Third parties as spoilers & the VA governor's race

[Chucktshoes]

6.8, while there may be some evidence he was placed to spoil, there is equal evidence he wasn't as that specific bundler has a history of supporting libertarian candidates as well in the past. I think it may have been mentioned on here previously, but there are left libertarians who prioritize social issues above fiscal ones. In fact they were there first with regards to the Libertarian Party.

The main point I would find difference with your response to Erik is that it is still operating from a left/right Republican/Democrat paradigm and it assumes votes not cast for a third party would have automatically belonged to one of the major parties. That is still an incorrect frame of reference.

[Chucktshoes]

Bout 43%, but same unknown, really .. did Perot really cost Bush Sr. the election in 92?

Nixon won by same 43% in '68, but pretty certain all the folks who voted for Wallace wouldn't have gone with Humphrey. This is perhaps the only clear cut third party candidate in my lifetime you could postulate which candidate he cost votes, and clearly didn't change outcome.

Bush Jr. got 47% in 2000, Gore got more but lost. Did Nader cost Gore the election? Intense analysis of electoral vote possibility suggests not.

etc.

- OS

Yep. Perot didn't cause Bush to lose the election, Bush's term as president cost him the election.

[tnguy]

6.8, while there may be some evidence he was placed to spoil, there is equal evidence he wasn't as that specific bundler has a history of supporting libertarian candidates as well in the past.

 

 

I'd just like to point out that this could just establish a history of playing such games...
 

[Chucktshoes]

I'd just like to point out that this could just establish a history of playing such games...

It could also mean he is a left libertarian, we don't know either way but that won't stop republicans from erroneously believing the libertarian vote belongs to them if only we would just quit wasting our time and votes. :D

[Oh Shoot]

It could also mean he is a left libertarian, we don't know either way but that won't stop republicans from erroneously believing the libertarian vote belongs to them if only we would just quit wasting our time and votes. :D

 

Amen. Even Tea Party level conservatism is not really libertarianism, though it shares some principles,  but certainly mainstream Republicans are no closer to it than Dems.

 

The Republican Party official platform should just be junked. At least the Dems as a whole pretty much follow through on what theirs states, the majority GOP pays no attention to their stated principles at all in actual practice.

 

- OS

Edited November 7, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[kieefer]

“Despite being outspent by an unprecedented $15 million, this race came down to the wire because of Obamacare,”

 

Pretty impressive showing for Cuccinelli and yeah, sure there is no way of knowing which way Sarvis's votes would have went IF he wasn't in it.

 

Exit polls show a majority of voters — 53 percent — opposed the law. Among them, 81 percent voted for Cuccinelli and 8 percent voted for Libertarian candidate Robert Sarvis. McAuliffe won overwhelmingly among the 46 percent who support the health care overhaul.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/11/terry-mcauliffe-virginia-governor-2013-elections-99441.html#ixzz2juvoFXzT

 

Defeating obamacare is what this particular election was about, and we almost won it despite the millions from the left for McAuliffe AND no Republican funds to HELP one of their own to fight his opposition. Add to that the story of Sarvis being a democratic plant and I think conservatives did a hell of a job. 

[Guest 6.8 AR]

The only point I was trying to make is that it is more dirty politics. In the case of Nixon, I never said that was right, either. I

only used Clinton as an example. either way it works out for a party is wrong and should not be allowed. That takes an informed

voter, which is not common, nowadays.

 

As far as I'm concerned, a winner should have a 50%+1 majority to become an officeholder. That would probably stop some

of this stuff. Of course, it is politics, and those people tend to find one more rule to bend when they can.

 

BTW, Tea Party voters never claimed to be Libertarians, even though many share those views. They are fed up voters who

want their country back, just like you and I. But I am a Tea Partier. I want some drastic change. It would be easy for me to call

myself a Libertarian and if Libertarians were more organized, I would gladly make that pronouncement. I just don't see the point

in putting up a candidate in few places with little organization that can't, at this time compete with the other two. If someone

would show me that organization and work, other than try to intellectualize amongst the few, they might get their message out

and find that more people are Libertarian bent and would become a successful political machine that could very possibly take

this country back on the correct course, if that is still possible.

[Chucktshoes]

The only point I was trying to make is that it is more dirty politics. In the case of Nixon, I never said that was right, either. I
only used Clinton as an example. either way it works out for a party is wrong and should not be allowed. That takes an informed
voter, which is not common, nowadays.

As far as I'm concerned, a winner should have a 50%+1 majority to become an officeholder. That would probably stop some
of this stuff. Of course, it is politics, and those people tend to find one more rule to bend when they can.

BTW, Tea Party voters never claimed to be Libertarians, even though many share those views. They are fed up voters who
want their country back, just like you and I. But I am a Tea Partier. I want some drastic change. It would be easy for me to call
myself a Libertarian and if Libertarians were more organized, I would gladly make that pronouncement. I just don't see the point
in putting up a candidate in few places with little organization that can't, at this time compete with the other two. If someone
would show me that organization and work, other than try to intellectualize amongst the few, they might get their message out
and find that more people are Libertarian bent and would become a successful political machine that could very possibly take
this country back on the correct course, if that is still possible.

Fair point. All I would add is that the efforts put into denying ballot access to minor parties by the majors is just as dirty and wrong. Lawsuits should not have to be filed for candidates to have their name placed on the ballot or to have their party affiliation properly listed on the ballot. Ballot access is still a large problem for the LP, Greens and other minor parties. Ever since Ross Perot, both the Republicans and Democrats have expended a lot of time and effort to deny ballot access. Edited November 7, 2013 by Chucktshoes

[Guest 6.8 AR]

They sure have, and it is dead wrong. I will easily blame the two majors for all the shenanigans put on the other parties.

 

The Tea Party has had measurable successes fighting the so-called establishment in the Republican Party. Ted Cruz and

Rand Paul is all you have to say for that. The Tea Party group in the House has been putting a lot of pressure on Boehner,

also.

 

I see successes and when those successes are used to build coalitions of like-minded people to fight against the corruption

of the entire government, I would like to see some coalition building from Libertarians and Tea Party members. I don't buy into

the idea that the two groups are that far apart that they can't work together to disrupt the Republican Party establishment and

form a new solid party. All of that just came from me. I haven't heard anyone else talking that way, but when I go to the Tea

Party meetings, it sounds more Libertarian than you might think. It would be worth going to one to find out. That crap or

propaganda spread by the media saying the two groups are at extreme ends from each other is just that: crap.

[Oh Shoot]

....Cuccinelli let himself down.

 

The people of the state did not run Cuch, there's no primary there. The nominating convention, with heavy Tea Party influence,  put up their big three, all of whom were outspoken anti gay and anti abortion.  Cuch lost, Jackson for Lt. Gov was destroyed (black conservative preacher, and even with high black voter turnout), Obershein for AG still being counted, too close to call.

 

Women and singles elected McAuliffe. Exit polling showing Cuch's deficit was 9%  from women overall, 43% of unmarried women, and 25% of unmarried men, and singles were 1/3 of all voters.

 

GOP and FOX claiming narrow loss was a "victory of Obamacare protest" or similar. What horse pucky. The guy who wants to expand ACA even more won. If there's a spin, that's it.

 

Those folks weren't wild about McAuliffe, they just couldn't stomach Cuch. The GOP shutdown was also perceived as more of a detriment than ACA debacle. IMO, along with Christie's big win, clearly signals a loss for uber conservatism as long as that includes staying 20th century on social issues.

 

- OS

Edited November 7, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[leroy]

Folks; i wouldnt read too much into this Virginia thing.... Virginia isnt really representative of the whole country... Too many concentrations of bureaucrats and african americans in several places (.... demographics; white-65%, black-19%, hispanic-8%....)... Virginia simply aint the norm... The state house lower chamber is about 75/25 republican/democrat, and the upper chamber is 50/50 republican/democrat...  

 

Sit aside what the "republican machine" did or didnt do a minute and think about this for a while:.... The greatest democrats of 'em (...the clintons...) politiced for McAuliffe; along with obama.... The democrats outspent the republicans 3 to one in general help and about 9 to one with media advertizing; yet McAuliffe won by a hair... If i wuz the democrats i would be real afraid of what that really means....  The fact is that virginia is, at best, a purple state turnin blue... There are plenty of washington bureaucrats in northern virginia; and the virginia coast looks a lot more like the interior of south carolina than the old dominion...

 

That bein said, im no more happier about these half-wit b*****ds on both sides of the political spectrum than anyone else... The republican establishment is makin a big mistake by declaring war on the populist movement... They will ultimately morph into the democrat party (...i think...) and a new, conservative party will take their place... I say, it cant happen too soon... Let the virginians have a son of satan like McAuliffe, they will get tired of him pretty quick....

 

The fact is that neither political party is doin very well... I say a "pox on both houses"; they are the same dammed sorry trash simply usin different techniques to do the same thing.... It will be a great day when they are both gone...

 

libertarian leroy the isolationist

[Guest 6.8 AR]

The people of the state did not run Cuch, there's no primary there. The nominating convention, with heavy Tea Party influence,  put up their big three, all of whom were outspoken anti gay and anti abortion.  Cuch lost, Jackson for Lt. Gov was destroyed (black conservative preacher, and even with high black voter turnout), Obershein for AG still being counted, too close to call.

 

Women and singles elected McAuliffe. Exit polling showing Cuch's deficit was 9%  from women overall, 43% of unmarried women, and 25% of unmarried men, and singles were 1/3 of all voters.

 

GOP and FOX claiming narrow loss was a "victory of Obamacare protest" or similar. What horse pucky. The guy who wants to expand ACA even more won. If there's a spin, that's it.

 

Those folks weren't wild about McAuliffe, they just couldn't stomach Cuch. The GOP shutdown was also perceived as more of a detriment than ACA debacle. IMO, along with Christie's big win, clearly signals a loss for uber conservatism as long as that includes staying 20th century on social issues.

 

- OS

Mac, if the good people of Virginia couldn't stand Cuccinelli so much, why did he do so well considering spending was a third

of his opponents? The last week of the campaign he was essentially blacked out on TV because of a lack of funds, at least

that's what I read. I didn't see any of the MSM's TV reporting on the race. Just what I saw on the net. In his case, and assuming

no spoiler effect, I think he could have won it with major GOP backing, something he didn't have. I didn't follow the other two

races you mentioned. Hard work, money and making few mistakes make a successful election. He did make a mistake or two

and his money was very lacking.

[Guest TankerHC]

Folks; i wouldnt read too much into this Virginia thing.... Virginia isnt really representative of the whole country... Too many concentrations of bureaucrats and african americans in several places (.... demographics; white-65%, black-19%, hispanic-8%....)... Virginia simply aint the norm... The state house lower chamber is about 75/25 republican/democrat, and the upper chamber is 50/50 republican/democrat...  

 

Sit aside what the "republican machine" did or didnt do a minute and think about this for a while:.... The greatest democrats of 'em (...the clintons...) politiced for McAuliffe; along with obama....

 

 

I would read everything into it for exactly what it is.  There is now for the first time in 8 generations of Governors a Democrat in Virginia. This was no fluke either, the pollsters and exit polling as well as some pretty knowledgable people I know who live there know, the so called Libertarian sunk Cucinelli. The Libertarian Party, THE REAL ONE, has no chance now of ever winning any election of consequence in Virginia. The damage is complete there for the Libertarians.  I find it hard to believe that Americans are so focused on one or two things or people that they have tunnel vision.

 

Virginia was not a State election, it was a State election with National implications and is very much "The norm" now. Since no one seems to get it, Ill explain what I'm talking about and what no one else except certain people I know seem to get.

 

First off the election left the State level long ago, the reason that instead of just one or two national Reps showing up to support McCaullife you had Obama, Hillary and Bill Clinton all three down there campaigning. At one point all three at the same time. The goal was not the Legislature, would it have been worse if they had lost the legislature? Yes, but that was almost a foregone conclusion that the Republicans would keep the Legislature. It doesn't matter. And apparently a lot of voters haven't read the Progressive manual, watch and see how long it takes before the Obama playbook comes through in McCaulliffe's actions. "because of these Republicans and Tea Party people I cant get anything done", "they are holding up progress and the State of Virginia is suffering". Its coming, people know it and it wont be long before they control the Legislature as well, because just like the House and Senate, they will begin to fold when their constituents begin complaining that nothing is getting done. This is Political war, and the Progressives are a patient enemy. And too many people "do not have the time" to pull their head out of the sand.

 

Secondly, DeBlasio wins in New York City by a 50% margin. The people of NYC early on and in the middle of the campaign all but disregarded DeBlasio, but then DeBlasio's team changed their tactics by painting Bloomberg as a centrist! Are you fricken kidding? DeBlasio won the gun vote? He won the precincts that are the wealthiest in the wealthiest city in the World by PROMISING WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION. And once elected, his very first speech by those outside NYC who bothered to watch were straight from the Obama and Progressive playbook. Inequality can only be fixed by taking from those who have and giving to those who have not. If this were bum fk nowhere, it wouldn't matter, but its the richest city on earth, and it matters.

 

Christie wins by a landslide. No surprise there. But what was surprising is how he has already been picked as the Republican nominee without a shot being fired on the podium of a National debate. A year ago MSNBC, CNN, and all the rest were putting up polls and lists of the top Republican presidential contenders for 2016. This is how it was done for both McCain and Romney. Here's the funny thing, people, and by people, I mean future Conservative Presidential prospects who were calling Christie a RINO started saying 5 minutes after his election that he wasn't a RINO, then before 24 hours had lapsed were clearly positioning themselves for a spot on the VP short list. Christie has zero chance of winning against Clinton, unlike either Cruz or West who have one or possibly two things against them, Christie has an entire host of things that will come out. The Left WANT CHRISTIE as the nominee. So for the THIRD FRICKEN TIME they are picking the opposition candidate. Ill go out on a limb here, if Im wrong Ill be the firs to admit it. Christie is already the nominee and his VP will either be Cruz or West. Thats not even a prediction, thats what I believe and I hope I am wrong and its visa versa on the other two.

 

But Ill go with Leroy, dont put much stock into any of it. Just look up what I am saying. You will have to go deep but you will find it. but again, dont put anything into it. Progressives winning on a position of redistribution of wealth and the position that there should be no restrictions on abortion, even for viable babies, is only an accident and doesnt matter to anyone else.

 

Just ignore it, it doesnt matter. There's a Sarvis coming to a State near you. Just ignore the man behind the curtain.

 

BTW, ENDA will be coming to the Senate floor. It will not get anywhere because it doesnt need to, its to change the peoples focus, becase it addresses a problem that was addressed and has been the law for over 50 years.

Edited November 7, 2013 by TankerHC

[Guest 6.8 AR]

McCain even said he is interested in running for POTUS again. The big money in the GOP will probably make a pact

with one of them, but if they do, all it will do is give us another Democrat. As far as Virginia having national implications,

all state races end up having that, especially when the media pushes it, like all of those parts in their agenda, expediency.

With Obama growing less attractive each day, though, the Virginia race may not have much of an impact like you think.

Remember, Virginia went to Obama in 2012. They had to spend a lot of money to get McAuliffe elected.

 

I didn't follow that NYC mayor race at all. I expected it would go blue, to begin with, and anyone considering Bloomberg

as a moderate is nuts. You'd have to be on animal tranquilizers to think that.

[Guest TankerHC]

McCain even said he is interested in running for POTUS again. The big money in the GOP will probably make a pact

with one of them, but if they do, all it will do is give us another Democrat. As far as Virginia having national implications,

all state races end up having that, especially when the media pushes it, like all of those parts in their agenda, expediency.

With Obama growing less attractive each day, though, the Virginia race may not have much of an impact like you think.

Remember, Virginia went to Obama in 2012. They had to spend a lot of money to get McAuliffe elected.

 

I didn't follow that NYC mayor race at all. I expected it would go blue, to begin with, and anyone considering Bloomberg

as a moderate is nuts. You'd have to be on animal tranquilizers to think that.

 

Obama is unpopular for now. They will soon make that come to an end. People have short memories. Not all States races have National implications, I can name 20 right now where any race doesnt mean a rats ass. But in a State like Virginia, a State like NJ where the Governor is looking to be the next President and a City like NY, which is a poster child for the progressives. It does matter.

Edited November 7, 2013 by TankerHC

[leroy]

Tanker:  i'm no more happy about the republicans and the democrats than you are...  We know what the democrats are... We are beginning to know what the republicans are... There are two factions of them... the "bluenose" insider harvard educated captain of industry type moderates who care nothing for what you and i believe, and are continually doin what your no count inlaw or sorry brother or sister does... They hit ya up for some dough (...for the fiftieth time...) and say they "....are sorry and wont do it again".... Its a dammed lie and most all real republicans know it... The insider wing of the republican party cares nothing for principles nor do they care for this country...

 

They care for two things; the first, that they have a piece of the pie no matter who sits on top... the second is that everything is a deal... When everything is a deal you have no core values...

 

I well remember when my sainted mom (...who worked in ever election in our neighborhood precinct, and who wuz a rabid "New Deal Democrat"...) whould say that the dammed republicans cared for no one but themselves... It turns out, in this case, she wuz exactly right... 

 

The "insider"republicans are waging a war against this country just like the democrats are... They care nothing for the future of this country and are content to have their pockets lined by special interest just like the democrats do... They just have a different set of pets... They have evidently made a conscious decision to drive off what i would term "conservative, small government" republicans like most of us (...and most republicans, period...) are... Its a classic case of a small minority manipulating a large organization against the will of the majority...

 

On a personal basis, i think they are done... I think they have murdered the republican party by driving off the "conservative, small government republican" contingent.... The republican party "bluenose" faction will ultimately have to morph into a faction of the democrat party; because they believe nothin you and i believe about anything... They, in fact, are selling you, me, your kids, my kids, and the country out and lining their pockets...  That's why i think you are seeing this red state/blue state thing commin up...People are gettin sick of both parties at the national level and they are voting at the state level to see that the federal powers are curbed... 

 

The dammed democrats and the "inside the beltway" bluenose republicans all think it's 1933 and everyone is ignorant.... That's simply not the case... There is a class war goin on and most people understand that... Its a battle between the "gimmee's" and those who want to work and keep their money and their freedoms...  As things stand now, both parties have gravitated toward the "gimmee's"... 

 

Ive got a 24 year old in college who hates both parties because of exactly what we are discussing right now...  He is not unique in his political views and he and others like him will ultimately change the political landscape... All this change make take a few election cycles; but i think it's comming...

 

What you are seeing right now is a titanic fight between the paternalistic "old guard" of both political parties who know best what is right and good for us "delightful rustics"; and a new kind of citizen that is sick and tired of havin their pockets picked by these sons and daughters of satan and are looking for an alternative... That alternative is a populist movement represented, in large part, by the Tea Party; so ya shouldnt be surprized that that particular movement would either be used as a spoiler by the established party operatives on both sides; and/or blasphemed by both the established political parties... The truth is that they are afraid, and they well should be....

 

Ill close by sayin this; this country was founded largely by individualists who would not bow down to a far away king nor a pope... They risked life and limb to come to this country to start a new life... They whupped the superpower of their day to found this country...  I'll grant that we've come a long way down from that rugged individualist beginning; but i still think there is a large portion of people in this country who aint interested in bowin down to the god of government as both the dammed democrats and blue nose republicans would have us do... And that portion of people is beginning to be heard in the populist movements like the Tea Party... I say, let the Virginians have their dammed McAluffee and the "Mongoloid Sons of Marx" have their DeBasio and "chubs" Christie... They evidently like that kind of stuff; but dont expect to hoist it on the whole country... That simply aint gonna happen....

 

As the old scotsman would say:..."Ta heel with all of em"... Elect politicians who articulate and demonstrate the values you believe in; and throw out those who dont... That is what's happened in Tennessee (...with the exception of the senatorial level, i think, at least...)... In the long run, the "gimmies" cant win... The truth is commin out; and obamacare has passed out a large dose of it to lots of people in otherwise blue states... I say, let 'em keep talkin and doin; they are busy diggin their political graves...

 

Heres hopin...

 

libertarian leroy the isolationist and former republican cheerleader, now reformed...

Edited November 7, 2013 by leroy

[Guest TankerHC]

Tanker: i'm no more happy about the republicans and the democrats than you are... We know what the democrats are... We are beginning to know what the republicans are... There are two factions of them... the "bluenose" insider harvard educated captain of industry type moderates who care nothing for what you and i believe, and are continually doin what your no count inlaw or sorry brother or sister does... They hit ya up for some dough (...for the fiftieth time...) and say they "....are sorry and wont do it again".... Its a dammed lie and most all real republicans know it... The insider wing of the republican party cares nothing for principles nor do they care for this country...

They care for two things; the first, that they have a piece of the pie no matter who sits on top... the second is that everything is a deal... When everything is a deal you have no core values...

I well remember when my sainted mom (...who worked in ever election in our neighborhood precinct, and who wuz a rabid "New Deal Democrat"...) whould say that the dammed republicans cared for no one but themselves... It turns out, in this case, she wuz exactly right...

The "insider"republicans are waging a war against this country just like the democrats are... They care nothing for the future of this country and are content to have their pockets lined by special interest just like the democrats do... They just have a different set of pets... They have evidently made a conscious decision to drive off what i would term "conservative, small government" republicans like most of us (...and most republicans, period...) are... Its a classic case of a small minority manipulating a large organization against the will of the majority...

On a personal basis, i think they are done... I think they have murdered the republican party by driving off the "conservative, small government republican" contingent.... The republican party "bluenose" faction will ultimately have to morph into a faction of the democrat party; because they believe nothin you and i believe about anything... They, in fact, are selling you, me, your kids, my kids, and the country out and lining their pockets... That's why i think you are seeing this red state/blue state thing commin up...People are gettin sick of both parties at the national level and they are voting at the state level to see that the federal powers are curbed...

The dammed democrats and the "inside the beltway" bluenose republicans all think it's 1933 and everyone is ignorant.... That's simply not the case... There is a class war goin on and most people understand that... Its a battle between the "gimmee's" and those who want to work and keep their money and their freedoms... As things stand now, both parties have gravitated toward the "gimmee's"...

Ive got a 24 year old in college who hates both parties because of exactly what we are discussing right now... He is not unique in his political views and he and others like him will ultimately change the political landscape... All this change make take a few election cycles; but i think it's comming...

What you are seeing right now is a titanic fight between the paternalistic "old guard" of both political parties who know best what is right and good for us "delightful rustics"; and a new kind of citizen that is sick and tired of havin their pockets picked by these sons and daughters of satan and are looking for an alternative... That alternative is a populist movement represented, in large part, by the Tea Party; so ya shouldnt be surprized that that particular movement would either be used as a spoiler by the established party operatives on both sides; and/or blasphemed by both the established political parties... The truth is that they are afraid, and they well should be....

Ill close by sayin this; this country was founded largely by individualists who would not bow down to a far away king nor a pope... They risked life and limb to come to this country to start a new life... They whupped the superpower of their day to found this country... I'll grant that we've come a long way down from that rugged individualist beginning; but i still think there is a large portion of people in this country who aint interested in bowin down to the god of government as both the dammed democrats and blue nose republicans would have us do... And that portion of people is beginning to be heard in the populist movements like the Tea Party... I say, let the Virginians have their dammed McAluffee and the "Mongoloid Sons of Marx" have their DeBasio and "chubs" Christie... They evidently like that kind of stuff; but dont expect to hoist it on the whole country... That simply aint gonna happen....

As the old scotsman would say:..."Ta heel with all of em"... Elect politicians who articulate and demonstrate the values you believe in; and throw out those who dont... That is what's happened in Tennessee (...with the exception of the senatorial level, i think, at least...)... In the long run, the "gimmies" cant win... The truth is commin out; and obamacare has passed out a large dose of it to lots of people in otherwise blue states... I say, let 'em keep talkin and doin; they are busy diggin their political graves...

Heres hopin...

libertarian leroy the isolationist and former republican cheerleader, now reformed...

You and I have done this at least 3 times. Arguing against each other in favor or against the same thing. We have got to stop meeting like this. :D

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2

[Guest 6.8 AR]

It's all about moochers and looters, nowadays. The rule of law has been destroyed by the criminals. The moochers and

looters won several of the last elections. It's a trend that is difficult to break.

[leroy]

You and I have done this at least 3 times. Arguing against each other in favor or against the same thing. We have got to stop meeting like this. :D

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2

I despise 'em just like you do, man!!!!

 

Keep up the good work!

leroy