Training pictures

[TGO David]

He doesn't expect that posted training pictures won't be picked apart? What we do here is very polite compared to other sites.

I think it's more about the reasons why his photos are picked apart moreso than the fact that they are.

[Marswolf]

I think it's more about the reasons why his photos are picked apart moreso than the fact that they are.

I think that may seem like a valid point to the pickee, but the reason for that may also be valid.

Actually, I think most of us would pick apart about any training photos from anyone, but I have to admit there is an undercurrent of hostility that has developed here for what may be legitimate reasons.

[molonlabetn]

The hostility may be legitimate, I agree, but I also think that there is no need to beat a dead horse... On the other hand, any professional should be willing to accept some degree of criticism based on their perception by potential customers.

Again, Tungsten made a good point... let's not paint any organization with too broad of a brush.

The issue of free advertising is an administrative issue, but then again, this is an open forum. I can easily choose what threads to view, and which ones to avoid... I'd rather not have someone else doing that for me.

[Marswolf]

The hostility may be legitimate, I agree, but I also think that there is no need to beat a dead horse... On the other hand, any professional should be willing to accept some degree of criticism based on their perception by potential customers.

Again, Tungsten made a good point... let's not paint any organization with too broad of a brush.

The issue of free advertising is an administrative issue, but then again, this is an open forum. I can easily choose what threads to view, and which ones to avoid... I'd rather not have someone else doing that for me.

As you say, the free advertising issue isn't part of my purview. That's a done issue for me.

The horse will die when he is allowed to do so. The critics are not the ones who keep the issue stirred up. New posts telling and showing how wonderful pseudo-military training is does that.

And potential customers are not the ones who should be critiquing the training. The people doing that should be people who work in the field and have experience with real bullets coming back at them. As I recently commented elsewhere, my force on force training uses real bullets on both sides.

[molonlabetn]

As you say, the free advertising issue isn't part of my purview. That's a done issue for me.

The horse will die when he is allowed to do so. The critics are not the ones who keep the issue stirred up. New posts telling and showing how wonderful pseudo-military training is does that.

And potential customers are not the ones who should be critiquing the training. The people doing that should be people who work in the field and have experience with real bullets coming back at them. As I recently commented elsewhere, my force on force training uses real bullets on both sides.

I totally agree with you that the folks who rely on their training to stay alive in a conflict are the ones who should have the last word on critiquing what works and what doesn't. That's why you don't see me climbing anyone's ass about technical mistakes seen in pictures... I'm not qualified to. However, since you are qualified to critique such things, I think that's perfectly appropriate and relevant. But, one doesn't have to be a combat vet to form a general opinion from what one does know, albeit limited.

I just think that such things could be discussed with less hostility from both sides. That's all.

I enjoy the pictures for their entertainment value... I think that doing that would be fun. But, would I use it? Probably not.

[Marswolf]

Well, the pictures are entertaining.

[Guest myheartsinTN]

So what is wrong with a muzzle in the dirt. I'm asking because I want to learn. Looks like a less than ideal position yet fairly safe given the circumstances of the shot.

I wonder how many of these people are now in Iraq or Afghanistan. Are these really civilian contractors looking to brush up on skills. Or are they weekend warriors looking to test out their new 5.11 gear complete with blood type and flag patches.

Yep sure does look like it. That would be a good what not to do training pic.

[Punisher84]

A muzzle in the dirt is never a good thing, period. Basically it's one of those things that is fine if the ground is solid, but it's bad weapon retention. I like single point slings, but you have to train with them properly. If that had been Iraq or Afghanistan or in the dirt on a rainy day that guy has got a crudded barrel and that can cause problems.

Some of the people training I'm sure are civilian contractors and are trying to get some refresher or advanced skills from the class. Others are probably just having fun and it's not a serious effort for them.

[molonlabetn]

So what is wrong with a muzzle in the dirt. I'm asking because I want to learn. Looks like a less than ideal position yet fairly safe given the circumstances of the shot.

A blocked barrel WILL take your weapon out of commission in short order, if it doesn't blow up in your face and injure you.

I wonder how many of these people are now in Iraq or Afghanistan. Are these really civilian contractors looking to brush up on skills. Or are they weekend warriors looking to test out their new 5.11 gear complete with blood type and flag patches.

Don't know numbers or percentages, but I am aware of examples of each... It's a mixture. Some are LEO, some military, some ex-military, some seeking or involved in contractor work, some wannabees, some doing it for the fun factor or general fitness/preparedness...

No reason is necessarily wrong, per se... The important thing is to have a reason, and a clear understanding of it.

[Guest myheartsinTN]

Good to know. But how is that weapon going to go off with out a finger on the trigger. I would guess that weapon is on safe in that pic. The guy shooting is using a different weapon.

I understand what you guys are saying and I agree its not a great place. But given the circumstances of the pic it looks safe to me.

A blocked barrel WILL take your weapon out of commission in short order, if it doesn't blow up in your face and injure you.

[saintsfanbrian]

The weapon itself is safe until he goes to fire it. If the barrel is plugged, it could cause serious damage to the firearm or the shooter, Then again, it would be nothing like the finger in the barrel that Bugs Bunny always did.

[Marswolf]

I can't tell if he is using the second rifle as a field expedient monopod or just accidentally dropping the muzzle into the dirt. Either way, it's not a good idea. Your life depends on your weapons. You need to take care of them.

[Guest Phantom6]

Marswolf wrote:

Your life depends on your weapons. You need to take care of them.

So true, So true! Even without the barrel becoming obstructed, the muzzle is the last part of the bore that the projectile passes through. If you bugger that up you could be missing your target. Obviously not a good thing to do when your target is throwing steel down range at you as fast as his little AK can sling it. That is why it is always suggested that even in cleaning your gun you should always clean the barrel from the breach end. Don't want to take a chance on fouling the muzzle.

[Marswolf]

Phantom6, I probably should start another topic on this but I'll ask your opinion here anyway. For that matter, the question is open to everyone.

What do you think of Otis cleaning kits?

http://www.otisgun.com/

[Guest Len]

Phantom6, I probably should start another topic on this but I'll ask your opinion here anyway. For that matter, the question is open to everyone.

What do you think of Otis cleaning kits?

http://www.otisgun.com/

Mars:

Funny you should ask... I just today ordered their shotgun cleaning kit. Have heard nothing but good things from people I respect. Supposedly, the Otis kit will allow quick and efficient cleaning of major components in one step. We shall see...

-Len

[Marswolf]

I've been using one for several years. The thing can fit on your belt and cleans everything from, .17 caliber to 10 gauge.

Probably not the cleaning gear to use if you are in a hurry. It takes a little longer, but cleans the proper way, from breach to muzzle.

[Guest Phantom6]

Phantom6, I probably should start another topic on this but I'll ask your opinion here anyway. For that matter, the question is open to everyone.

What do you think of Otis cleaning kits?

http://www.otisgun.com/

I like 'em. That's how I was taught to clean firearms.

Its amazing how things develop. My dad used to take a length of stout but small diameter cord and tie a knot in the end of it. He'd cut a small hole in his patch which would not let the knot pass through and clean his pistols with that (our rifles were bolt action and the shotguns were hinged actions so a brass rod through the breach end was used for them). He later used a length of large diameter weedeater line, cut a sharp end on one end and melted the other end of it into a knot. That's how I grew up cleaning guns. We'd only brush the bores down about once a year which of course in the old days meant carefully going in through the muzzle end on a revolver.

A friend of mine "liberated" an OTIS system from the morass of USA Supply and sent it to me. I've used it and found that it works extreamly well. Certainly much better than cotton cord or weedeater line. Due to it's compactness, its stowability is unmatched. Because of what I do, I clean firearms in volume so I carry a large bag of cotton patches, a super sized bottle of solvent and three different types of lubricant so all of this necessetates my carrying my stuff around in a tackle box. Out the window goes compactness and stowability.

[Marswolf]

I have to admit that the Otis kit is normally supplemented by other cleaning gear. But it all fits in a mechanics soft tool bag that is easy to throw in. But in a pinch, the Otis kit by itself is usable as it comes.

[Guest jackdog]

never tried one, but you guys got me interested, so I guess I better find one.

[Guest Len]

Got my Otis shotgun cleaning kit the other day and have found it useful. It provides an effective way of cleaning a shotgun in the proper way (breech-forward, not muzzle-backward) without field stripping. It did a fine job on my Mossberg 535 pump, and I imagine it would be even easier with break-actions. It is also small, easily packed in a range bag and even has a belt loop if you want it really handy. Even came with a how-to CD.

But...

In my experience, the effectiveness of cleaning tools lies primarily with the user. With anything but the lowest-end cleaning supplies, if you follow proper technique and are serious about keeping your guns clean, they will be clean. On the other hand, you can buy the best, but if you use it poorly, or not at all, it wont do you any good (or may even cause harm.)

IMHO, if it works for you and your firearms, then great. The rest is just hype.

[Guest 0down]