unreasonable or warranted search

[Guest RebelCowboySnB]

I know, right?

It's almost as though they heard about something being reported incorrectly and thought it important enough to give the true facts.

 

I bet they've taken over the other sub-forums, too, dang rebel scum.

 

 

Hey, I have been here for weeks.

[Joe357]

TGO?

[Oh Shoot]

Darn Bulldog fans are reproducing like rabbitts.

 

Hey now, Adam5 sports a Voles avatar:

 

 

- OS

[Guest RebelCowboySnB]

This is interesting, IMO. At first it sounded like the run-of-the-mill hot shot OC'ing to cause trouble and create a lawsuit. Then more facts made is sound like a completely innocent guy getting harassed by bad cops. Now, the idea of surreptitiously bringing a recorder with you on a routine walk sound like it's back in the former camp again. I'm interested to hear more about why anyone would think they may need to record a conversation while exercising in the park.

Well Imy self got my dash cam an audio recorder after I was in a crash in Sweetwater Tn. Turning left in to a fleamarket some T-bonesd my truck from behind. They talked about the crash till the THP showed up then they acused me of not using a blinker an sued me. $$$$ later an it hit me that a dash cam an a audio recorder is cheep insurance compared to a his word V/S mine court case.

[Guest Siege]

Does GA law require a picture id to be carried and presented along with their hcp? 

 

No. While you must honestly and truthfully identify yourself if a police officer so demands it, there is no requirement in the state of Georgia for you to possess or show a drivers license or other form of picture ID, nor is there a requirement for you to present any such ID UNLESS you are the driver of a vehicle, and a police officer still may not pull you over and demand to see your driver's license "just because you might be driving without one". They MUST have PC or RAS to believe you were, are, or are about to be involved in a crime that amounts to more than an unsubstantiated "hunch".

[Oh Shoot]

Hey, I have been here for weeks.

 

TGO?

 

??  "Member Since 11-October 13"

[Guest Siege]

Darn Bulldog fans are reproducing like rabbitts.

 Come on, don't lump the whole state together like that.

Some of us actually have some class and are Yellow Jackets fans (when we bother to give :2cents: )  :jester:

 

  :hiding:

[Guest Siege]

I know, right?

It's almost as though they heard about something being reported incorrectly and thought it important enough to give the true facts.

 

I bet they've taken over the other sub-forums, too, dang rebel scum.

 

Mmmmmmmyep. Heard our guy was being run through the ringer as a result of slanderous misinformation on neighboring forums, and felt it behooved us to clear the air and provide the actual facts instead of hearsay.

[c.a.willard]

Sudden influx of Georgian folks becoming new members in the past 48 hrs.

As long as there here we might as well argue about water rights instead.  Might be more productive.

:stir:

 

In all seriousness though, it sounds like fallschirmjager got screwed over by an out of control security idiot and potentially a couple of cops that should have known better.  End result could have been a lot worse, glad it worked out ok for him in the end.  I will say this though, i know a lot of cops and none of them are out to screw with the decent folk, some end up doing it due to a lack of proper training and guidance.  It doesn't make it right, but it doesn't mean they should necessarily loose their shirts over it either.  Sometimes all that is needed is a little bit of education, which it appears the city took more serious after this incident.  It's still a win overall for the people who live there.

 

[jacob]

As long as there here we might as well argue about water rights instead.

Rather wouldnt...we are already ready to draw blood with MS over the aquifers on this end of the state...

[Guest RebelCowboySnB]

 

As long as there here we might as well argue about water rights instead.  Might be more productive.

:stir:

I am always up for that talk. I have even made a video on the subject..

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PLBQhUDXvM

[dawgdoc]

I must admit that I am the one who led to this influx of Georgians, but only because I saw a lot of wrong information and assumptions.  I wanted Falls to know so that he could clear things up, and obviously some of my colleagues followed the link to here.  They, like me, had been an audience to the whole incident since day 1, and felt a need to share their opinions also.  I wasn't trying to stir the pot; I was trying to clarify the situation.

 

I think the reason that we have such a strong opinion about Falls' situation is because it could have happened to anyone of us.  The fact that a man was arrested mainly due to the bleeting of a sheep is chilling.  Even those of us who mainly carry concealed could have an accidental exposure that could lead to the same situation.  And I suspect that we have all heard more than one story where a gun toter did cooperate and still got the ride.

[Guest Fallschirmjäger]

"... I know a lot of cops and none of them are out to screw with the decent folk, some end up doing it due to a lack of proper training and guidance.  It doesn't make it right, but it doesn't mean they should necessarily loose their shirts over it either.  Sometimes all that is needed is a little bit of education, which it appears the city took more serious after this incident.  It's still a win overall for the people who live there.."

 

I don't think Officer Adam Bell responded thinking, "Ohboy, I'm gonna hassle some sumbi**** today."

 

I think he got caught unawares by the simple question, "Am I being detained?" Although I am stymied how any officer in law enforcement today could NOT be aware of what that question means in light of the Supreme Court's Terry v Ohio decision.

I think he felt threatened when he was asked another simple question, "What crime do you suspect me of?" as he had nothing but an inchoate, unparticularized suspicion that something must be wrong, else he would not have been called to respond.  Of course, he was unaware that the call he responded to "Suspicious Person" was not the call that went in to GCPD, "Please send someone to answer the question of 'is this guy legal'?"

And I think he felt resentment that a 'potential criminal' wasn't cooperating with the obvious fishing expedition he was conducting to ad post hoc justify his detention of someone he could not possibly articulate a reasonable suspicion of illegality against; witness his constantly changing explanations for why he was investigating, none of which were criminal acts nor precursors to such acts."

 

I have had a few meetings with my local Sheriff's Deputies, all went well except for one that went south as soon as [url=http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/showthread.php?t=228071&highlight=deputy+captain+forsyth+freeman] Deputy K. See[/url] pulled into my driveway in response to my calling the deputies.  I went to his precinct the next working day and tried to meet with his immediate supervisor.  Instead, I was welcomed into the Precinct Captain's office and had about a two-hour conversation with the good Captain.  And even though I requested that the incident be handled on a personal, non-official level, he had no choice but to make it an official statement.  I have the greatest of respect for the police, but I also realize they are merely human and as such are capable of misusing the tools they have in inappropriate ways.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Fallschirmjäger

[TMF]

I must admit that I am the one who led to this influx of Georgians, but only because I saw a lot of wrong information and assumptions.  I wanted Falls to know so that he could clear things up, and obviously some of my colleagues followed the link to here.  They, like me, had been an audience to the whole incident since day 1, and felt a need to share their opinions also.  I wasn't trying to stir the pot; I was trying to clarify the situation.
 
I think the reason that we have such a strong opinion about Falls' situation is because it could have happened to anyone of us.  The fact that a man was arrested mainly due to the bleeting of a sheep is chilling.  Even those of us who mainly carry concealed could have an accidental exposure that could lead to the same situation.  And I suspect that we have all heard more than one story where a gun toter did cooperate and still got the ride.

Right on. You have to understand though, when reading a story like this it generally is a person who was out looking for trouble and found it. It seems nowadays everytime a person is "defending" their rights it is a person that went and did something they knew would elicit a response, then are indignant that they got the response they were looking for. We have a guy in the Nashville area that is famous for it. YouTube is full of these idiots. This particular story has many of the same elements. Perhaps this guy was really minding his own business and wasnt looking for trouble. I don't know. But there is a reason the immediate assumption was what it was. There are folks who OC everyday and never have a problem, yet once a person has a video camera or other recording device they just "happen" to get hassled by police. As it turns out it's always some activist who was looking to make the papers or a few hundred thousand hits for his YouTube channel and be the champion of the 2nd Amendment.

I'm glad he came here and gave his side of the story. It all still seems a little suspect to me. Sure, the police messed up and it seems they lied. Their actions are not excused. But the individual in question should know that OCing in certain areas is gonna scare the sheep. Yeah, we can debate that all day, but the fact is when some soccer mom is taking her toddler to the park she is going to be frightened by a person toting a gun. That's just the reality of it. It would save a lot of drama and show consideration to simply take a shirt and cover it up. When a person refuses to empathize with people who don't share their life experiences, like a young mother with a child on a playground, and instead justifies their actions with an argument about "rights" misses the whole point of consideration and lets me know exactly the type of person they are and what their intentions were.

[DaveTN]

I think the reason that we have such a strong opinion about Falls' situation is because it could have happened to anyone of us.

I disagree; I don’t think it could happen to me. Police respond to calls and they check people out… period; that’s what they do and it won’t change. I don’t open carry, but if I did and a cop stopped me I would show him my HCP and be on my way. That’s not a choice I have; it’s the law of this state.

However, even if I could I would never disrespect a Police Officer doing his job by refusing to answer his questions and show ID. I have responded to many citizens calls about suspicious people on everything from “They just don’t look like they belong around here” to “We have had a rash of burglaries in the area and I am concerned about this guy” to “The guy looks elderly and lost”. None of those things are against the law and any of them may cause you to be approached by the cops. Carrying a gun doesn’t get you immunity from being stopped if someone thinks you are suspicious and it never will.

But hey, he got an out of court settlement (I’m guessing with no acknowledgement of wrongdoing on anyone’s part) that allowed him to buy a new rifle; win for him.

[Guest Fallschirmjäger]

I disagree; I don’t think it could happen to me. Police respond to calls and they check people out… period; that’s what they do and it won’t change. I don’t open carry, but if I did and a cop stopped me I would show him my HCP and be on my way. That’s not a choice I have; it’s the law of this state.

Except,

I gave a full accounting of my actions ----- and wasn't sent on my way

I did identify myself, and I game my full date of birth ----- and wasn't sent on my way.

I did show my GWL (the Georgia equivalent of the Tenn. HCP.----- and wasn't sent on my way.

The officers admitted my actions had been legal ----- and I wasn't sent on my way

The officers could not articulate a single, solitary reasonable suspicion of any crime -----and I wasn't sent on my way

 

Refusing to answer Officer Friendly's questions isn't "disrespecting" him.  No more than pleading the 5th in court is "disrespecting" the court.

You have absolutely no obligation to answer the nice officer's questions that he's only asking so he can put you in jail.

Any lawyer worth his sheepskin will tell you, "[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc]Do NOT Talk to the Police[/url],"  it's good advice.

 

 

[edited to add]

Someone's probably wondering, "If the officers admitted his actions were legal, and had no RAS, then how'd that bozo wind up arrested, huh? huh?"

Here's how it's done....

Officers investigate an incident.  They find that the "suspects" conduct is legal and aboveboard.  They talk to the complainant and the complainant makes an accusation of some illegality.

The officers make an arrest based solely upon this accusation, with no independent investigation into the incident.  Essentially, "He said you did X, so you're under arrest.  Put your hands behind your back."

 

The officers knew the arrest was bogus.  They did it purely to "teach that bozo a lesson."  They had no worries about being sued for the arrest as they had a magistrate sign off on it; the magistrate is immune and the officers acting on the magistrate's orders have immunity as well.

 

Don't believe it happened that way?

[url]https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3DJ7h3BEPHcREt5OGQxbzhkWU0/edit?usp=sharing[/url]

read page 24 of the 26 pages in that document and tell me what investigation into the trespassing accusation they made.

 

My civil suit was for 'illegal detention' which was made as soon as Officer Bell arrived, Judge Duffy conveniently neglected to address that in his decision to protect the two officers.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Fallschirmjäger

[Chucktshoes]

I disagree; I don’t think it could happen to me. Police respond to calls and they check people out… period; that’s what they do and it won’t change. I don’t open carry, but if I did and a cop stopped me I would show him my HCP and be on my way. That’s not a choice I have; it’s the law of this state.

However, even if I could I would never disrespect a Police Officer doing his job by refusing to answer his questions and show ID. I have responded to many citizens calls about suspicious people on everything from “They just don’t look like they belong around here” to “We have had a rash of burglaries in the area and I am concerned about this guy” to “The guy looks elderly and lost”. None of those things are against the law and any of them may cause you to be approached by the cops. Carrying a gun doesn’t get you immunity from being stopped if someone thinks you are suspicious and it never will.

But hey, he got an out of court settlement (I’m guessing with no acknowledgement of wrongdoing on anyone’s part) that allowed him to buy a new rifle; win for him.

So under all circumstances we must respect the officer's authoritah, eh? 

[DaveTN]

Any lawyer worth his sheepskin will tell you, "Do NOT Talk to the Police"  it's good advice.

Nonsense, most good attorneys would tell you to cooperate and be on your way. “Good Attorneys” being those that advising you on how to handle the situation without going to court or being a test case. 
 

So under all circumstances we must respect the officer's authoritah, eh?

Nope, you are not required by law to respect anyone’s authority; it’s what I chose to do.

I recently was at a party where there were a bunch of Military Officers present. It’s been many years since I was in the military and I enjoyed talking to them. I addressed them by their rank or “Sir”. I was not required by law to show them respect, but in my eyes they had earned that. I treat Police Officers the same way. If they start questioning me I know what to say and what not to say so we can both go on our way. Of course as I said; that’s just me. I treat people I meet with respect no matter who they are unless I have a reason to treat them differently. Some people have problems with any type of authority and have respect for no one.

I just made an observation. I don’t fear going to jail if I open carried a gun; I just don’t see it happening.
Maybe it’s my people skills.

[Hershmeister]

While i personally avoid putting myself in situations which may lead to challenges with LE, i do beleive that these examples ARE like the lunch counter sit ins of the 1960's, or even Rosa Parks.

We are in a renaissance time for development of 2nd amendment rights - much like the 1950s-1970s saw public and legal action on 1st and 14th amendment issues.

My hat is off to anyone who manages to create a safe, respectful way of expanding the publics educations and understanding of the 2nd amendment.

Sometimes it will take uncomfortable moments to create this clarity, but it is essential to our liberty.

[Guest RebelCowboySnB]

Nonsense, most good attorneys would tell you to cooperate and be on your way. “Good Attorneys” being those that advising you on how to handle the situation without going to court or being a test case.

I dont know what kind of lawyers you are talking to but I have never known one that wanted anyone to cooperate. An actually the board that fall stays on an this story has been the center of for over a year is full of Ga lawyers an LEOs. Some I like others I dont but all good men that know the law. They are key to why Ga law has change so much for the better over the last few years. I dont remember seeing a one of them have a issue with how fall acted. Well maybe the thing about singing in thhe back of the cop car. But everything else everyone seems to think he did things right.

[BigK]

Part of me still says that carrying a recorder around everywhere I go is paranoid behavior at the least and surreptitious at the most. If one only carries a recorder when they OC, it still seems mostly surreptitious to me. I've never wanted/needed to OC bad enough to "risk" winding up in a situation like this. My personal choice is to carry concealed and avoid the hassle.

In all fairness, though, there are those that feel like carrying a gun at all "risks" winding up in a situation of some kind. Likewise, these types think carrying a gun for protection is paranoid too.

Either way, the attitude I choose to display to the officer seems to me like it's going to have the most effect on how the confrontation goes. Right or wrong being nice instead of insisting on being right is good karma and goes a long way. I'll choose not being a test case, not being hassled, and not making the news over being right 9 times out of 10. YMMV Edited November 10, 2013 by BigK

[Joe357]

I have read this entire thread, reading both points and counter points. The bottom line is this guy was looking for a confrontation with LEO, there are just to many examples of this on the internet, very similar to this. This is not the wild west. When you are in public you should act accordingly. If you are asked by a police office what you are doing and you are doing nothing wrong why would you not cooperate unless you are trying to make a spectacle of yourself or you are doing something illegal. I don't believe open carry in a park with play areas for children and seeing children present is a acceptable situation especially with what has happened a few months ago up north.

[Guest Fallschirmjäger]

Part of me still says that carrying a recorder around everywhere I go is paranoid behavior at the least and surreptitious at the most. If one only carries a recorder when they OC, it still seems mostly surreptitious to me. I've never wanted/needed to OC bad enough to "risk" winding up in a situation like this. My personal choice is to carry concealed and avoid the hassle.

In all fairness, though, there are those that feel like carrying a gun at all "risks" winding up in a situation of some kind. Likewise, these types think carrying a gun for protection is paranoid too.

Either way, the attitude I choose to display to the officer seems to me like it's going to have the most effect on how the confrontation goes. Right or wrong being nice instead of insisting on being right is good karma and goes a long way. I'll choose not being a test case, not being hassled, and not making the news over being right 9 times out of 10. YMMV

Given the low number of incidents each year, one might easily make the point that carrying around a 4-$500 gun around everywhere was more paranoid than carrying around a $39 WallyWorld voice recorder.  I'm not quite sure what you define "surreptitious" about it when there's no hidden microphones and it's carried openly on my belt (including nice glow-ey red light thingy that's easily seen.

Carrying concealed, I look like a nice, slow target ripe for the plucking. With a firearm, I look like a nice, slow target that will put a hurt on a mugger.  I prefer deterrence to crime; that's why we make police officers wear gaudy uniforms with shiny badges and make them drive cars with distinctive paint jobs - to be seen.

I have read this entire thread, reading both points and counter points. The bottom line is this guy was looking for a confrontation with LEO, there are just to many examples of this on the internet, very similar to this. This is not the wild west. When you are in public you should act accordingly. If you are asked by a police office what you are doing and you are doing nothing wrong why would you not cooperate unless you are trying to make a spectacle of yourself or you are doing something illegal. I don't believe open carry in a park with play areas for children and seeing children present is a acceptable situation especially with what has happened a few months ago up north.

Joe, "looking for a confrontation" does not explain why I, for over a year, had not been molested while walking in the same podunk city park, in the same podunk backwoods town in Georgia.

Had I been "looking for a confrontation" I'm sure I could have done something more flashy, say like going downtown and having lunch to the State Capital in Atlanta and openly carrying a firearm there.

Oh, wait... lots of people did.  And they weren't "confronted."

[url=http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/showpost.php?p=2541392&postcount=39]Lunch Downtown[/url]

[url=http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/showthread.php?t=246003&highlight=lunch] And a second lunch,[/url] with a photo album, I believe

[url=http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/showthread.php?t=251128&highlight=bloomberg]At the State Capital in Atlanta[/url] Pics begin on page 4.

 

 

Okay, there was One, tiny confrontation.

But mostly he just wanted people to look at the phone he pulled out that showed off the custom holsters he made.

[Guest RebelCowboySnB]

Look, Lawyers open carrying.....

[East_TN_Patriot]

Look, Lawyers open carrying.....

Yup, in what appears to be a private venue specifically organized for a firearms related event.  A far cry from OCing at a public park.  

As best I can discern from all of this, the individual involved decided to open-carry and gave the police a hard time when a little cooperation would have very likely solved the problem without any legal action taken.  I'm as suspicious of the police as anyone, and I used to be a cop, but I don't ask for trouble by giving an officer a hard time when they are just trying to do their job, even if I think the job at that moment is BS.  

As I have stated in multiple other threads, and as others have said in this one, go open-carrying in a world that is not comfortable with the practice, you are opening yourself up for this sort of thing.  I didn't OC as an off-duty police officer for the same reason.