Escalating a bad situation

[Fear]

My wife got spooked from that video a while back of the dude kicking in the door and nearly beating a woman to death in front of her nanny-cam. Now she wants to get her carry permit, which I'm of-course all for. 

 

My worries are that I think people get this idea that the moment they point a barrel, they now have control over the situation. It's the way it happens on TV, but I've had guns pulled on me before and all they do is piss me off. I'm afraid a rapist or other dirt bag might see her pull her piece and doubt her commitment on pulling the trigger and take it as an excuse to escalate the situation from bad to really bad. 

 

I told her I really hope that if she picks nothing else up from the carry class, it's that if you pull your pistol out you better be 200%-ready to blow some holes in someone, or else things will likely get really bad really quick. No warning shots, no drama, just draw and shoot.

 

 

[ArmyBrat61]

I have had to school my wife in that as well..."If you are going to pull your gun, then shoot....when you shoot, shoot to kill (the bad guy) or more aptly shoot to live (yourself)." We have her scheduled for the carry class in Nov. She should be way ahead of the curve.

[glock55]

Something we all need to be reminded of from time to time in regards to a hand gun carry permit 1) in a life or death situation when we pull our hand gun we must be willing to shoot and 2) if we feel we must shoot we shoot until the threat is stopped. if any doubt about this we probably don't need a handgun carry permit.

[DaveTN]

Home invaders are a different kind of criminal that a burglar. They know they are going to have confrontation when they come through the door. They move fast and are unusually armed. You may only have seconds.

 

One of the worst cases I saw was a home invasion where they disarmed the husband before he could get his gun loaded and then raped the wife in front of him.

[chances R]

Something we all need to be reminded of from time to time in regards to a hand gun carry permit 1) in a life or death situation when we pull our hand gun we must be willing to shoot and 2) if we feel we must shoot we shoot until the threat is stopped. if any doubt about this we probably don't need a handgun carry permit.

 

And I think this sums up what the carry class is about.  It is not a self-defense course, it is an explanation/instruction on the laws of carrying and using a handgun in TN.  It is also a test for the basic understanding of the law in this regard and a test to be sure you possess a minimum of knowledge to load, shoot and handle a handgun safely.  What concerns me the most is that a lot of people consider this self defense training, and now are 'trained' to handle such a situation.  To me, the HCP is analogous to a Hunter's Safety course or your Driver's Learning Permit......it should be just the start.

[GuitaRx]

My wife got spooked from that video a while back of the dude kicking in the door and nearly beating a woman to death in front of her nanny-cam. Now she wants to get her carry permit, which I'm of-course all for. 

 

My worries are that I think people get this idea that the moment they point a barrel, they now have control over the situation. It's the way it happens on TV, but I've had guns pulled on me before and all they do is piss me off. I'm afraid a rapist or other dirt bag might see her pull her piece and doubt her commitment on pulling the trigger and take it as an excuse to escalate the situation from bad to really bad. 

 

I told her I really hope that if she picks nothing else up from the carry class, it's that if you pull your pistol out you better be 200%-ready to blow some holes in someone, or else things will likely get really bad really quick. No warning shots, no drama, just draw and shoot.

 

 

I agree, not for show, only to go!

[Oh Shoot]

Oh, I dunno. Lots of encounters are "deescalated" daily when someone pulls a gun and perp runs off. Certainly simplifies your life legally and over all hassle wise, not to mention avoiding the cleanup, :)

 

Seriously though, even if perp gets away, drawing down without actually popping the cap ain't necessary a wrong thing, depending of course on exact situation. I see enough wiggle room in the statutes to where you could still be in reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury without having to actually fell the perp to prove it, so it won't get you in any hot water that actually firing it wouldn't have either.

 

But, and a big BUT, of course you have to be capable and willing to complete the drill, or I agree with the contention that there's a 50/50 chance you've just taken your own life by only having the will to show it but not use it.

 

- OS

Edited October 21, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[TripleDigitRide]

Personally, I think the whole "don't pull your weapon unless you're prepared to shoot" talk is more for those who may not have the guts to pop a cap in someone's ass. I don't think this is a one-size-fits-all answer.

 

So much of your decision making is going to be situational. There have been many situations that were deescalated simply because someone pulled a weapon. Will the outcome be the same every time? No. But you must be as prepared as possible for any number of possible scenarios. Each is likely going to require s different set actions and reactions. You probably won't really know what those actions and reactions are until you find yourself in one of those situations.

 

[Fear]

I'm not a big fan of cops, but I don't believe for a second that if a person pulls on a cop that the cop would even hesitate to empty his/her magazine in the threat. You see warning shots and other idiotic stuff on TV and people believe if it's on TV, it must be real. If a dude kicks in your door, drops on you at an ATM, etc., you are lucky if you get a half second to decide if the dude is a life-endangering threat. And I have to believe such a scumbag would have more doubts that a woman has the nerve to pull the trigger than a dude and that he could probably disarm her and do as he pleases.

 

When I had a shotgun pointed at my face by a tweaking crack-head robbing my store while I was in college, I was genuinely not scared. I was so focused on him making the mistake at pointing the barrel away from me for a second so I could grab it from him and crush his skull with the stock, it was disturbing. No bragging, there's nothing there to brag about. I just couldn't get rid of the idea that at any moment an irrational tweaker could decide to waste us all no matter how much we complied with his wants. The idea that you can trust someone to not hurt you because you submit after he was the one to brandish a deadly weapon first is absurd. If that's what goes through my head when drawn on, what goes through the mind of a sadist pumped-up on meth when he's drawn on?

 

I think that once the situation gets to the point of drawing your piece, hesitation will get you killed.

[TMF]

I think that someone who is committing a crime is in a different mindset than a person who is being victimized. The criminal initiates the scenario for the purpose of money or sex. Those aren't normally things that people are willing to face certain death over. This is evident in hundreds of videos all over the interwebz where people have pull firearms on their assailants. Yeah, there are flukes, but I think it is all situationally dependent. I'm more comfortable ending a criminal act by pulling a firearm with only the intention to shoot if they do not break contact than just opening up on them. Sadly, my reasoning is the legal headache I'd have to endure and has nothing to do with my willingness to shoot. I have no moral objection to killing a violent criminal.

However, my wife is advised, and I think all women should be, to shoot without question when presented a threat. Women inherently don't have the ability to empathize with a violent man to understand just how violent we can be. That isn't a knock on women, it's just the reality of the situation. I've spent my whole life with all that testosterone, and so I have a better understanding how far I can go and what men are capable of. There is a reason over 90% of violent offenders are male. Any time a violent attacker threatens a woman she should respond with lethal force without giving any opportunity for capitulation or escalation of the attacker; just my opinion.

[Fear]

I'm not saying pull out and blow away. I'm just saying it's hard for someone who sees a situation as fixed the moment they have a barrel out to realize that the next few seconds after you draw your weapon can go downhill very fast and the assessment at that point is the most critical.

 

At this point I just feel like I'm trolling. I'm sorry if that's how it's coming off.

[Dolomite_supafly]

My wife has talked about having reservations about shooting someone. She has said she is not sure she could do it. That was until the day my brother tried to kill us. I think it scared her bad enough that it is no longer a question whether she would do it or not. She knows that I will not heistate for a second if I need to protect my family and now I don't think she would either. That day was the most scared I have ever been, not because I might have to shoot someone but because I might have to shoot my brother. Fortunately for both of us he had a change of plans and fled into the woods near our house when he heard the sirens. We had SWAT sitting in the creek in our front yard guarding the house incase he came back. He was taken into custody later that day after a standoff.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

She doesn't need a carry permit to know how to protect herself from from a home invader. She does need to be

prepared to use the weapon if the door gets broken down, though. She needs tactics training, instead of a

permit.

 

Like DaveTN said, those perps are ready to use shock and awe and won't stop just because a homeowner

wields a gun in their face. They have no business being in there and she had better be ready to act. Huge

difference in knowing who is unlocking a door and someone crashing in one. Time will matter, also. I hope

to never run across some bold bastard busting my door or window in, but that's something that I would shoot

first, if I have a gun in my hand.

[bersaguy]

I lost my wife back in 97 to a heart attack but I know for a fact that she would not given a second thought to popping a cap or caps in a bad guy. We spent a lot of time at the range and she was a remarkable person and great shot and her first marriage was a very abusive one and she feared for her life many times from her ex. I took all that fear away by teaching her all the facts about firearms and what they are used for and I have little doubt had she been in a situation she where she feared for her life she would not have hesitated 1 second before puling the trigger.........jmho

[tnhawk]

Hopefully a person learns something about when of if, they should produce/or fire a weapon during a handgun permit class.  Learning to gain an awareness of the situation quickly, should be an important part of training.  A knowledge of the laws that apply to lawful defense is necessary to make a quick decision at the moment of crisis.

Edited October 23, 2013 by tnhawk

[bersaguy]

Well I have ask some class instructors about home defense plans and what should a person know and need to know before discharging their weapon in a home invasion or a burglary situation and I could not believe how many different answers I got and no two alike. I wonder if a lot of instructors actually know the laws about it. I think it is a key piece of knowledge that should be taught in every class. I finally got the opportunity to discuss this issue with a judge. His reply was if they are in your house and not invited in either in a burglary or a flat out home invasion once they enter your home pop caps because if they are in your home and not suppose to be there at that moment when you both see each other the threat already exists and your life is in danger at that point. If you hesitate you will most likely be dead or seriously injured if they are armed and know you may be also. They won't hesitate to kill you and you shouldn't either. He said he has had about 9 cases over the years where homeowners either experienced home invasions or came home to find one of more burglars in the home and homeowner had a carry permit and didn't hesitate to shoot. Only in one case was a single burglar not armed when they were shot but the homeowner didn't know if they were armed or not. Only that they were in their home illegally and made no attempt to flee immediately knowing the homeowner was coming in. The homeowner was found not guilty in his court and shooting was justified. Now lets hear some opinions on what the judges statements would reflect. How many people think the judge is correct and how many don't? 

[chances R]

As I understand the Castle Doctrine as well as Stand your Ground, the situations you described should and were ruled justifiable.  However, each one will be judged on any possible unique situation and as always the devil is in the details.  That is why situational awareness and avoidance if possible would always be the best option....if it is indeed safely an option.

[DaveTN]

Well I have ask some class instructors about home defense plans and what should a person know and need to know before discharging their weapon in a home invasion or a burglary situation and I could not believe how many different answers I got and no two alike. I wonder if a lot of instructors actually know the laws about it. I think it is a key piece of knowledge that should be taught in every class.

I’m not a class instructor, but like any other job you have people who are good at it and have real world experience, and you have those that took some classes and got an instructors permit with no real world experience.

You have various people right here on this forum that have responded to, been the lead investigator on, been the prosecuting attorney, and the defense attorney on real world cases; class instructors are not included in that group because their opinion in a real world case with no experience means nothing.

I’m not knocking instructors but if your instructor tells you there is some law that creates a free fire zone; he’s an idiot. As CR said the devil is in the details. The decision to charge you or not, and ultimately the decision on your guilt or innocence will be made by people that will have days to decide if what you decided in seconds was reasonable.

 

I finally got the opportunity to discuss this issue with a judge. His reply was if they are in your house and not invited in either in a burglary or a flat out home invasion once they enter your home pop caps because if they are in your home and not suppose to be there at that moment when you both see each other the threat already exists and your life is in danger at that point.

If you hesitate you will most likely be dead or seriously injured if they are armed and know you may be also. They won't hesitate to kill you and you shouldn't either.

He said he has had about 9 cases over the years where homeowners either experienced home invasions or came home to find one of more burglars in the home and homeowner had a carry permit and didn't hesitate to shoot.

That’s nine cases where obviously the DA thought they needed to go to trial. How did those nine cases end?
 

Only in one case was a single burglar not armed when they were shot but the homeowner didn't know if they were armed or not. Only that they were in their home illegally and made no attempt to flee immediately knowing the homeowner was coming in. The homeowner was found not guilty in his court and shooting was justified. Now lets hear some opinions on what the judges statements would reflect. How many people think the judge is correct and how many don't?

Not enough info for anyone to make an intelligent decision on anything other than the fact that obviously it was good for the defendant if the judge or a jury in courtroom retuned a not guilty verdict. To learn anything we would need to know why the DA prosecuted the case and why the Judge/Jury acquitted.

[McAllyn]

It's good that the OP's wife has decided to elevate her situational awareness.  My fiance has recently made the same decision.  She seems to think that a carry permit will help her defend herself.  I worked very hard in explaining to her that a carry permit is great, but it is "in no way" any kind of training.  As a matter of fact, if it's home invasions that are your main point of focus, a carry permit is completely irrelevant.  You can have as many loaded weapons in your home stashed whereever you wish with no permit required.

 

What she needs to know is what to do with them.  Where to go to get the closest one in hand.  How to effectively deploy it in whatever situation may come up.  Is she going to stand and fight, or retreat to a safe/safer area?  Does she know what happens AFTER the big boom and flash?  Does she practice with both hands/one hand/kneeling/awkward positions/etc.?  Rarely (more like never) are you going to experience a home invasion that will play out with you able to get into perfect stance and grip like at the range before the bad guy is on you.

 

That's just the things to think about in the home invasion scenario.  The "out-in-the-world" carrying situations bring a totally different set of variables into the conversation.

 

Both of these groups of scenarios bear heavily on the ability and willingness to pull the trigger when the time comes.  The "If my gun clears leather, somebody's gonna die" thing is way too ridiculous for me, personally.  She (and everyone) has to know that every situation will be different and only she (all of us) will have to rely on our split second decisions.  The only way to do that is to think about it, question it, plan it, practice it, truly give it some thought.

 

Mac

[Guest Phantom6]

A handgun carry permit class teaches nothing having to do with combat mindset. I begin each of my carry permit class with the admonition that if a student thinks this class will allow them to escape unscathed either physically, financially or emotionally from a lethal encounter then they should pack their trash and exit now. The class teaches the BASICS of safety and the law only. To understand combat mindset and tactics for dealing with a lethal situation they need other training. Whether they get it at our school or another quality place is largely irrelevant though I would certainly hope they choose our place.

 

I've said it plenty of times before and I'll say it again, I believe that my carry permit should be nothing more than the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the US and Article 1 Section 26 of the Tennessee Constitution. Until the law is changed we will simply have to deal with what we have. However, going forth armed without training mentally and physically is a foolish proposition.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Phantom6

[npgunner]

Only thing I'll add is that my mindset is: "shoot to stop the threat" and not "shoot to kill."  Stopping the threat may mean the threat is dead, it may also mean the threat is incapacitated and there is no longer a reasonable fear for my life.  The difference in those mindsets may be the difference in a justifiable shoot, or a manslaughter/homicide charge.