Homeschooling

[GoneBallistic]

His teacher was older and knew she couldn't be fired.

Tenure is a HUGE problem in my opinion.

[Jonnin]

I understand what you are saying, but aren't your examples a little extreme?  I didn't hit cal based physics until my sophomore year of college, and it was the first semester of my junior year before diffy.  The sad part is that I took three semesters of calculus, linear algebra, and differential equations, and I don't remember the first thing about them.  I wonder if there are any high school kids actually taking those courses.?

 

I dunno.  About 1/5 or so of my class had calc 1&2 upon exiting high school.  We had at least 2 sections of AP (calc) physics.  One of the brightest was my friend and he had enough AP credit that he started college as a sophmore.  Some kids can handle this stuff by age 16, not all but some.  Probably more than we think since most public schools give kids the same material year in and year out after about the 9th grade.  And average parents are not going to be able to teach AP 3+ level classes (the max I think is AP 5?)  to their child -- many may not even know of the program.   I also had my first computer programming class (for college credit) as a senior in highschool --- we had 4 students in that class that were in the 7th and 8th grade... the rest mostly jr/sr age but that tells you something....

 

If your kid wanted college credit ap classes in computer programming or advanced math or english or history or.... can you do it?   If I had a child that wanted to study history, I would be in trouble... I can barely remember that we had a civil war, most of the rest of it is a blur and the roman/ancient era? Um, I remember superbus because he had a stupid name.... thats about it...

Edited October 26, 2013 by Jonnin

[sigmtnman]

I dunno.  About 1/5 or so of my class had calc 1&2 upon exiting high school.  We had at least 2 sections of AP (calc) physics.  One of the brightest was my friend and he had enough AP credit that he started college as a sophmore.  Some kids can handle this stuff by age 16, not all but some.  Probably more than we think since most public schools give kids the same material year in and year out after about the 9th grade.  And average parents are not going to be able to teach AP 3+ level classes (the max I think is AP 5?)  to their child -- many may not even know of the program.   I also had my first computer programming class (for college credit) as a senior in highschool --- we had 4 students in that class that were in the 7th and 8th grade... the rest mostly jr/sr age but that tells you something....

 

If your kid wanted college credit ap classes in computer programming or advanced math or english or history or.... can you do it?   If I had a child that wanted to study history, I would be in trouble... I can barely remember that we had a civil war, most of the rest of it is a blur and the roman/ancient era? Um, I remember superbus because he had a stupid name.... thats about it...

 

I taught my self to program at age 9.  Neither of my parents had college degrees or any idea how to use a computer. 

 

One of the main ideas behind homeschooling is learning how to educate yourself.  It's like teaching a man to fish.

[Jonnin]

I taught my self to program at age 9.  Neither of my parents had college degrees or any idea how to use a computer. 

 

One of the main ideas behind homeschooling is learning how to educate yourself.  It's like teaching a man to fish.

Well in that case, homeschoolin' is easy, just turn em loose and let them figure it out :)  And you will save a ton on college too, good luck with that career thing though...!

I agree that the *point* of education is to teach someone how to learn and how to do for themself, yes.  And school has really dropped the ball here, esp college level. That is a big subject in and of itself, and an important part of the failing of our system. I don't really want to sidetrack too far there though.

 

But as I already said, from the quality of parenting one sees these days, if public school went away, do you really think the "people of wal-mart" types are qualified to educate their offspring?  As bad as public school is, its better than what I would expect out of at least 50% of parents that I see out and about.  My whole point remains that there are some parents who can't do it (and even more who WILL NOT) --- so public schooling, bad as it is, has its place.   I think homeschooling done right is superior in general -- maybe not compared to 10+ grand a year private high school, but far better than most public.  And I think very few parents can & will do it right.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Jonnin

[sigmtnman]

.. My whole point remains that there are some parents who can't do it (and even more who WILL NOT) --- so public schooling, bad as it is, has its place.   ...

 

What is the effective success rate for public education?

[TMF]

The numbers aren't in dispute, but the problem with those numbers is that it ignores very relevant variables. The main one being the involvement of parents. Obviously, parents who homeschool are very involved in their child's education. Not just because they are the ones teaching them, but also that they have made such a conscious decision on their child's education and future. In public school you have a very wide ranging level of involvement of parents; some that are very involved, some who could care less and then everyone else in the middle. The parents who are very involved will likely have kids who will do well in public school. The folks who use public school as a day care center won't have the same results. You see? Edited October 26, 2013 by TMF

[Hershmeister]

The numbers aren't in dispute, but the problem with those numbers is that it ignores very relevant variables. The main one being the involvement of parents. Obviously, parents who homeschool are very involved in their child's education. Not just because they are the ones teaching them, but also that they have made such a conscious decision on their child's education and future. In public school you have a very wide ranging level of involvement of parents; some that are very involved, some who could care less and then everyone else in the middle. The parents who are very involved will likely have kids who will do well in public school. The folks who use public school as a day care center won't have the same results. You see?

And the logical conclusion to these facts is to homeschool if you care about your kids. Or else immerse them in an environment of peers and parents with much lower values placed on education

[sigmtnman]

The numbers aren't in dispute, but the problem with those numbers is that it ignores very relevant variables. The main one being the involvement of parents. Obviously, parents who homeschool are very involved in their child's education. Not just because they are the ones teaching them, but also that they have made such a conscious decision on their child's education and future. In public school you have a very wide ranging level of involvement of parents; some that are very involved, some who could care less and then everyone else in the middle. The parents who are very involved will likely have kids who will do well in public school. The folks who use public school as a day care center won't have the same results. You see?

 

No, Jonnin is saying because half the people are stupid (in his opinion) public education is necessary and good. The fact that almost a quarter  of high school freshmen do not graduate and 1/5 of those graduates can not read makes that argument irrelevant.  He uses the cream of his crop to compare to the culls of homeschooling.

Sure, there needs to be something in place for the kids who parents don't or can't care for them but is subjecting everyone to public education and it's ridiculous expense the answer?  It is if you desire a non entrepreneurial subservient working class.

Edited October 26, 2013 by sigmtnman

[TMF]

And the logical conclusion to these facts is to homeschool if you care about your kids. Or else immerse them in an environment of peers and parents with much lower values placed on education

Well, no. I mean, it's great for some people that have the ability to do it, but not everyone can, so to suggest a person doesn't care about their kids if they send them to public school is absurd.

Believe it or not, very smart and capable kids do well in school every day. Just because a bunch of sh**heads come out of the same institution doesn't make them all guilty of being sh**heads by default.

[TMF]

No, Jonnin is saying because half the people are stupid (in his opinion) public education is necessary and good. The fact that almost a quarter of high school freshmen do not graduate and 1/5 of those graduates can not read makes that argument irrelevant. He uses the cream of his crop to compare to the culls of homeschooling.

Sure, there needs to be something in place for the kids who parents don't or can't care for but is subjecting everyone to public education and it's ridiculous expense the answer? It is if you desire a non entrepreneurial subservient working class.

Not everyone has the time or income to homeschool or pay for private school. Plenty of parents who fit that category have kids who get an education, go to college and become productive members of society. That wouldn't otherwise happen if they never received an education to begin with. It isn't one or the other. That's the problem with these debates; it's either one side that says if you don't homeschool your kids you're a crappy parent, and the other saying if you do homeschool your kids they're gonna turn out to be all f**d up. For crying out loud, people do stuff differently. Your solution may not be the best for every situation and vice versa.

[Hershmeister]

Your post support my argument for school vouchers - let the market decide

As far as homeschooling goes, it is something that everyone can do if they desire - the resources are out there - and for dual working couples, vouchers would free them from the only option of their local public school. Why should your childs school funding be based on where they live? Its a silly concept

[sigmtnman]

Not everyone has the time or income to homeschool or pay for private school. Plenty of parents who fit that category have kids who get an education, go to college and become productive members of society. That wouldn't otherwise happen if they never received an education to begin with. It isn't one or the other. That's the problem with these debates; it's either one side that says if you don't homeschool your kids you're a crappy parent, and the other saying if you do homeschool your kids they're gonna turn out to be all f**d up. For crying out loud, people do stuff differently. Your solution may not be the best for every situation and vice versa.

 

I agree with you for the most part.  What I don't agree with is the idea that our current system as run by our oh so capable government is the answer.  There needs to be something, but I don't envision it being anything close to what we have now.

[TMF]

Your post support my argument for school vouchers - let the market decide

As far as homeschooling goes, it is something that everyone can do if they desire - the resources are out there - and for dual working couples, vouchers would free them from the only option of their local public school. Why should your childs school funding be based on where they live? Its a silly concept

Well I think that goes into a completely new topic of how schools are funded, how that funding is managed, how teacher talent is acquired and how crappy teachers are jettisoned. I agree, that part needs an overhaul.

At the root of the issue we're discussing though, it all comes down to how much parents involve themselves in their child's education. Parents who do not have the option to homeschool can still be very involved (and that doesn't mean calling the teacher to ask them why Johnny can't read). Education is a joint effort on the part of teacher, parent and student.

[sigmtnman]

Well I think that goes into a completely new topic of how schools are funded, how that funding is managed, how teacher talent is acquired and how crappy teachers are jettisoned. I agree, that part needs an overhaul.

At the root of the issue we're discussing though, it all comes down to how much parents involve themselves in their child's education. Parents who do not have the option to homeschool can still be very involved (and that doesn't mean calling the teacher to ask them why Johnny can't read). Education is a joint effort on the part of teacher, parent and student.

 

And the State?

[TMF]

And the State?

Well the teacher would be paid for with tax dollars from the state or private dollars if it be a private school. Of course, if homeschooling the teacher would be the parent.

[Chucktshoes]

Well the teacher would be paid for with tax dollars from the state or private dollars if it be a private school. Of course, if homeschooling the teacher would be the parent.

And yet even people that homeschool, private school on those with no kids pay taxes for all of those public school teachers.

[TMF]

And yet even people that homeschool, private school on those with no kids pay taxes for all of those public school teachers.

Yep, not saying it's done efficiently. Surely there is a way to privatize the whole thing without denying access to all American kids, I just ain't smart enough to have the answer, and if I did it would never happen anyway.

[sigmtnman]

Yep, not saying it's done efficiently. Surely there is a way to privatize the whole thing without denying access to all American kids, I just ain't smart enough to have the answer, and if I did it would never happen anyway.

 

Back to the whole point of the OP and the originating blog post.  The system is functioning as designed.

[Lumber_Jack]

Homeschooling has a resource now they didn't have 15 years ago. It's the internet. There are a ton of resources for helping kids learn material that might be beyond the grasp of the parents. Some courses are full online courses and the parents only have to supervise and make sure they are doing the work.

[tnguy]

Getting rid of the Fedgov's involvment in local education would be step #1. Homeschoolers typically aren't against public or other forms of education but more for a plurality of options. If local communities can decide how they implement local public schools rather than having to conform to the shitty federal government mold, that can only be a good thing.