Handgun Permit Revocation

[Westwindmike]

Who cuffs in front without a belt restraint/belly chain?

[TripleDigitRide]

Who cuffs in front without a belt restraint/belly chain?

Good point. Because the OP said the inmate was cuffed but refusing to keep his hands on the wall, I assumed they didn't also utilize additional restraints. if this is the case, maybe they need to consider doing so, for the safety of the guards and other inmates.

[Guest tdoccrossvilletn]

[quote name="TripleDigitRide" post="1058152" timestamp="1383515491"] While I'm not defending the OP, if a person is cuffed in the front, they can be extremely dangerous. Don't believe me? Allow someone in cuffs to get behind you and and get his cuffed hands around your throat.[/quote] Cuffed in the front yes cuffed in the back not so much. We don't cuff them in the front unless we use a black box with leg and body chains. The rest of the time they are cuffed behind their backs. The only time protocol says not to cuff them in the front without black box is if they are a pregnant woman. That inmate in this scenario would have at least been cuffed in the back face and chest against the wall. Legs spread apart as far as they can go. Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy. Edited November 3, 2013 by tdoccrossvilletn

[TripleDigitRide]

Cuffed in the front yes cuffed in the back not so much. We don't cuff them in the front unless we use a black box with leg and body chains.



Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.

Based on the OP's description of the event, this doesn't appear to be the case.

[Guest tdoccrossvilletn]

Based on the OP's description of the event, this doesn't appear to be the case.

Right which is his mistake and probably violation of policy.

Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.

[Dolomite_supafly]

There are always two sides to the story and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Even the OP's version is questionable behavior so I am sure it was a lot worse in reality.

 

Hi My name is Bob, I live in Hamilton County TN I had my hand gun carry permit revoked in an unpresidented move by Sheriff Jim Hammond for "Being a risk of harm to the public". The details are while employed by HCSO as a Corrections Officer I was patting down a handcuffed inmate and the inmate posed a security threat by taking his hands off the wall 2 times as I found some  minor contraband on him prior to his court appearance. On the third time of taking his hands off the wall I attempted to take him down to the ground when another Officer grabbed my arms from behind  preventing my from defending myself, with that the inmate assaulted me by palm striking me on my arm. The Officer claims he was protecting me from assaulting the inmate. I did not strike or kick the inmate and had no intention to do so. During a later debriefing I was given an opportunity to Iaddress this officer. Being from New York City my Brooklyn  upbringing came out when I told him "You lucky I didn't F**k you up and that I can control myself and if you did this on the street I know officers in New York who would have Punched your mother F**k'in lights out" and I was sent back to work with him without incident on both occassions. The Captain claimed during my termination hearing  that he heard rumours that I threatened to kill that officer and The then Chief of Corrections (Now demoted to Capt.)  stated he heard I threaten to kill my supervisors and that they were in fear of me. Under policy the Capt. did not conduct an investigation of the rumour or notify Internal Affairs. I was not charged with any infraction.
 The jail area where this occurred was under video surveilance, request for tape under FOIL had gone unanswered and was erased 5 days after the request was recieved and I was told by the HR Mgr. that it took 5 days to get to her from records and taped over, the Captain claims no camera views that area and the subject officer confirms the area was under video surveilance.
I was suspended and terminated for being unfit for duty.
I retired from NYPD in 2000 after 21 yrs of service with 14 of those yrs in the rank of Sergeant. Previous, I was a NYC Corrections Officer and a Investigator(Intelligence) for the NY State Liquor Authority. My education is BS Police Science John Jay College of Criminal Justice and one semester short of completing my BA in History and Secondary Education College of Staten Island with all my Teacher licensing exams completed.
I appealed pro se at Sessions Court and pleaded that I did not threaten that officer and in the Officers testimony he stated that he wasn't sure what I said and thought I said that if he did that again I would take him behind the woodshed for a whippin. (It sure sounds like what someone from Brooklyn would say.) I argued that I did not threaten the Officer and he testified that he didn't remember what I said. Judge Bales said I must have said something to that affect and it was against the law to threaten to assault someone and upholding my revocation.  Director Gorman stated that the Sheriff's Office no longer objects to me having my handgun permit but the District Attorney does. I am appealing because I feel the Judge erred in his decision because I wasn't found guilty of a crime or offence, the District Attorney office is opposing my revocation not Homeland Security and only the Sheriff and  Homeland Security have standing according to TN law and I have a witness statement that concurs with my statement. The case has been postponed twice because the DA's Office now states somone in Homeland Security opposes my reinstatement but they don't know who. Meanwhile I am prohibited from carrying my weapon and economically deprived of working as a armed security guard.

 
That one sentence is very telling. You say you can control yourself as you threaten a fellow officer.

 

Was the inmate handcuffed in the front or the back?

 

Also, were you fired or did you resign in lieu of being fired?

 

Not a FOP member?

 

The way I see it there have been enough people who have seen the case, as well as your mannerisms and demeanor, to say with great certainty that you should probably not have a HCP.

 

If you are being paid for providing security in TN you MUST have a guard license issued by the state of TN. Armed or unarmed doesn't matter but if it is armed you must have an armed guard license that requires a qualification with your carry weapon(s). If you get hurt you might be SOL because you were breaking the law at the time you were injured. 
 

New York City does not recognize out of town permits, you still need a permit for a handgun license not available to out of town residents, HR218 does not necessary apply in certain states, yes I'm venting, To the TN CO "when your searching a inmate and he takes his hands off the wall and looks at you as a target do you just stand there or at what nano second before impact do you react ?". I said Iwas going to take him down and my intent was to furtherestrain him not body slam him. Yes, I now employed a lawyer, I worked in a hostile environment due to adminitrative competence and tried to perform my duties with impossible perfection and I maintain my personal integrity. I want to vent to an audience for validation and to fight injustice you often need supporters to carry you through.

 

An inmate staring at you in NOT a reason to take them to the ground. An inmate taking his hands off the wall and staring at you is NOT a reason to take them to the ground. And we all know that taking someone to the ground is never done gingerly. If you worked in a hostile enviroment why did you not quit as soon as it became apparent. That allegation will get tossed out because it is obvious and allegation that it retaliatory in nature.

 

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the original post has already made its way into the hands of this SO considering the number of LEOs on this board and the specific information included in the post. This is not conducive to furthering the OPs cause. This will work against you. Get a lawyer and ask nicely to have this thread deleted, along with any other threads on other forums.

I am not deleting or locking threads to save people from themselves. If another mod wants to they can but David has unlocked several threads I locked at the OP's request.
 

I am trying to see fault in the process and I cannot. There is always the option of getting a HCP from another state.

[Guest tdoccrossvilletn]

Was the inmate handcuffed in the front or the back?

The way I see it there have been enough people who have seen the case, as well as your mannerisms and demeanor, to say with great certainty that you should probably not have a HCP.

If you are being paid for providing security in TN you MUST have a guard license issued by the state of TN. Armed or unarmed doesn't matter but if it is armed you must have an armed guard license that requires a qualification with your carry weapon(s). If you get hurt you might be SOL because you were breaking the law at the time you were injured.

An inmate staring at you is NOT a reason to take them to the ground. An inmate taking his hands off the wall and staring at you is NOT a reason to take them to the ground. And we all know that taking someone to the ground is never done gingerly.

+ infinity. These are exactly the points I was trying to make but you did it more eloquently.

Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.

[East_TN_Patriot]

[...]while employed by HCSO as a Corrections Officer I was patting down a handcuffed inmate and the inmate posed a security threat by taking his hands off the wall 2 times as I found some  minor contraband on him prior to his court appearance. On the third time of taking his hands off the wall I attempted to take him down to the ground when another Officer grabbed my arms from behind  preventing my from defending myself, with that the inmate assaulted me by palm striking me on my arm. The Officer claims he was protecting me from assaulting the inmate. I did not strike or kick the inmate and had no intention to do so. During a later debriefing I was given an opportunity to Iaddress this officer. Being from New York City my Brooklyn  upbringing came out when I told him "You lucky I didn't F**k you up and that I can control myself and if you did this on the street I know officers in New York who would have Punched your mother F**k'in lights out"[...] 

Lawyer or no lawyer, if this is what happened, you are going to have a very hard time justifying actions. Why?  It's very difficult to provide a reasonable explanation of how a handcuffed individual held inside of a secure correctional facility can pose a serious "security threat" by taking their hands off of the wall.  This tells me that one of three scenarios was going on here: 1) You had the inmate handcuffed in front, which is dumb, 2) the inmate was cuffed in the rear and had his back against the wall and could not pose much of a threat unless they were going to bite you or kick you, neither of which was described by you, or 3) the person was handcuffed, took his hands off of the wall, you got pissed and put hands on him because you felt your authority was being challenged, and now you are concocting this narrative to cover your bad decisions.  My vote is for option three because of the other points highlighted in red above.  

Clearly, your co-worker felt the "security threat" actually came from you because they felt the need to physically restrain you and not the inmate.  I have worked around enough cops and corrections officers to know that they do not physically restrain a fellow officer unless they are completely out of control.  I believe you very likely were out of control at that moment due to your own statement about "F***ing up" your co-worker in a later debriefing.  The NYPD is known for their heavy-handed tactics - as you so eloquently state yourself - so I have little doubt that you used unjustified force against that inmate, and now you are paying the price for not following the law and policy.  I hope I am mistaken, but I'm confident I am not.

[McGarrett]

New York City does not recognize out of town permits, you still need a permit for a handgun license not available to out of town residents, HR218 does not necessary apply in certain states, yes I'm venting, To the TN CO "when your searching a inmate and he takes his hands off the wall and looks at you as a target do you just stand there or at what nano second before impact do you react ?". I said Iwas going to take him down and my intent was to furtherestrain him not body slam him. Yes, I now employed a lawyer,  I worked in a hostile environment due to adminitrative competence and tried to perform my duties with impossible perfection and I maintain my personal integrity. I want to vent to an audience for validation and to fight injustice you often need supporters to carry you through.     

Lawyer- good move.

 

Venting- just remember anything you say can and will be used against you. However therapeutic it might seem you should be concerned of how this could negatively impact your cause.

 

Validation- not sure you will get that here.

 

Fight injustice- I'm all for it. Is this an injustice? I am not so sure.

 

Just my opinion but I have noticed most of the focus has been on the incident with your handling of the inmate. I do not claim to know anything about the corrections job but as a supervisor I could not condone the remarks/ threat you made to the other officer and whether you realize it he may have saved you from getting into more trouble during the handling of the inmate.

 

If I heard an exchange like that between 2 of my employees you better believe someone would be facing disciplinary action and/ or termination. I will mention again the difference in being in TN vs NY. I have lived in TN all my life and I do not talk that way to my co-workers or anyone for that matter. Forget about the inmate for a minute and think on what you said to the other officer.

 

Does all this have legal weight against your hcp? Do you need to carry a handgun if you have trouble controlling yourself in stressful situations? I could not answer for sure on that but it might be time to re-evaluate your attitude and the way you interact with others. A few things that come to mind are discipline, self control, respect, courtesy, and professionalism. See the quote from the movie Lonesome Dove that is listed below in my signature.

 

Not trying to give you a hard time, just some constructive criticism. Just my 2 cents.

Edited November 3, 2013 by McGarrett

[mikegideon]

Lawyer or no lawyer, if this is what happened, you are going to have a very hard time justifying actions. Why?  It's very difficult to provide a reasonable explanation of how a handcuffed individual held inside of a secure correctional facility can pose a serious "security threat" by taking their hands off of the wall.  This tells me that one of three scenarios was going on here: 1) You had the inmate handcuffed in front, which is dumb, 2) the inmate was cuffed in the rear and had his back against the wall and could not pose much of a threat unless they were going to bite you or kick you, neither of which was described by you, or 3) the person was handcuffed, took his hands off of the wall, you got pissed and put hands on him because you felt your authority was being challenged, and now you are concocting this narrative to cover your bad decisions.  My vote is for option three because of the other points highlighted in red above.  

Clearly, your co-worker felt the "security threat" actually came from you because they felt the need to physically restrain you and not the inmate.  I have worked around enough cops and corrections officers to know that they do not physically restrain a fellow officer unless they are completely out of control.  I believe you very likely were out of control at that moment due to your own statement about "F***ing up" your co-worker in a later debriefing.  The NYPD is known for their heavy-handed tactics - as you so eloquently state yourself - so I have little doubt that you used unjustified force against that inmate, and now you are paying the price for not following the law and policy.  I hope I am mistaken, but I'm confident I am not.

 

Every once in awhile, you just hit one out of the park. This is one of those times.

[MacGyver]

I'm not sure why we're seeing this now.

If press accounts are accurate, the civil service board, made up of citizens in Hamilton County ruled unanimously to uphold this firing almost a year ago.

What's changed to bring it to the surface? I'm not sure the OP has a future in private security regardless of whether or not he gets his permit back.

[TripleDigitRide]

The psychological evaluation was and is the nail in your coffin. If you want a handgun carry permit, you'll have to move to another state.

[monkeylizard]

Maybe these guys are hiring:

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2011/11/01/tactical-bodyguard-services/

 

[bubbadavis]

Love the gun handling skills of the women in that picture. Nice grip by 2nd from left. Even better, 3rd from left has the muzzle pointing at Kojak's chin.

[billyscott]

Oh . . and welcome to TGO bobkoz120

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I've got a hornet's nest in my yard if you would like to come over and smack it with a stick.

[JayC]

First, I've seen draft legislation that would remove TDOS ability to revoke, in cases such as this.

 

I don't think Yeager is out of pocket much money, since TDOS lost the case I'm pretty sure he can recover legal fees.

 

Further, it's a bad law and needs to be gone...  Yeager is a perfect example of somebody that poses no threat to the general public and only got his permit pulled because he said something stupid about the political process.  Frankly, I wish he had pressed the issue after getting his permit reinstated and filed a 1983 lawsuit against TDOS for violating his 1st Amendment rights.

 

At the very least TDOS should have to go before a judge and request that your permit be revoked, and you should have the ability to contest that request in that hearing.

 

At some point one of these cases will result in emails getting released that show a political connection to a revocation and TDOS will loose the ability to suspend permits at their sole whim.

 

The law won't get repealed... ever. Now, he can get an attorney, battle it out, and maybe prevail. If he does, they're just gonna say oops, and reinstate him. Still could result in a lot of out-of-pocket.

 

James said a stupid thing on the Internet (pretty sure he freely admits that now). He knew it was stupid shortly after he posted it, and pulled the video. Still, there was no physical altercation. Even without that, I'm sure his wallet got a lot lighter, or he burned through some owed favors.

 

Anyway, it's hard to beat these guys at their own game. Just ask Lenny.

 

[mikegideon]

First, I've seen draft legislation that would remove TDOS ability to revoke, in cases such as this.

 

I don't think Yeager is out of pocket much money, since TDOS lost the case I'm pretty sure he can recover legal fees.

 

Further, it's a bad law and needs to be gone...  Yeager is a perfect example of somebody that poses no threat to the general public and only got his permit pulled because he said something stupid about the political process.  Frankly, I wish he had pressed the issue after getting his permit reinstated and filed a 1983 lawsuit against TDOS for violating his 1st Amendment rights.

 

At the very least TDOS should have to go before a judge and request that your permit be revoked, and you should have the ability to contest that request in that hearing.

 

At some point one of these cases will result in emails getting released that show a political connection to a revocation and TDOS will loose the ability to suspend permits at their sole whim.

 

There's proposed legislation about everything. I just don't ever see them removing the ability to act immediately. Sure, the law was designed to be abused. Sure, it's gonna be abused, like most other laws. But since there IS a review process, and a path to reinstatement, my money says that it will never change. 

[Dolomite_supafly]

One more thing. It takes a lot for another officer to intervene against another officer. 99 times out of 100 if there is a scuffle another officer will jump in to help the officer, it takes a whole lot more for the officer to get involved on behalf of the bad guy. It has to be so one sided for the other officer to cross back over that thin blue line. The officer that helped the bad guy risks being labeled a rat which is just as much of a career ender as doing something wrong.

 

I have seen, and helped stop, one officer that went overboard and it was a brutal beating. Then bad guy was already restrained, under control and compliant but spat into the officer's face. The officer unloaded on the bad guy. The officer said he remembered covering the bad guy's face with an open hand to keep him from spitting agian but what really happened was four haymaker type punches to the bad guy's face as well as kneeing him several times. And honestly if everyone hadn't tackled the officer he would have likely killed the bad guy because he was unable to even put his hands up. And even after we tackled the officer he continued to fight to get to the bad guy until he regained his composure.The officer didn't think it was that bad until he seen the video then he walked upstairs on his own to let the administration know he was resigning. He was a great officer that let his emotions get out of control.

[Guest bobkoz120]

As and update I finally received my hand gun permit after hiring a lawyer and after 7 months going through postponements and 4 months waiting for processing at TN Homeland Security.

 

[dralarms]

Glad it worked out for you.

[MacGyver]

Make good choices...

[gregintenn]

Fun thread. I hate I missed it the first go 'round.

 

Welcome to Tennessee. :love:

[Guest theconstitutionrocks]

To the OP....

While there are two sides to every story, well, three if you can get to the absolute truth, IMO there is some poetic justice being served here:

 

1. For 21 years you were a member of one of the most overbearing, rights infringing law enforcement organizations in this country. Under your watch your fellow employees violated the very basics of 4th amendment protections with stop and frisk. It is also well documented that the NYPD had a culture of brutality and questionable defensive shoots. You served under a mayor (and a chief) who made the disarmament of law abiding citizens a priority, while you enjoyed exemption from that demand.

 

2. Your assertion that your "Brooklyn" came out, to me personally, is irrelevant in this case. That belligerent attitude simply seems to underpin the perception of a bully culture. There is a difference and a line between assertive, just, and professional behavior and being overbearing/abusive. The true professional can achieve compliance and motivation without the latter.

 

3. I question your choice of employment as a security guard/corrections officer. I have NO doubt whatsoever that it is a stressful, dangerous, and difficult duty and that discourse is not high on the priority scale (nor should it be), however I wonder...is that choice of employment to achieve a sense of empowerment?

 

While this response may seem confrontational on it's face, it is not meant as such. It is mearly an objective and I believe, fact based statement based on well known behavior patterns. I think General Mattis of the USMC summed it up best (and I'm paraphrasing here), be kind and polite to everyone you meet but have a plan to kill them. In the culture of those who carry weapons I believe this is good advice. 

 

[Clod Stomper]

After re-reading this thread, I'm a bit "meh" about the OP receiving his HCP.  

 

Just remember...  You're not in NY anymore.  You chose to move here.  

 

Assimilate...

[Dolomite_supafly]

I suspect we will be reading about him acting like LE and pulling his gun in someone. After which he will loose his HCP and get charged.