White males have unfair advantages

[tnguy]

Republicans are red,
Democrats are blue
Neither one
Gives a ####
About you!

 

This needs to be a cartoon.

 

Close enough

 

Edited November 1, 2013 by tnguy

[Mark@Sea]

 This forum is filled daily with ignorant opinions about minorities from people who have little to no interaction with minorities. Their opinions are based on stories from family members, stereotypes and the advertising dollar driven news media.
 

 

 

BS.  Seriously, that one is a real stinker.  SHOW me.  Seriously.  Back up your 'opinion' that there are so many racists on TGO.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Mark@Sea

[MacGyver]

Guilty.  You know what... It's one on a whole long list of unfair advantages I claim.

 

I don't want to discount this problem. Being a white, evangelical male, I don't know that I have standing, so to speak.

 

That said, I will make one point that I find so interesting - and this applies to your average, upper middle class entitled white kid, too.  We're at an inflection point in history.  The internet has changed things radically, and the boat is pulling away without us - all of us.  So many barriers are being knocked down right now, and we're so focused on who's getting what from the government's teat that we're failing to see the world shifting around us. 

 

Education is changing.  We're almost to the point where there are some truly viable alternative paths.  I'm a postgraduate educated Engineer - recognized as an expert in my field.  In the last year, I've taken four Stanford and MIT engineering courses outside of my discipline.  These are the MOOC's (Massive Open Online Courses) that you hear people talking about.  Each one of them has been completely free discounting my time spent.  I've learned so much.

 

And yet, do you know who's taking advantage of this?  One of my colleagues recently taught one of these courses - and a popular one at that.  We talked about enrollment, and about 1500 people finished the coursework for the class.  Do you know how many of those resided in the US?  About 30.

 

There is a hungry world surrounding us that recognizes that the internet gives them access to some of the unfair advantage that America has claimed historically.  We're missing it, because we're too busy pointing fingers and complaining that someone got a bigger piece of the pie than we did.  We're about to have our collective asses handed to us.  And it shouldn't come as a surprise, but it will.

 

I know that I'm privileged.  I'm appalled at our history, but I can't change or affect that.  What I can change and affect is my behavior.  As I tell my kids, you can't affect the fact that the world is unfair and it sucks sometimes.  You can affect how you respond.  I hope that I can use my privilege to help people who haven't had the same experience I've had. 

[tnguy]

Some of us have a lot of fair advantages too. I won't go into details but my dad pretty much pulled himself up by his boot-straps and made sure he made the best life he could for me and my brother. He is a man I continually measure myself against. Should the good work he put in, the long hours, the night school, the daily grind to be a provider be negated? (Well, judging by what is happening to my efforts, apparently so).

 

Absentee fathers are not even the complete issue. My dad's dad was one of those. It may even have been what made my dad the man he was. I suspect the main difference was the he wasn't raised in a culture of government dependence. That's the most corrosive element on *any* culture.

[Links2k]

BS.  Seriously, that one is a real stinker.  SHOW me.  Seriously.  Back up your 'opinion' that there are so many racists on TGO.

First, show me where I called anyone a racist in this thread. Secondly, if you don't think that there are ignorant statements made on TGO everyday based upon stereotypes and hearsay, then there is nothing to discuss and you simply want to aurgue to pass time. I choose not to participate.

[Jonnin]

To me, it sounds like the military is years behind reality.   Time was, there was some truth to those statements.  Say, about 1955.   And maybe even into the early 80s. 

 

By the 80s, though, the truth in the white male stuff was just not cutting it anymore.   Overt Homosexuals and "overt" religion could get you a NEGATIVE social stigma, yes --- and it still does in a lot of places.  

 

Today, if you are not dressed oddly for your religion, have had a shower in the past week, are not lisping/crossdressing/flaming, can speak plainly in something resembling english, then you can probably fit in and do well at most places.  Sure, some places are run by bigots, but on the average, there is no issue anymore. 

 

The people that claim constant harassment over their race generally can't speak plainly or have an off-putting behavioral issue or have some sort of unprofessional look that is causing the problem.  And white folks can do that too --- give me a morbidly obese biker with tattoos of naked women, greasy unwashed hair, unshaven, unable to talk for 5 min straight without swearing, and all the stereotypes.   Now give me a black lesbian woman in a professional business outfit, speaking clearly, and so on?  Which one will you hire for say a mehish position but one that involves at least some interaction with clients?   Then reverse it, the white guy in a suit and the black gangster?  Which one you gonna hire?  Its not about race.

 

Now I personally did have a lot of unfair advantages.  My dad chose to forgo a lot of fun stuff to pay for private high school.  I was blessed with a pretty sound mind.  But there were plenty of nonwhites in my class at school --- a guy from japan was the valedictorian,  and I recall students from india and any number of nonwhite americans.  Most were white, yes.  I remember going to ga tech where I would say a very high % of the students were not only not white, but were foreign (india and asian being the bulk), and most of the professors as well (I left because half the professors could not speak well enough to be understood, actually).   I am sure that my race certainly has not hurt, but my entire life, anything and everything I have done, there has always been a minority doing the same things.  And for every door that was opened, another was shut  -- "we were looking for women/minorities for this position, sorry". 

Edited November 1, 2013 by Jonnin

[Links2k]

Guilty.  You know what... It's one on a whole long list of unfair advantages I claim.
 
I don't want to discount this problem. Being a white, evangelical male, I don't know that I have standing, so to speak.
 
That said, I will make one point that I find so interesting - and this applies to your average, upper middle class entitled white kid, too.  We're at an inflection point in history.  The internet has changed things radically, and the boat is pulling away without us - all of us.  So many barriers are being knocked down right now, and we're so focused on who's getting what from the government's teat that we're failing to see the world shifting around us. 
 
Education is changing.  We're almost to the point where there are some truly viable alternative paths.  I'm a postgraduate educated Engineer - recognized as an expert in my field.  In the last year, I've taken four Stanford and MIT engineering courses outside of my discipline.  These are the MOOC's (Massive Open Online Courses) that you hear people talking about.  Each one of them has been completely free discounting my time spent.  I've learned so much.
 
And yet, do you know who's taking advantage of this?  One of my colleagues recently taught one of these courses - and a popular one at that.  We talked about enrollment, and about 1500 people finished the coursework for the class.  Do you know how many of those resided in the US?  About 30.
 
There is a hungry world surrounding us that recognizes that the internet gives them access to some of the unfair advantage that America has claimed historically.  We're missing it, because we're too busy pointing fingers and complaining that someone got a bigger piece of the pie than we did.  We're about to have our collective asses handed to us.  And it shouldn't come as a surprise, but it will.
 
I know that I'm privileged.  I'm appalled at our history, but I can't change or affect that.  What I can change and affect is my behavior.  As I tell my kids, you can't affect the fact that the world is unfair and it sucks sometimes.  You can affect how you respond.  I hope that I can use my privilege to help people who haven't had the same experience I've had.

I truly appreciate you! Some people can't see the forest for the trees.

[Hozzie]

To me, it sounds like the military is years behind reality.   Time was, there was some truth to those statements.  Say, about 1955.   And maybe even into the early 80s. 

 

By the 80s, though, the truth in the white male stuff was just not cutting it anymore.   Overt Homosexuals and "overt" religion could get you a NEGATIVE social stigma, yes --- and it still does in a lot of places.  

 

Today, if you are not dressed oddly for your religion, have had a shower in the past week, are not lisping/crossdressing/flaming, can speak plainly in something resembling english, then you can probably fit in and do well at most places.  Sure, some places are run by bigots, but on the average, there is no issue anymore. 

 

The people that claim constant harassment over their race generally can't speak plainly or have an off-putting behavioral issue or have some sort of unprofessional look that is causing the problem.  And white folks can do that too --- give me a morbidly obese biker with tattoos of naked women, greasy unwashed hair, unshaven, unable to talk for 5 min straight without swearing, and all the stereotypes.   Now give me a black lesbian woman in a professional business outfit, speaking clearly, and so on?  Which one will you hire for say a mehish position but one that involves at least some interaction with clients?   Then reverse it, the white guy in a suit and the black gangster?  Which one you gonna hire?  Its not about race.

 

Now I personally did have a lot of unfair advantages.  My dad chose to forgo a lot of fun stuff to pay for private high school.  I was blessed with a pretty sound mind.  But there were plenty of nonwhites in my class at school --- a guy from japan was the valedictorian,  and I recall students from india and any number of nonwhite americans.  Most were white, yes.  I remember going to ga tech where I would say a very high % of the students were not only not white, but were foreign (india and asian being the bulk), and most of the professors as well (I left because half the professors could not speak well enough to be understood, actually).   I am sure that my race certainly has not hurt, but my entire life, anything and everything I have done, there has always been a minority doing the same things.  And for every door that was opened, another was shut  -- "we were looking for women/minorities for this position, sorry". 

 

I think it's easy to make a choice when the choices are so drastic such as a guy in a suit or a gangster thug.  However, what if one is white in a suit and one is black in a suit.  It is much closer.  And while I would like to believe at that point it doesn't make a difference, I do think in a lot of cases, it still does, especially depending what kind of industry you are in.  The old white guy mens club still exists.  I don't think a lot of them do it anymore because their racist, I think they just don't even think about it.  They just connect with people like themselves easier.  I think that is human nature. 

 

I think a very simple question for yourself is:  Would you rather be black?   Many say they have the same rights and in many cases have advantages over whites.  Again, would you want to be black if you're not?  If you say it doesn't matter, I will call you a liar.  It does matter.  Maybe not as much as it use to, but I will be the first to admit that I wouldn't want to be black.  Not because I am racist, but because I do think life in general would be different.

[jacob]

I would have a problem with it if they were actually wrong, the problem is they are not. From a sociological perspective white males have a distinct advantage in our society. There is tons of empirical evidence supporting that conclusion.

Site your source. I am by no means a racist, but I am prejudiced toward all people regardless of color, who isn't? Past experiences make all people wary of others until they get to know the individual personally. To touch on a quote in the OP regarding whites not having to deal with racism daily; what do you call having someone predetermine who you are and what your actions will be based on some BS claim that you walk around with a silver spoon in your mouth because you are white? Is that not "reverse racism?" This "WHITE GUILT" mentality is pushed by the liberals and most MSM on a daily basis so how do whites not deal with rasicm daily?? I am tired of this blame someone else and entitlement mentality....some people is this country need to put on their big boy pants and take a dose of grow the hell up...

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

[JAB]

I would have a problem with it if they were actually wrong, the problem is they are not.  From a sociological perspective white males have a distinct  advantage in our society.  There is tons of empirical evidence supporting that conclusion. 

 

 

Yeah, because there are so many college scholarships that are proudly given only to whites, not to mention all of those that are specifically for men, only.  Goodness knows there are no, such scholarships for minorities or women.  Oh, wait...

 

Oh, and then there is so-called 'affirmative action' that requires a certain amount of a work force be white males.  Can't forget that one.  Oh, wait...

 

Of course, we can't forget all of those government backed, tax dollar funded social programs intended to help the poor, white kids in rural areas get better schools, all the programs to keep those poor, rural white kids off of drugs and make sure they succeed.  Too bad there aren't programs for inner city minorities.  Oh, wait...

 

Finally, we must not forget the NAACP - National Association for the Advancment of Caucasian People.  Oh, no, that's right - it's the Advancement of Colored People.  To have an association for the advancement of Caucasian people would obviously be racist.  I suppose a mind wasted is only a terrible thing if that mind belongs to a 'Colored' person.

 

Personally, I am so sick of all this crap I could puke.  Quite possibly the greatest number of 'priveledged' people in this country are white but that in no way means that all white males are 'privileged'.  Personally, I am too busy trying to make a living and get by from day to day to have any time to oppress anyone and I am sick and damned tired of being blamed for something I haven't done or told that I receive 'advantages' that I do not receive.

Edited November 1, 2013 by JAB

[Hozzie]

I think you may be missing some of the point.  This isn't about all whites vs all blacks.  This was specifically about leadership positions and having an advantage as a white person to obtain those positions.  All you have to do is look at the percentage of CEO's, CIO's, CTO's, CFO's, etc that are white.  Those equivalent positions in the military are also highly made up of white males.  

 

Does it mean that if you are black or another minority that you can't reach one of those positions, of course not.  Is is statistically valid to say you have an advantage as a white guy to get to one of those positions, absolutely.  Is that unfair, we all have our own opinions.

[Jonnin]

I think it's easy to make a choice when the choices are so drastic such as a guy in a suit or a gangster thug.  However, what if one is white in a suit and one is black in a suit.  It is much closer.  And while I would like to believe at that point it doesn't make a difference, I do think in a lot of cases, it still does, especially depending what kind of industry you are in.  The old white guy mens club still exists.  I don't think a lot of them do it anymore because their racist, I think they just don't even think about it.  They just connect with people like themselves easier.  I think that is human nature. 

 

I think a very simple question for yourself is:  Would you rather be black?   Many say they have the same rights and in many cases have advantages over whites.  Again, would you want to be black if you're not?  If you say it doesn't matter, I will call you a liar.  It does matter.  Maybe not as much as it use to, but I will be the first to admit that I wouldn't want to be black.  Not because I am racist, but because I do think life in general would be different.

 

Nope, I honestly would not rather be black.   But I argue that if the guy hiring is black, he will hire the black guy at times.  I agree that people do hire sometimes based off who they identify with, but I argue that a LOT of people in the position of power are no longer whiteys as much as it once was, maybe even at or passed the break even point there, of course depends on where you are and so on -- in a big city, more even, in rual nowhere town, whites control more of the local businesses usually etc.

 

But again, I would not mind being black if the other factors weigh in.  For example, I would rather be "me" with black skin (keeping my education, decent income family,  and job etc) than be a poor white guy without those opportunities.....   from where I stand, its the income gap that is the biggest issue, and that is a handicap (or bonus) between the races ESP between black and white.

[Raoul]

Well I certainly had an unfair advantage. When my dad died (I was 8) we had the luxury of being able to plant a garden and can. My granddaddy had a farm on which we could raise our own meat. So happily we didn't starve.

When I was 12 I started doing odd jobs after school and football practice. At 16 I got a job after school and on Saturdays working at an auto parts store.

I tried the college thing but there was little money available unlike some of the programs today.

 

That unfair advantage of mine taught me that if I wanted something I had to work to get it. I pity the poor kids today who don't have the gumption to go out and make their own way in the world.

[Hozzie]

 

But again, I would not mind being black if the other factors weigh in.  For example, I would rather be "me" with black skin (keeping my education, decent income family,  and job etc) than be a poor white guy without those opportunities.....   from where I stand, its the income gap that is the biggest issue, and that is a handicap (or bonus) between the races ESP between black and white.

 

Do you think you would be where you are today all else being equal if you were black?  I agree, depending where you live, it can make a difference.  It may be only that one time you were given a chance that could make a difference.  Would being black have affected that one chance?  In your case maybe not, but I think in many cases it does.  There is more to it than just "if I could be me today" to it.  The whole point is to consider the challenges to get to where you are in life and I firmly believe that in a lot of cases, being black is harder than being white to get to the same level.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Hozzie

[Jonnin]

Do you think you would be where you are today all else being equal if you were black?  I agree, depending where you live, it can make a difference.  It may be only that one time you were given a chance that could make a difference.  Would being black have affected that one chance?  In your case maybe not, but I think in many cases it does.  There is more to it than just "if I could be me today" to it.  The whole point is to consider the challenges to get to where you are in life and I firmly believe that in a lot of cases, being black is harder than being white to get to the same level.

It could be, as I said, at my private high or public college, there were blacks in lockstep with me.   Odds are against, it, but then again, odds are against it as a white too, I was lucky.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

One advantage that whites have, at least when dealing with other whites-- If one gets ripped off, snubbed, treated rudely, then one knows that one was treated like that because the person is a jerk, or alternately it is somehow one's own fault for bringing that behavior out of the other person.

If one happens to be fat, old, or stupid, one might just say, "That beautiful babe won't go out with me because she's prejudiced against fat stupid geezers." :)

But because prejudice DOES exist in some amount (an amount less today than in the past), a minority fella would never know for sure whether he got maltreated because of his own actions, or because the other person is a jerk, or because the other person is prejudiced against skin color.

If a minority was to think about that too much, after awhile it might tend to drive a fella crazy.

[c.a.willard]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbud8rLejLM

 

thought this was appropriate.  Warning may not be work safe.

[JAB]

I think you may be missing some of the point.  This isn't about all whites vs all blacks.  This was specifically about leadership positions and having an advantage as a white person to obtain those positions.  All you have to do is look at the percentage of CEO's, CIO's, CTO's, CFO's, etc that are white.  Those equivalent positions in the military are also highly made up of white males.  

 

Does it mean that if you are black or another minority that you can't reach one of those positions, of course not.  Is is statistically valid to say you have an advantage as a white guy to get to one of those positions, absolutely.  Is that unfair, we all have our own opinions.

 

Ah, but 'minorities' are called 'minorities' for a reason.  Supposedly, it is because there are 'more' white people (majority) than any other, single 'race' (minorities.)  If, then, there are more white people it would simply stand to reason that a larger number of CEOs, etc. would be white because the 'pool' from which such individuals are chosen would be weighted simply by the percentage of overall society that they make up.  So, what you are saying is that unless such positions were somehow skewed to hire more people of a group who make up a smaller percentage of society as a whole then the group that happens to be the largest has an unfair advantage?  Unless, of course, 'minorities' aren't really 'minorities', at all.

 

Early in the last decade there was a study that found that, at the time, there were more black males in prison than in college.  Some people saw that as an indictment of our society and as evidence of how we had 'failed' that segment of society.  I have to wonder, though, if it is indicative of a societal problem or if it just might be that the particular black males in question would rather commit crimes than do the work necessary to attend and graduate college.  To me, it would seem that the onus to change the pattern would fall on the black males who are committing crimes and ending up in prison rather than those of us who aren't committing crimes and aren't going to prison.  That is not to say that there aren't plenty of lazy, white criminals or that there aren't plenty of hard-working, law abiding minorities.  However, it is often said that the simplest answer is usually the correct one and in this case the simplest answer is that if an individual is more likely to go to prison than college then that is probably because the individual in question is more likely to commit the type of crime that would land that individual in prison than to do the work needed to be a college student/graduate.  I refuse to shoulder any blame because someone would rather be a thug than go to class nor will I fall victim to 'white guilt'.

 

I came from a background of a family that was definitely not affluent.  My father's parents made him drop out of high school his junior year to help support his brothers and sisters.  He didn't want to drop out but his parents forced him to do so.  Even at that point, he had already been working for several years as he started working pulp wood with his father somewhere around the age of twelve.  My mom completed high school and that was as far as she went.  I am the first person in my immediate family to have graduated college.  I worked while attending college - sometimes a full 40 hours a week while carrying a full class load.  I have cousins who did not attend college but who are honest, hard working individuals who do not attempt to make a living through crime and then blame others for it.  I also have cousins who are in to drugs, some of whom have been to jail for theft and other crimes.  All of them are white males who lived in rural areas.  There were no bleeding heart programs to keep them out of trouble or tax-dollar backed initiatives to help steer them to an academic path.  Still, they chose their paths and they are to blame for the outcome, not society.  I could have fallen into that pattern and used my background of coming from , basically, poor white trash as an excuse I suppose but I instead chose to go a different route.  Partly this was because of my own personality and largely this was because my parents wanted something different, for me and because of the support and guidance I received from my parents and maternal grandmother.  Even now, with two Bachelors degrees and a Masters degree I am not exactly making piles of cash or receiving societal accolades but I am also not knocking over liquor stores or making meth. 

 

Statistics can be presented in such a manner to support just about any argument.  As the saying goes, there are lies, damned lies and statistics.  For me, I'll take the reality I have lived over a bunch of meaningless statistics.  The whole idea that I was or am somehow 'privileged' because of my skin color or my gender is utter B.S. and honestly it makes me angry every time I hear someone trying to claim such nonsense.

Edited November 4, 2013 by JAB

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Human beings are all built in with biases. That's how they survive. Racism is a word that shouldn't be there. All it is is

an extension of a kind of bias that allows one group to claim disadvantage from another. There are racial biases and

some of those can be considered good or bad, depending on their degree and what caused them. This racism we are

being constantly bombarded has just as much been intentionally thrown at a class or group to divide as it has been

caused on its own through slavery happenings. If you think racism is bad, wait until all races are made into slaves, not

just one, from several hundred years ago. Civilization marches on, but politicians use tools like racism to keep people

apart.

 

Racism is part of the political toolkit to be used as an emotional trick to instill guilt, most of the time, nowadays. I won't

say it doesn't exist, but I will say it is an over used word that has creaped in due to all the incrementalism that we chew

on every day. Opportunity exists for all, in one way or another. I won't let someone's crimes of yesteryear make me into

a criminal or someone filled with so much guilt that I would give everything away to make it all better now.

 

If white males have such an unfair advantage, with all the laws on the books, it must be because of something else

completely.

[Mark@Sea]

Far too many confuse race with culture.  Some deliberately.

[Will H]

Huh...  Strange.  Back when it was this man's army they just taught us how to kill the other guys and patch up our guys.  Times have changed I guess.

[LCPfraTN]

JAB, our backgrounds are very similar so I can relate to everything you said. Having said that, racism still does exist in society, so there is some validity to the argument that white males have an inherant advantage. However, there are also many racist minority individuals in our society, and the race card is played far too often. There are usually many reasons other than racism that explain the differences in the make of a group in busness or society from the demographics of an area, but those that have a vested interest in continuing to use the race card will never acknowledge that.  

[JAB]

I always liked this old Eddie Murphy skit from Saturday Night Live (back when SNL and Eddie Murphy were both still funny.)  It makes fun of the notion that whites are treated so much better or have life easier simply by virtue of being white.  That it was a Black comedian who was making fun of that notion is my favorite part.  I couldn't find the whole skit as a YouTube video which is why there is a link rather than an embedded video.

 

http://www.snotr.com/video/422/Eddie_Murphy_goes_undercoverI

Edited November 4, 2013 by JAB

[JAB]

Human beings are all built in with biases. That's how they survive.

 

JAB, our backgrounds are very similar so I can relate to everything you said. Having said that, racism still does exist in society, so there is some validity to the argument that white males have an inherant advantage. However, there are also many racist minority individuals in our society, and the race card is played far too often. There are usually many reasons other than racism that explain the differences in the make of a group in busness or society from the demographics of an area, but those that have a vested interest in continuing to use the race card will never acknowledge that.  

 

As 6.8AR stated, human beings have biases.  I believe that such has been the case ever since the development of self awareness.  For that matter, it isn't even just a human phenomena.  Chimpanzees are known to form war parties to fight other groups of chimps.  Heck, even little critters such as meerkats will fight other meerkats - animals that have no, noticeable physical differences from themselves and are only 'different' because they belong to a different group.  Yes, their prejudices are based on very basic, fundamental things such as territory and resource availability but the fact remains that they do not treat all members of their species equally.

 

I would argue that such prejudices and biases are often the impetus for advancement and development of the human race.  Think of space exploration as one example.  The U.S. wanted to put a man on the moon not only for pure, scientific curiosity but also because we wanted to get there before those damned commies beat us to it - and my impression was that it wasn't an entirely friendly competition.  Now think of all the results that came about either directly or indirectly due to the original impetus of the 'space race' - things ranging from a possible better understanding of the universe and ourplace in it right down to such humble, everyday items like Tang and Velcro.  Of course, the desire to explore outer space and the advancements that came about as a result were not entirely due to these prejudices but I do believe that those prejudices added quite a bit of fuel to the fire, especially in the infancy of space exploration.

 

There were a couple of nineteenth century gentlemen who looked at the issue in far more eloquent a manner than I can.  Some might say that these gentlemen were a product of a society that is now outdated.  I, instead, would say that these gentlemen were able to put aside ethereal, philosophical niceties (such niceties as would be called 'political correctness' in our day and age), look at the truth of human nature and admit that prejudices are natural, will likely always exist and, while they do not have to rule our actions will always at least influence our attitudes.

 

Charles Lamb was one of these gentlemen:

 

http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/lamb/sympathy.htm

 

William Hazlitt was a contemporary of Charles Lamb.  He published an essay on, basically, the same subject roughly five years after Lamb's.  Hazlitt was a bit more direct with his choice of title, however.

 

http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Essays/Hazlitt/Hating.htm

Edited November 4, 2013 by JAB