Handgun Permit Revocation

[Guest bobkoz120]

Hi My name is Bob, I live in Hamilton County TN I had my hand gun carry permit revoked in an unpresidented move by Sheriff Jim Hammond for "Being a risk of harm to the public". The details are while employed by HCSO as a Corrections Officer I was patting down a handcuffed inmate and the inmate posed a security threat by taking his hands off the wall 2 times as I found some  minor contraband on him prior to his court appearance. On the third time of taking his hands off the wall I attempted to take him down to the ground when another Officer grabbed my arms from behind  preventing my from defending myself, with that the inmate assaulted me by palm striking me on my arm. The Officer claims he was protecting me from assaulting the inmate. I did not strike or kick the inmate and had no intention to do so. During a later debriefing I was given an opportunity to Iaddress this officer. Being from New York City my Brooklyn  upbringing came out when I told him "You lucky I didn't F**k you up and that I can control myself and if you did this on the street I know officers in New York who would have Punched your mother F**k'in lights out" and I was sent back to work with him without incident on both occassions. The Captain claimed during my termination hearing  that he heard rumours that I threatened to kill that officer and The then Chief of Corrections (Now demoted to Capt.)  stated he heard I threaten to kill my supervisors and that they were in fear of me. Under policy the Capt. did not conduct an investigation of the rumour or notify Internal Affairs. I was not charged with any infraction.

 The jail area where this occurred was under video surveilance, request for tape under FOIL had gone unanswered and was erased 5 days after the request was recieved and I was told by the HR Mgr. that it took 5 days to get to her from records and taped over, the Captain claims no camera views that area and the subject officer confirms the area was under video surveilance.

I was suspended and terminated for being unfit for duty.

I retired from NYPD in 2000 after 21 yrs of service with 14 of those yrs in the rank of Sergeant. Previous, I was a NYC Corrections Officer and a Investigator(Intelligence) for the NY State Liquor Authority. My education is BS Police Science John Jay College of Criminal Justice and one semester short of completing my BA in History and Secondary Education College of Staten Island with all my Teacher licensing exams completed.

I appealed pro se at Sessions Court and pleaded that I did not threaten that officer and in the Officers testimony he stated that he wasn't sure what I said and thought I said that if he did that again I would take him behind the woodshed for a whippin. (It sure sounds like what someone from Brooklyn would say.) I argued that I did not threaten the Officer and he testified that he didn't remember what I said. Judge Bales said I must have said something to that affect and it was against the law to threaten to assault someone and upholding my revocation.  Director Gorman stated that the Sheriff's Office no longer objects to me having my handgun permit but the District Attorney does. I am appealing because I feel the Judge erred in his decision because I wasn't found guilty of a crime or offence, the District Attorney office is opposing my revocation not Homeland Security and only the Sheriff and  Homeland Security have standing according to TN law and I have a witness statement that concurs with my statement. The case has been postponed twice because the DA's Office now states somone in Homeland Security opposes my reinstatement but they don't know who. Meanwhile I am prohibited from carrying my weapon and economically deprived of working as a armed security guard.

 

[East_TN_Patriot]

If you are a retired LEO, then why do you need a carry permit? Per federal law, retired LEOs are eligible to carry their firearms anywhere in the nation as long as they qualify annually. Are you talking about your license to carry as an armed security officer?  

[TrickyNicky]

If you are a retired LEO, then why do you need a carry permit? Per federal law, retired LEOs are eligible to carry their firearms anywhere in the nation as long as they qualify annually. Are you talking about your license to carry as an armed security officer?

Not sure how relevant it is, but can LEOSA permits be revoked like an ordinary HCP?

[diablo982]

Honestly I'm not sure why you are airing your detailed, dirty laundry on a public message board. As was already stated, if you have your retired NYPD credentials, and I assume NYPD has some retiree qualification course for out-of-town retirees, you should be good to go. Otherwise, are you just venting or looking for advice?

[Joe357]

I don't get it, first post and this is it. What is the point or question?

[piercedan]

That sucks man, sorry you're going through such a hard time.

[TripleDigitRide]

I don't have much advice, but I can point you in the direction to someone you DON'T want to take advice from on such a matter.  :leaving: 

[mikegideon]

I had a boss once tell me, "It don't pay to piss people off". That advice has served me well.

[Luke E.]

Are you drumming up people to sign a petition? make calls on your behalf? I'm not at all saying that your side isn't the whole story but is there anywhere to get more info? 

 

P.S. an introduction goes a long ways here.

[c.a.willard]

Welcome to the forum. 

 

Don't take this the wrong way but why in the world did you represent yourself at the hearing.  I would think that with the experience you described in your post that you would know better than to ever represent yoursel

 

Besides the appeals process, i would say your only other option would be the LEOSA route.  Your agency may or may not provide means to go that route, most do.  Even if they do not their is a process for Tennessee residents that retired out of state to submit a packet to receive a retired ID for LEOSA purposes.  I am not sure of the complete details, but i know that guns and leather offers the Tennessee LEOSA firearms qualification course as one of their courses.  They are a sponser here and may be able to point you in the right direction if you choose to go that route.

[McGarrett]

Sounds like you need a good attorney. +1 on mikegideon's "It don't pay to piss people off". 

 

Don't take this the wrong way because I mean no offense, but a little piece of advice; you are in TN now not NY.

[Guest tdoccrossvilletn]

[quote name="bobkoz120" post="1057798" timestamp="1383445451"] Hi My name is Bob, I live in Hamilton County TN I had my hand gun carry permit revoked in an unpresidented move by Sheriff Jim Hammond for "Being a risk of harm to the public". The details are while employed by HCSO as a Corrections Officer I was patting down a handcuffed inmate and the inmate posed a security threat by taking his hands off the wall 2 times as I found some minor contraband on him prior to his court appearance. On the third time of taking his hands off the wall I attempted to take him down to the ground when another Officer grabbed my arms from behind preventing my from defending myself, with that the inmate assaulted me by palm striking me on my arm. The Officer claims he was protecting me from assaulting the inmate. I did not strike or kick the inmate and had no intention to do so. During a later debriefing I was given an opportunity to Iaddress this officer. Being from New York City my Brooklyn upbringing came out when I told him "You lucky I didn't F**k you up and that I can control myself and if you did this on the street I know officers in New York who would have Punched your mother F**k'in lights out" and I was sent back to work with him without incident on both occassions. The Captain claimed during my termination hearing that he heard rumours that I threatened to kill that officer and The then Chief of Corrections (Now demoted to Capt.) stated he heard I threaten to kill my supervisors and that they were in fear of me. Under policy the Capt. did not conduct an investigation of the rumour or notify Internal Affairs. I was not charged with any infraction. The jail area where this occurred was under video surveilance, request for tape under FOIL had gone unanswered and was erased 5 days after the request was recieved and I was told by the HR Mgr. that it took 5 days to get to her from records and taped over, the Captain claims no camera views that area and the subject officer confirms the area was under video surveilance. I was suspended and terminated for being unfit for duty. I retired from NYPD in 2000 after 21 yrs of service with 14 of those yrs in the rank of Sergeant. Previous, I was a NYC Corrections Officer and a Investigator(Intelligence) for the NY State Liquor Authority. My education is BS Police Science John Jay College of Criminal Justice and one semester short of completing my BA in History and Secondary Education College of Staten Island with all my Teacher licensing exams completed. I appealed pro se at Sessions Court and pleaded that I did not threaten that officer and in the Officers testimony he stated that he wasn't sure what I said and thought I said that if he did that again I would take him behind the woodshed for a whippin. (It sure sounds like what someone from Brooklyn would say.) I argued that I did not threaten the Officer and he testified that he didn't remember what I said. Judge Bales said I must have said something to that affect and it was against the law to threaten to assault someone and upholding my revocation. Director Gorman stated that the Sheriff's Office no longer objects to me having my handgun permit but the District Attorney does. I am appealing because I feel the Judge erred in his decision because I wasn't found guilty of a crime or offence, the District Attorney office is opposing my revocation not Homeland Security and only the Sheriff and Homeland Security have standing according to TN law and I have a witness statement that concurs with my statement. The case has been postponed twice because the DA's Office now states somone in Homeland Security opposes my reinstatement but they don't know who. Meanwhile I am prohibited from carrying my weapon and economically deprived of working as a armed security guard.[/quote] Um dude, I am a State of Tn correctional officer and we cannot "take an inmate down" unless they are actually coming at us. We cant just body slam them or pepper spray them or taze them just for non compliance. I read about your case. It seems you've had numerous issues according to the reports I've seen that were released to the public. We don't need people like you giving us officers a bad name we have enough of that crap already. Your actions in that matter violated policy and showed lack of poor judgment. Personally, I wouldn't want you backing me up. For non compliance such as what occurred with this inmate write them up for refusal direct order, I'd also write him for interference of an officer, and possession of contraband. This would net him five days in the hole for each charge. We can cuff and take inmates to the hole that are creating a disturbance but we can't just body slam them like you wanted to. We are allowed to use force equal to the threat. The fact dude was handcuffed means little to no force. You were and are in the wrong just admit it. Do you have an armed security license? You have to in TN you can't just be an armed guard with your hcp or police credentials. I was once licensed by the department of commerce and insurance as an armed guard but I let it lapse when I got hired in with tdoc. Also, if you're hcp is suspended more than likely your armed guard license will be as well. Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy. Edited November 3, 2013 by tdoccrossvilletn

[DaveTN]

Bob if you are looking for advice I will throw my two cents in for what it’s worth. You need an attorney and you need to keep your mouth shut and quit posting your case on forums.

As a former Police Officer I try not to judge people based on one side of the story; that’s just a given in real life.

But as an arm chair quarterback on the interweb I can only ask if you have a department policy on how you are allowed to handle an inmate that is not cooperating? From what you say it appears that another Corrections Officer felt you were overreacting and pulled you off; that’s not good for you. Your response about what you would have done in NY is telling.

You don’t have to be convicted of a crime to lose your HCP or Armed Security status. If you wanted to keep it you should have had an attorney before your hearing. Filing an appeal without one will likely have the same result. I would get the Attorney Yeager used; I think he had his permit reinstated after making death threats in a YouTube video.

This story from last year says Hamilton County leads the state in arrest rates for jailers and none of them were fired; how did you get so lucky?
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2012/feb/15/hamilton-county-leads-state-in-jailer-arrest/ Edited November 3, 2013 by DaveTN

[Luke E.]

Um dude,I am a State of Tn correctional officer and we cannot "take an inmate down" unless they are actually coming at us. We cant just body slam them or pepper spray them or taze them just for non compliance. I read about your case. It seems you've had numerous issues according to the reports I've seen that were released to the public. We don't need people like you giving us officers a bad name we have enough of that crap already. Your actions in that matter violated policy and showed lack of poor judgment. Personally, I wouldn't want you backing me up. For non compliance such as what occurred with this inmate write them up for refusal direct order, I'd also write him for interference of an officer, and possession of contraband. This would net him five days in the hole for each charge. We can cuff and take inmates to the hole that are creating a disturbance but we can't just body slam them like you wanted to. We are allowed to use force equal to the threat. The fact dude was handcuffed means little to no force. You were and are in the wrong just admit it. Do you have an armed security license? You have to in TN you can't just be an armed guard with your hcp or police credentials. I was once licensed by the department of commerce and insurance as an armed guard but I let it lapse when I got hired in with tdoc. Also, if you're hcp is suspended more than likely your armed guard license will be as well. Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.

I sort of figured a post like this would pop up. And I'd say what you read about the issue is more accurate than the op.

[JayC]

Get an attorney, get an attorney, get an attorney.  Those are your 3 options...  I'd echo DaveTN's recommendation to find the attorney that worked for Yeager and at least ask for a reference for an attorney in your county.

 

Good luck, this subsection of TN law is bad and needs to be repealed as soon as possible, if what you say is true, it appears as if your permit was revoked because of an employment dispute with a politically connected employer (the local Sheriff)...  If proven true in a court of law, that could provide the ammo needed to get this stupid public harm clause removed from state law, or at least require a open hearing before a judge rules you a risk to public safety.

[Dustbuster]

Bob if you are looking for advice I will throw my two cents in for what it’s worth. You need an attorney and you need to keep your mouth shut and quit posting your case on forums.

As a former Police Officer I try not to judge people based on one side of the story; that’s just a given in real life.

But as an arm chair quarterback on the interweb I can only ask if you have a department policy on how you are allowed to handle an inmate that is not cooperating? From what you say it appears that another Corrections Officer felt you were overreacting and pulled you off; that’s not good for you. Your response about what you would have done in NY is telling.

You don’t have to be convicted of a crime to lose your HCP or Armed Security status. If you wanted to keep it you should have had an attorney before your hearing. Filing an appeal without one will likely have the same result. I would get the Attorney Yeager used; I think he had his permit reinstated after making death threats in a YouTube video.

This story from last year says Hamilton County leads the state in arrest rates for jailers and none of them were fired; how did you get so lucky?
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2012/feb/15/hamilton-county-leads-state-in-jailer-arrest/

Ditto on the Yeager lawyer, add multi excessive force, resisting arrest, and posting crap on forums equals the type of open source stuff that will come back to haunt you. Most DA entities are anti gun to start with. Even scarier is any LEO that utters a vengeful anything to or amongst peers
U should know this. Someone is pissed off ? Get a lawyer get a copy of your case from dps and count to ten before going Ballistic on someone w threats. The south is the land of metaphors and colorful colloquialisms but used improperly can cause a lot of grief ....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 of course it ate my spelling.

[TMF]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the original post has already made its way into the hands of this SO considering the number of LEOs on this board and the specific information included in the post. This is not conducive to furthering the OPs cause. This will work against you. Get a lawyer and ask nicely to have this thread deleted, along with any other threads on other forums.

[mikegideon]

Get an attorney, get an attorney, get an attorney.  Those are your 3 options...  I'd echo DaveTN's recommendation to find the attorney that worked for Yeager and at least ask for a reference for an attorney in your county.

 

Good luck, this subsection of TN law is bad and needs to be repealed as soon as possible, if what you say is true, it appears as if your permit was revoked because of an employment dispute with a politically connected employer (the local Sheriff)...  If proven true in a court of law, that could provide the ammo needed to get this stupid public harm clause removed from state law, or at least require a open hearing before a judge rules you a risk to public safety.

 

The law won't get repealed... ever. Now, he can get an attorney, battle it out, and maybe prevail. If he does, they're just gonna say oops, and reinstate him. Still could result in a lot of out-of-pocket.

 

James said a stupid thing on the Internet (pretty sure he freely admits that now). He knew it was stupid shortly after he posted it, and pulled the video. Still, there was no physical altercation. Even without that, I'm sure his wallet got a lot lighter, or he burned through some owed favors.

 

Anyway, it's hard to beat these guys at their own game. Just ask Lenny.

[Spiffy]

This ain't the great liberal city of New York. Looks like you found out the hard way.

[Guest bobkoz120]

New York City does not recognize out of town permits, you still need a permit for a handgun license not available to out of town residents, HR218 does not necessary apply in certain states, yes I'm venting, To the TN CO "when your searching a inmate and he takes his hands off the wall and looks at you as a target do you just stand there or at what nano second before impact do you react ?". I said Iwas going to take him down and my intent was to furtherestrain him not body slam him. Yes, I now employed a lawyer,  I worked in a hostile environment due to adminitrative competence and tried to perform my duties with impossible perfection and I maintain my personal integrity. I want to vent to an audience for validation and to fight injustice you often need supporters to carry you through.     

[DaveTN]

I now employed a lawyer

If you want to see him go nuts; send him a link to this thread.

[mikegideon]

If you want to see him go nuts; send him a link to this thread.

 

It don't pay to piss lawyers off either :)

[TrickyNicky]

Wow. New York, cops, body slams, this is one thread that doesn't disappoint at every turn. :rolleyes:

Seriously I would take TMF's advice and ask one of the mods to delete this before it turns into a 12 page mess. From the sound of it, it would be a good step in the right direction for your case. I'd also let your attorney know you are attempting to rouse supporters to help carry you through your battle with tyrant and oppression. :rolleyes:

It will make their job a bit easier to not get blindsided by your oppressors if/when they decide to bring this information in front of a judge.

[Guest tdoccrossvilletn]

New York City does not recognize out of town permits, you still need a permit for a handgun license not available to out of town residents, HR218 does not necessary apply in certain states, yes I'm venting, To the TN CO "when your searching a inmate and he takes his hands off the wall and looks at you as a target do you just stand there or at what nano second before impact do you react ?". I said Iwas going to take him down and my intent was to furtherestrain him not body slam him. Yes, I now employed a lawyer, I worked in a hostile environment due to adminitrative competence and tried to perform my duties with impossible perfection and I maintain my personal integrity. I want to vent to an audience for validation and to fight injustice you often need supporters to carry you through.

The point being you said the inmate was restrained in cuffs. It's not like you would have been fighting for your life. You can't justify your use of excessive force so don't even try.

Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.

[TripleDigitRide]

The point being you said the inmate was restrained in cuffs. It's not like you would have been fighting for your life. You can't justify your use of excessive force so don't even try.

Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.

While I'm not defending the OP, if a person is cuffed in the front, they can be extremely dangerous. Don't believe me? Allow someone in cuffs to get behind you and and get his cuffed hands around your throat.

Edited November 3, 2013 by TripleDigitRide