Scope vs Red dot for ar15

[Drjack88]

I'm debating whether to get a 1-4x scope or a red dot for my colt. Max around 400$. Primarily going to be to be at the armory range plinking. I know the red dot may need a magnifier that's why I'm wondering about a scope...any suggestions or helpful opinions? Thanks

[Dolomite_supafly]

If you are not going to be shooting past 200 then a red dot will be fine. But don't expect great groups either because most red dots are large making it difficult to get the same sight alignment shot to shot.

Even if you are not shooting past 200 a scope would work well too. The only problem is a scope does not allow both eyes open shooting. The groups will be tighter with a scope because the cross hairs tend to be thinner.

I have, and use, both and if I am not worried about making super precise shots, like shooting steel targets, I use a red dot. For times when I am shooting for groups, like shooting paper, I use a magnified optic.

It is possible to have both on tend same gun as well. I have run that combination before and it works really well.

[whitewolf001]

What Dolomite hinted at, philosiphy of use is key here. Answer that and you will have your answer. If batteries are a concern, get an Aimpoint, they last about as long as a Tritium and that's if it's left on.

[tbenedict]

Good info. I haven't stepped up to the high power stuff yet, but I ended up getting a cheap UTG Bugbuster for my 15-22. I'm still tempted to pick up a red dot at some point, but I thought I would start out with a scope since my eyesight is a hinderance.

[KKing]

I'll kinda echo what everyone else said, it depends on what type of shooting you do. Honestly, I think a 1-4x is the best of both worlds, but if you go that route be sure to get quality glass because you want a scope that is good on both ends of the spectrum. Red dots are for quicker acquisition of your target , all depends on your preferences

[Refleks]

My philosophy of use: other than range toy if my rifle is used in anger it will prob be in a home defense scenario. So red dot is indicated to me, but I like the idea of a magnified optic for general purpose / ranch type use so I went with a micro red dot with flip to side magnifier.

On a 1x-4x do you have to ensure your head is positioned for the proper eye relief even at 1x as you would expect with a scope, or is it forgiving like a red dot?

I mean technically we should all be able to hit 300-500m with irons right? ;) Edited October 24, 2013 by Refleks

[Dolomite_supafly]

I have used a red dot to hit man sized targets at 600 yards with an AR. Once I figured out hold over it was easy to get 5 out of 10 hits at that range.

 

I will say that I used a Millett Zoom Dot to do it. It is kind of a unique red dot in that you can adjust the size of the dot from 1 MOA to 10 MOA. It also automatically adjusts to ambient light which is another requirement for red dots I buy form now on.

 

Another great red dot is a Burris Fast Fire. It has a set size of dot but does automatically adjust for ambient light. It also allows the sight to be turned off which is another requirement. Battery life of the Fast Fire is measured in years.

 

When using a red dot I zero it at 25 yards. That keeps the bullet within a few inches of point of aim out to about 275 yards. For any scope on a centerfire supersonic I zero it at 100 yards. If you zero at 100 yards then any adjustments for range will all be the same direction on the turret. If you do a 25 yard zero with a scope that is shooting supersonic ammo you have to first dial down then back up which can get confusing. 

[whitewolf001]

I have used a red dot to hit man sized targets at 600 yards with an AR. Once I figured out hold over it was easy to get 5 out of 10 hits at that range.

 

I will say that I used a Millett Zoom Dot to do it. It is kind of a unique red dot in that you can adjust the size of the dot from 1 MOA to 10 MOA. It also automatically adjusts to ambient light which is another requirement for red dots I buy form now on.

 

Another great red dot is a Burris Fast Fire. It has a set size of dot but does automatically adjust for ambient light. It also allows the sight to be turned off which is another requirement. Battery life of the Fast Fire is measured in years.

 

When using a red dot I zero it at 25 yards. That keeps the bullet within a few inches of point of aim out to about 275 yards. For any scope on a centerfire supersonic I zero it at 100 yards. If you zero at 100 yards then any adjustments for range will all be the same direction on the turret. If you do a 25 yard zero with a scope that is shooting supersonic ammo you have to first dial down then back up which can get confusing. 

 

Pertaining to the Burris Fastfire(yes, this has been :hijack: ), would one need a riser to co-witness since it is so small?

[Hershmeister]

Correction: An ACOG gives you magnification AND you can use both eyes open

But if youre only shootif 25yds, i dont see the point of a scope - go with a dot - Eotech, Aimpoint, Meprolight, burris, etc

[Mark@Sea]

This link might help... 

http://mountainguerrilla.wordpress.com/2013/10/17/optics-options-for-the-fighting-rifle/

[jcluff]

http://swfa.com/Bushnell-1-4x24-AR-Optics-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P61352.aspx

It has illumination, if needed. It is a first focal plane reticle, so when you zoom it out, it is just a red horse shoe dot and you can use it like a red dot with both eyes open. Zoomed in to 4x, you have a reticle that can be used to help estimate the range of a man sized target with bullet drop compensation (if you are using 55gr or 62gr 5.56).

Downside is that it still has eye relief so it's not as forgiving on head position as your standard red dot. I also recommend 45 degree offset sights as your backup iron sights so you don't have to worry about flip up and cowitness. If the time ever comes that you have to jump from optic to something more suited for cqb, then just rotate your gun slightly and use the irons.


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[jcluff]

Also, according to guns n ammo, the military was evaluating switching to vcog from acog and red dots for the reason of having one optic that can dual role. I think the sequester has hampered further evaluation, but I could be mis-remembering.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2013/10/21/trijicon-vcog-review/


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[TMF]

Also, according to guns n ammo, the military was evaluating switching to vcog from acog and red dots for the reason of having one optic that can dual role. I think the sequester has hampered further evaluation, but I could be mis-remembering.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2013/10/21/trijicon-vcog-review/


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It would be a shame if they went with that over the Elcan 1-4 spectre. The elcan is waaaaay better and more forgiving for eye relief, plus the side throw lever beats everything I've seen..... about $500 cheaper too.

[Dolomite_supafly]

It would be a shame if they went with that over the Elcan 1-4 spectre. The elcan is waaaaay better and more forgiving for eye relief, plus the side throw lever beats everything I've seen..... about $500 cheaper too.

 

Cheaper than the VCOG? WOW, the Trijicon must be EXPENSIVE because I know the Elcan isn't exactly a cheap optic either. Never heard of the VCOG until now.

 

The VCOG uses a horseshoe reticle developed and patened by a guy I know, Ed Verdugo. He spent at least a decade developing his horse shoe reticle and the 1-6 scope for it. Trijicon's scope performs identical to his with the 1-6 magnification and the horseshoe reticle. His was being offered for sale 5+ years ago and now Trijicon has a "new" variable scope design. I will give him a call to see if they are paying him for it, if not I will never use another Trijicon product.  He offered it to various scope makers but all turned him down then came out with their own horse shoe reticle. He said he went to Leupold when they started using it without licensing and they laughed at him. They told him to sue them but they also told him to remember they have a lot more resources than him and that is why I do not own a Leupold product. He has had several manufacturers use his reticle and the only one to pay him royalties so far is Burris.

 

Here is Ed's scope that was being sold 5+ years ago. It was extremely well received by the same crowd that normally buys Trijicons. I know if I were him I would be pissed.

http://www.nordenperformance.com/crs_specs.html

 

BTW, Ed Verdugo has been making slings for over twenty years, he initially developed the sling end plate for the AR15. Ed also developed the CQB reticle for IOR Valdada.

 

No doubt Trijicon products are great and are durable but it is also about doing what is right.
 

[Spurholder]

For the money and the usage described, you won't find a better deal than this:

 

http://www.brownells.com/optics-mounting/electronic-sights/red-dot-sights/patrol-rifle-optic-pro--prod54099.aspx

[jcluff]

Cheaper than the VCOG? WOW, the Trijicon must be EXPENSIVE because I know the Elcan isn't exactly a cheap optic either. Never heard of the VCOG until now.

The VCOG uses a horseshoe reticle developed and patened by a guy I know, Ed Verdugo. He spent at least a decade developing his horse shoe reticle and the 1-6 scope for it. Trijicon's scope performs identical to his with the 1-6 magnification and the horseshoe reticle. His was being offered for sale 5+ years ago and now Trijicon has a "new" variable scope design. I will give him a call to see if they are paying him for it, if not I will never use another Trijicon product. He offered it to various scope makers but all turned him down then came out with their own horse shoe reticle. He said he went to Leupold when they started using it without licensing and they laughed at him. They told him to sue them but they also told him to remember they have a lot more resources than him and that is why I do not own a Leupold product. He has had several manufacturers use his reticle and the only one to pay him royalties so far is Burris.

Here is Ed's scope that was being sold 5+ years ago. It was extremely well received by the same crowd that normally buys Trijicons. I know if I were him I would be pissed.
http://www.nordenperformance.com/crs_specs.html

BTW, Ed Verdugo has been making slings for over twenty years, he initially developed the sling end plate for the AR15. Ed also developed the CQB reticle for IOR Valdada.

No doubt Trijicon products are great and are durable but it is also about doing what is right.

Ed needs to be shopping for lawyers. Seriously. If he patented that reticle and produced a product using his own reticle, he has a pretty open and shut case. Many patent lawyers would see this as a windfall case where the prospects of the creator and the lawyer to make a lot of money is HUGE. All he has to do is win one case and file suit against the rest and they will be clambering at the bit to settle.


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[jcluff]

For the money and the usage described, you won't find a better deal than this:

http://www.brownells.com/optics-mounting/electronic-sights/red-dot-sights/patrol-rifle-optic-pro--prod54099.aspx

Well, you might find a better deal, but not consistently.
http://www.slickguns.com/product/aimpoint-pro-380-free-shipping-use-code-slickpro-only-50-available-price


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[whitewolf001]

For the money and the usage described, you won't find a better deal than this:

 

http://www.brownells.com/optics-mounting/electronic-sights/red-dot-sights/patrol-rifle-optic-pro--prod54099.aspx

 

Oh, I beg to differ... Free shipping and a dolla son! ;)

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XAP12841&name=Aimpoint+PRO+Patrol+Rifle+Optic+Red+Dot+Sight&groupid=84

[MacGyver]

It would be a shame if they went with that over the Elcan 1-4 spectre. The elcan is waaaaay better and more forgiving for eye relief, plus the side throw lever beats everything I've seen..... about $500 cheaper too.

Man, the ELCAN Spectre is a great optic.  It's like mounting your living room window on your rifle.

[TMF]

Man, the ELCAN Spectre is a great optic.  It's like mounting your living room window on your rifle.

 

Yeah, I wasn't sold on them when they first came in, but after putting the Doctor sight on it and running for a week of flat range I became a believer.  I haven't seen a more versatile sight which is so user friendly yet.

[mikegideon]

Ed needs to be shopping for lawyers. Seriously. If he patented that reticle and produced a product using his own reticle, he has a pretty open and shut case. Many patent lawyers would see this as a windfall case where the prospects of the creator and the lawyer to make a lot of money is HUGE. All he has to do is win one case and file suit against the rest and they will be clambering at the bit to settle.


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Defending a patent can be real challenging, and real expensive. The deep pockets usually win.

[RWF]

1 x 4 scope for me. a true 1 power, to me is no different than a red dot. but you have eye relief. and I use a 50 yard zero. it just what u want and plan on doing with it.

[DHF]

I recently purchased a Burris MTAC 1x4 and a LaRue SPR-E LT139 mount for it.  Nice combination.  Take a little time and check it out.  I put it on a 3 Gun type rifle whose purpose is fast acquisition and shooting out to only a few hundred yards.

[Spiffy]

Aimpoint or a Burris MTAC or TAC 30.  If you think you will do any competitions or hunt with it get the scope.

[Drjack88]

thanks for all of the advice...i ended up buying an aimpoint pro and should be getting it today or tommorrow.. i will post setup pictures once i get it zeroed in

Edited October 28, 2013 by Drjack88