literally stealing, It is not even the same as stealing. It is a different crime with its own laws and punishments.
 
If anything, it is more akin to fraud.
 
Intellectual property is a lie invented by the corporate owners of patents, copyrights and trademarks.

Certainly its theft; its theft by deception. Eotech and Leupold optics are victims and so are the people that buy these optics thinking they are the real thing. (Among many other things)
 
 

What ever happened to regular every day police in your local area doing their job? It really seems that the feds are
starting to catch hold on all types of crime, and getting the toys to play with on a much larger scale.
 
Klatu Veranda Nicto.

The Feds might be involved because of jurisdictional issues. That’s why computer theft/fraud is rampant; many times the locals don’t have jurisdiction.