unreasonable or warranted search

[Guest RebelCowboySnB]

Yup, in what appears to be a private venue specifically organized for a firearms related event.  A far cry from OCing at a public park.

Actually I think it is an open diner. Not sure though. I dont get to go to these thigs as I live on the Tn border an cant aford the drive. They do meet in parks too though.



Fall, am I right in me thinking that is Jerry an MP? Edited November 11, 2013 by RebelCowboySnB

[Guest Fallschirmjäger]

Actually I think it is an open diner. Not sure though. I dont get to go to these thigs as I live on the Tn border an cant aford the drive. They do meet in parks too though.

Falls, am I right in me thinking that is Jerry an MP?

All three "venues" were open to the public, there was no paid admission and no tickets sold ta the door.

The APD officer is Officer Murphy, the distinguished follicly-challenged gentleman is Jerry Henry, and the bearded "urban outdoorsman" looking chap is our very own Malum Prohibitum.

 

If the gentleman from East Tennessee has been keeping up, he's probably noticed (on page 2) the picture taken in the very same Gary Pirkle Park, (a non-private 'venue', I might add.) but in case he missed it, I'll repost it.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Fallschirmjäger

[DaveS]

Maybe this has been answered already, if so...forgive me. Why would this dude purposely leave his ID in his car, but bring a "recorder" as that's what I understand. I suspect he was wanting a confrontation. Just my two cents. If not, why not leave the recorder and bring the ID?

 

DaveS

[c.a.willard]

IIRC, he leaves his license in his car so that he doesn't accidentally forget it.  Not just for the walk, but according to him it stays in the car on pretty much a permanent basis.  I can buy that, i know other people that do the same. 

[DaveS]

IIRC, he leaves his license in his car so that he doesn't accidentally forget it.  Not just for the walk, but according to him it stays in the car on pretty much a permanent basis.  I can buy that, i know other people that do the same. 

I guess it worked out for him, huh? It seems like here lately that that's a little game everyone wants to play. Refuse to show ID, refuse to answer LEO's questions and start the cameras rolling! Some folks think they'll just drop dead if they had a good encounter with LE. And at the same time, cry that their rights are being violated if the LEO was video taping them for his protection. What's good for one is good for the other right? I just don't agree with all this damn recording of LEO's. Find another hobby like recording wildlife or something.

 

DaveS

Edited November 12, 2013 by DaveS

[Chucktshoes]

I guess it worked out for him, huh? It seems like here lately that that's a little game everyone wants to play. Refuse to show ID, refuse to answer LEO's questions and start the cameras rolling! Some folks think they'll just drop dead if they had a good encounter with LE. And at the same time, cry that their rights are being violated if the LEO was video taping them for his protection. What's good for one is good for the other right? I just don't agree with all this damn recording of LEO's. Find another hobby like recording wildlife or something.

 

DaveS

Most people assume that the LEO is recording if they are near the cruiser. Usually it is the LEO who seems to have a problem being recorded. That's why there are court cases affirming the right to do so. In this case it appears as if the recording caught the officer in a few out and out lies. If I was a cop that was prone to lying in the reports, I might not like being recorded either. 

[Guest Fallschirmjäger]

I guess it worked out for him, huh? It seems like here lately that that's a little game everyone wants to play. Refuse to show ID, refuse to answer LEO's questions and start the cameras rolling! Some folks think they'll just drop dead if they had a good encounter with LE. And at the same time, cry that their rights are being violated if the LEO was video taping them for his protection. What's good for one is good for the other right? I just don't agree with all this damn recording of LEO's. Find another hobby like recording wildlife or something.

 

DaveS

Yes, I suppose you might say it worked out quite well, I have no criminal record, I have not arrest record (it's being expunged as we speak), I have a shiny new AR and a few thousand extra in my pocket.

By the way...

I didn't refuse to show ID, so that's a baseless assertion on your part.

I didn't refuse to answer the nice officer's questions until it became excruciatingly clear that he had no suspicion of illegality upon which to make his detainment and was furiously fishing upon something, Anything to hang his hat on.  I was absolutely willing to clear my name against any allegations of illegality and asked multiple officers, multiple times if there was anything criminal I was suspected of.  None answered. 

Sergeant Greg Chapel told me that when I was given a GWL I was expected to cooperate with law enforcement.  I asked him what was I not doing that was required, he couldn't answer.

 

Finally, one of the officers got a bright idea to "teach a lesson."  He made a bad arrest, one that he knew would be thrown out, and that he knew the department would have qualified immunity for because they had acted on a magistrate's warrant.

So, based upon a mere accusation, and without the tiniest bit of investigation they made an arrest.  Allow me to repeat that if I may, with emphasis.  Based Solely Upon an Accusation and Without Any Investigation, the Police Made an Arrest.  They knew it was bad at the time, they didn't care; they'd "taught a lesson."

The transcript of the detainment is located here https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3DJ7h3BEPHcVzVQZUZIcUNsRmc/edit?usp=drive_web

You'll want page #23 of 24 pages, but I'll be happy to copy/paste the relevant passage:

 

 

Officer Adam Garth Bell. "When’s the last time you cleaned your gun?

Proescher, "I just put a hundred and fifty rounds through it last night, it’s probably filthy.

Bell, "Nice little Smith, though.

Proescher, "It fits my hand better than a Glock does."

Bell, "Nice gun.  What do you do for a living, Chris? You work? You’re retired?  You’re on disability? What do you do for a living?  Lawyer?  You sound like a lawyer."

Corporal J.P. Kimsey returns

Kimsey, "10-95, Criminal Trespass. (To Bell) If that’s what you want?  That’s…. we have the charge. He (Hanna) asked him (Proescher) to leave, he (Proescher) refused.”

Proescher, "Got a feeling the digital tape recording won’t bear that out."

Kimsey, "Well we’ll listen to that later.  Like I said, we’re under good faith right now, he’s getting a written statement for us, okay."

Proescher, " I appreciate that."

 

That's IT.  No investigation, no questions asked, just "he said you did it, you're under arrest."

 

Now, imagine you're having a disagreement with your neighbor, maybe over who borrowed who's lawnmower or how high the hedges are.  The police come by in response to him calling them.  They see there's nothing illegal going on.  The neighbor says, "He raped my wife and kissed my dog."

The police then arrest you and take you to jail; no questions asked.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Fallschirmjäger

[DaveS]

Yes, I suppose you might say it worked out quite well, I have no criminal record, I have not arrest record (it's being expunged as we speak), I have a shiny new AR and a few thousand extra in my pocket.

By the way...

I didn't refuse to show ID, so that's a baseless assertion on your part.

I didn't refuse to answer the nice officer's questions until it became excruciatingly clear that he had no suspicion of illegality upon which to make his detainment and was furiously fishing upon something, Anything to hang his hat on.  I was absolutely willing to clear my name against any allegations of illegality and asked multiple officers, multiple times if there was anything criminal I was suspected of.  None answered. 

Sergeant Greg Chapel told me that when I was given a GWL I was expected to cooperate with law enforcement.  I asked him what was I not doing that was required, he couldn't answer.

 

Finally, one of the officers got a bright idea to "teach a lesson."  He made a bad arrest, one that he knew would be thrown out, and that he knew the department would have qualified immunity for because they had acted on a magistrate's warrant.

So, based upon a mere accusation, and without the tiniest bit of investigation they made an arrest.  Allow me to repeat that if I may, with emphasis.  Based Solely Upon an Accusation and Without Any Investigation, the Police Made an Arrest.  They knew it was bad at the time, they didn't care; they'd "taught a lesson."

The transcript of the detainment is located here https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3DJ7h3BEPHcVzVQZUZIcUNsRmc/edit?usp=drive_web

You'll want page #23 of 24 pages, but I'll be happy to copy/paste the relevant passage:

 

 

 

That's IT.  No investigation, no questions asked, just "he said you did it, you're under arrest."

 

Now, imagine you're having a disagreement with your neighbor, maybe over who borrowed who's lawnmower or how high the hedges are.  The police come by in response to him calling them.  They see there's nothing illegal going on.  The neighbor says, "He raped my wife and kissed my dog."

The police then arrest you and take you to jail; no questions asked.

But my question to you Sir; why did you leave your ID in your car, but brought your recorder on a walk instead? Was it for a possible police encounter? Were the deer mating and you wanted it recorded? Were the birds singing? Do you always bring a recorder on your walks? I don't get it. Why? I'm sorry Sir, but I smell a rat. You may be right, and I applaud you for that. I've been wrong before, been right a few times...but hey, I'm up to a challenge! But a rat smells like a rat. The recorder part really bugs me.

 

DaveS

Edited November 12, 2013 by DaveS

[Chucktshoes]

But my question to you Sir; why did you leave your ID in your car, but brought your recorder on a walk instead? Was it for a possible police encounter? Were the deer mating and you wanted it recorded? Were the birds singing? Do you always bring a recorder on your walks? I don't get it. Why? I'm sorry Sir, but I smell a rat. I've been wrong before, been right a few times...but hey, I'm up to a challenge!

 

DaveS

He left his driver's license in the car. He had his Georgia Weapons License on him and gave it to the officer when he was asked for ID. Earlier in the thread he stated that he always has a recorder on his person. I would say it is a good thing too as it saved his bacon this time by catching the officer in a lie when compared to the officer's reports.

[DaveTN]

That's IT.  No investigation, no questions asked, just "he said you did it, you're under arrest."

I don’t know what GA law is and I really don’t want you to explain it to me here, but do you think you would have been arrested if you had your ID with you and cooperated with the cops?
Have you posted the audio of the conversation?

[DaveS]

He left his driver's license in the car. He had his Georgia Weapons License on him and gave it to the officer when he was asked for ID. Earlier in the thread he stated that he always has a recorder on his person. I would say it is a good thing too as it saved his bacon this time by catching the officer in a lie when compared to the officer's reports.

So please tell me Chuck, who ALWAYS has a recorder on them? No one except someone who's looking for a confrontation. Maybe the dude was 100% right...the recorder bugs me. What the hell....I'll start carrying one tomorrow. Never know when something cool might happen. That's all I'm saying. For some reason, all those Georgia boys are carrying recorders. Why? I still smell a rat! Sorry.

 

DaveS

[DaveS]

I don’t know what GA law is and I really don’t want you to explain it to me here, but do you think you would have been arrested if you had your ID with you and cooperated with the cops?
Have you posted the audio of the conversation?

I would like to hear the audio also.

 

DaveS

[dawgdoc]

After hearing his story and seeing the subsequent outcome, I've considered getting a recorder.  Not because of how I carry (which is 99% of the time concealed), but because it seems like this would be the only way to prove your side of the story in any situation  involving an arrest, detention, etc.  You shouldn't have to prove your side, but that's what it seems like sometimes.  (Like those numerous people who had large amounts of cash confiscated by Tennessee cops, and then had to prove they weren't drug dealers). 

 

I have not gone out and bought a recorder, but I have put a recorder widget in an easy to locate spot on my phone.  I don't keep it on, but I have decided that any interaction with a representative of the government will be recorded.  Its sad, but I have heard numerous instances where the citizen's word was given less credence than the government official.

 

I'm not looking to sue anyone, I just want to protect myself.

 

 

And all the audio is posted on the first page of this thread:  http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/showthread.php?t=237726

Edited November 13, 2013 by dawgdoc

[Chucktshoes]

I have qik video and an audio recorder on my phone and set up to start working within just a couple of screen taps. I have those apps ready for the same reason I carry a gun, "just in case".

[Fourtyfive]

Uh, ok. I have not a clue what that post even means.

 

Anyone else see the irony here?

 

 

It's actually my fault and really I should have taken note of something very telling before responding. You have a post stating "Non-compliance is reason for arrest, plain and simple" and "we the people will not comply" in your signature LMAO. Oh yeah and "Don't Tread On Me"......Good stuff.

 

:confused:

 

Glad you got a LMAO over my sig. The non-compliance part and the reason for arrest "Trespassing" are no different. All I had to go by was what I could read at the time. I have no problem with the explanation later. All agreed that more explanation does good. 

 

Not complying in my signature has to do with not handing over my guns , you might remember that.

 

The rest I should not have to explain , I am willing to " Bury the hatchet." How about you ?

 

Why you think I don't like being treaded upon is beyond my comprehension. Maybe it's why I went off on the morning invasion I experienced from Georgia ? I am not a morning person.

 

Trying to be reasonable ,  normally I am.

[Guest RebelCowboySnB]

I would like to hear the audio also.
 
DaveS

What he posted in Ga...



The Call That Started it All
HANNA - Call to GCPD.mp3

My so-called "suspicious attire"
My recording of the incident at Gary Pirkle Park (The faint of heart may wish to avoid the first 20 minutes of heavy breathing.)
My transcript of the recording made at Gary Pirkle Park on 20 April 2019


The Responding Officer's Incident Reports for 20 April
Ofc. Adam Garth Bell
Ofc. Rodney Dantzler
Cpl. Joseph Kimsey
Security Guard Paul Reid Hanna

This led to an arrest for criminal trespass, with a trial date scheduled for 09 July.

On 27 April, Bell, Dantzler and Hanna were named in a Civil Suit.

29 June, the Gwinnett County Solicitor found insufficient evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and made a request to Nolle Prosequi the case.
29 June - Nolle Prosequi


On 10 July, an amended complaint filed naming Hanna, Bell and Dantzler as defendants.
Civil Suit

The three named individuals answered the Civil Complaint.
Bell Answers - 20 July
Dantzler Answers - 23 July
Hanna Answers - 20 July




_______________________________________________________________________
On 29 August, the attorney for Mr. Hanna and the Gwinnett County attorney representing Officers Bell and Dantzler deposed me.
Proescher deposition, 29 August.pdf

Mr. John Monroe deposed Mr. Hanna on the same date.
Paul Reid Hanna deposition, 29 August.pdf

On 30 August, Officers Bell and Dantzler were deposed by Mr. John Monroe
Officer Adam Garth Bell deposition, 30 August.pdf

Officer Rodney Dantzler deposition, 30 August.pdf Edited November 13, 2013 by RebelCowboySnB

[DaveS]

After hearing his story and seeing the subsequent outcome, I've considered getting a recorder.  Not because of how I carry (which is 99% of the time concealed), but because it seems like this would be the only way to prove your side of the story in any situation  involving an arrest, detention, etc.  You shouldn't have to prove your side, but that's what it seems like sometimes.  (Like those numerous people who had large amounts of cash confiscated by Tennessee cops, and then had to prove they weren't drug dealers). 

 

I have not gone out and bought a recorder, but I have put a recorder widget in an easy to locate spot on my phone.  I don't keep it on, but I have decided that any interaction with a representative of the government will be recorded.  Its sad, but I have heard numerous instances where the citizen's word was given less credence than the government official.

 

I'm not looking to sue anyone, I just want to protect myself.

 

 

And all the audio is posted on the first page of this thread:  http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/showthread.php?t=237726

Cool.

 

DaveS

[DaveS]

I have qik video and an audio recorder on my phone and set up to start working within just a couple of screen taps. I have those apps ready for the same reason I carry a gun, "just in case".

I never worry about it Chuck. I have nothing to hide or no worries. No warrants no worries! Not out to prove nothing. I mind to my own affairs and cause no public issues. If a cop asks me my name, I'll tell him. If he wants my ID, I'll show him. Wants to know the weapon serial number, I'll tell. I plan on going home at the end of the day, as I have nothing to fear or hide. But that's just me. And above all that, I'm not even going to record him!

 

DaveS

Edited November 13, 2013 by DaveS

[Guest RebelCowboySnB]

So please tell me Chuck, who ALWAYS has a recorder on them? No one except someone who's looking for a confrontation.

georgiapacking.org is full of people that carry one all the time. Very few have ever been detained.It is just normal in Ga that we tell everyone to cary one if they can. Probably never need it but thats the same mindset we have about guns to.

georgia2a.com has a thread on it going right now.http://georgia2a.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=321 Edited November 13, 2013 by RebelCowboySnB

[Guest RebelCowboySnB]

This thread reminds me....

Me an the kids spent several hours at the playground in 2 Ga parks yesterday. Kids an parents having a good time an as usual, no one called the cops to tell them about my revolver. Dont think anyone even noticed it. Edited November 13, 2013 by RebelCowboySnB

[Chucktshoes]

I never worry about it Chuck. I have nothing to hide or no worries. No warrants no worries! Not out to prove nothing. I mind to my own affairs and cause no public issues. If a cop asks me my name, I'll tell him. If he wants my ID, I'll show him. Wants to know the weapon serial number, I'll tell. I plan on going home at the end of the day, as I have nothing to fear or hide. But that's just me. And above all that, I'm not even going to record him!

DaveS

Whether I have something to hide or not is immaterial to the discussion. I will reveal what I choose, when I choose to and in the manner I choose as long as the encounter remains consensual. I don't record my casual conversations with my cop friends & acquaintances just because they are cops. I will record any "professional" encounter with an officer not because I don't trust cops but because I don't trust people and a badge isn't a magic talisman of moral uprightness.

[c.a.willard]

So please tell me Chuck, who ALWAYS has a recorder on them? No one except someone who's looking for a confrontation. Maybe the dude was 100% right...the recorder bugs me. What the hell....I'll start carrying one tomorrow. Never know when something cool might happen. That's all I'm saying. For some reason, all those Georgia boys are carrying recorders. Why? I still smell a rat! Sorry.

 

DaveS

 

Dave, I think that is a slippery slope your traveling down with the recorder.  Not tremendously different from the leftest argument that carrying a gun means your seeking confrontation.  Personally i don't see the need for me to carry a recorder, but i can understand why some feel that it is in there best interest to record conversations with LE.   I wish i could say that there are no dishonest police officers, but we both know that that is not the case.  Additionally it assists in preventing the he said she said that can come from encounters with non LE, like the security guard in this case.  Again, i agree that i dont find it personally necessary, but it is not a guaranteed indicator that someone is seeking confrontation either.

[DaveS]

Dave, I think that is a slippery slope your traveling down with the recorder.  Not tremendously different from the leftest argument that carrying a gun means your seeking confrontation.  Personally i don't see the need for me to carry a recorder, but i can understand why some feel that it is in there best interest to record conversations with LE.   I wish i could say that there are no dishonest police officers, but we both know that that is not the case.  Additionally it assists in preventing the he said she said that can come from encounters with non LE, like the security guard in this case.  Again, i agree that i dont find it personally necessary, but it is not a guaranteed indicator that someone is seeking confrontation either.

I'll agree with that. It's not for me but does sounds OK.

 

DaveS

[RichardR]

Audio recording app on smartphone = no extra crap to carry.

[Chucktshoes]

Audio recording app on smartphone = no extra crap to carry.

Exactly. I already have too much crap in my pockets.