"Parking Lot" Bill Codified in LexisNexus

[DaveTN]

Some do. Some you must be fired for cause, and even a reduction in force goes by longevity policy. Union jobs, other contractual employment,  and state jobs for example, including state universities.
 
- OS

Yes, a contract trumps employment at will. If there is not an employment contact or union (working under a union contract), they don’t need a reason. The only impact a reason would have would be if they wanted to dispute your unemployment.

[RobertNashville]

I'm pretty dubious there are 19 states that address the issue with laws? Mainly because there are only a few states where any kind of firearm posting has any weight of law (meaning a specific penalty for violation).

 

Texas is one that has actually two different penalties for violation of two different postings. What is their "parking lot" stance in the law?

 

- OS

I wasn't talking about the "posting" issue but the "policy" issue which is actually the more thorny part of this whole issue.  One thing the TN law does is (mostly) remove criminality from having a firearm in a vehicle in a "posted" parking lot.

 

The major difference I see between the TN and TX laws is that TN simply says it's legal for a person to have a firearm in his vehicle while the Texan law specifically applies to employers...what I understand from that is that Tennessee employers may still prohibit, as a matter of policy while Texas employers cannot.

 

 

This is the Texas law passed in 2011

The law as it reads is as follows:

 

52.061. Restriction on Prohibiting Employee Access to or Storage of Firearm or Ammunition.

A public or private employer may not prohibit an employee who holds a license to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, who otherwise lawfully possesses a firearm, or who lawfully possesses ammunition from transporting or storing a firearm or ammunition the employee is authorized by law to possess in a locked, privately owned motor vehicle in a parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area the employer provides for employees.

 Sec.A52.062.AAEXCEPTIONS.

(a) Section 52.061 does not:

(1) authorize a person who holds a license to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, who otherwise lawfully possesses a firearm, or who lawfully possesses ammunition to possess a firearm or ammunition on any property where the possession of a firearm or ammunition is prohibited by state or federal law; or

 (2) apply to:

(A) a vehicle owned or leased by a public or private employer and used by an employee in the course and scope of the employee ’s employment, unless the employee is required to transport or store a firearm in the officia discharge of the employee ’s duties;

( B) a school district;

(C) an open-enrollment charter school, as defined by Section 5.001, Education Code;

(D) a private school, as defined by Section 22.081, Education Code;

(E) property owned or controlled by a person, other than the employer, that is subject to a valid, unexpired oil, gas, or other mineral lease that contains a provision prohibiting the possession of firearms on the property; or

(F) property owned or leased by a chemical manufacturer or oil and gas refiner with an air authorization under Chapter 382, Health and Safety Code, and on which the primary business conducted is the manufacture, use, storage, or transportation of hazardous, combustible, or explosive materials, except in regard to an employee who holds a license to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and who stores a firearm or ammunition the employee is authorized by law to possess in a locked, privately owned motor vehicle in a parking lot, parking garage, or otherparking area the employer provides for employees that is outside of a secured and restricted area:

(i)A that contains the physical plant;

(ii)A that is not open to the public; and

(iii)Athe ingress into which is constantly monitored by security personnel.

( B) Section 52.061 does not prohibit an employer from prohibiting an employee who holds a license to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, or who otherwise lawfully possesses a firearm, from possessing a firearm the employee is otherwise authorized by law to possess on the premises of the employer ’s business. In this subsection, "premises" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f)(3), Penal Code.

Sec.A411.203.AARights of Employers. This subchapter does not prevent or otherwise limit the right of a public or private employer to prohibit persons who are licensed under this subchapter from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of the business. In this section, "premises" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f)(3), Penal Code.

Note: This is not the complete law on Parking Lot Storage. See Texas Statutes for complete Law. Statute copied from http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/texas.pdf

Edited October 29, 2013 by RobertNashville

[Oh Shoot]

 

I wasn't talking about the "posting" issue but the "policy" issue which is actually the more thorny part of this whole issue.  One thing the TN law does is (mostly) remove criminality from having a firearm in a vehicle in a "posted" parking lot.

 

The major difference I see between the TN and TX laws is that TN simply says it's legal for a person to have a firearm in his vehicle while the Texan law specifically applies to employers...what I understand from that is that Tennessee employers may still prohibit, as a matter of policy while Texas employers cannot.

 

 

This is the Texas law passed in 2011

The law as it reads is as follows:

 

52.061. Restriction on Prohibiting Employee Access to or Storage of Firearm or Ammunition.

A public or private employer may not prohibit an employee who holds a license to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, who otherwise lawfully possesses a firearm, or who lawfully possesses ammunition from transporting or storing a firearm or ammunition the employee is authorized by law to possess in a locked, privately owned motor vehicle in a parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area the employer provides for employees.

 Sec.A52.062.AAEXCEPTIONS.

(a) Section 52.061 does not:

(1) authorize a person who holds a license to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, who otherwise lawfully possesses a firearm, or who lawfully possesses ammunition to possess a firearm or ammunition on any property where the possession of a firearm or ammunition is prohibited by state or federal law; or

 (2) apply to:

(A) a vehicle owned or leased by a public or private employer and used by an employee in the course and scope of the employee ’s employment, unless the employee is required to transport or store a firearm in the officia discharge of the employee ’s duties;

( B) a school district;

(C) an open-enrollment charter school, as defined by Section 5.001, Education Code;

(D) a private school, as defined by Section 22.081, Education Code;

(E) property owned or controlled by a person, other than the employer, that is subject to a valid, unexpired oil, gas, or other mineral lease that contains a provision prohibiting the possession of firearms on the property; or

(F) property owned or leased by a chemical manufacturer or oil and gas refiner with an air authorization under Chapter 382, Health and Safety Code, and on which the primary business conducted is the manufacture, use, storage, or transportation of hazardous, combustible, or explosive materials, except in regard to an employee who holds a license to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and who stores a firearm or ammunition the employee is authorized by law to possess in a locked, privately owned motor vehicle in a parking lot, parking garage, or otherparking area the employer provides for employees that is outside of a secured and restricted area:

(i)A that contains the physical plant;

(ii)A that is not open to the public; and

(iii)Athe ingress into which is constantly monitored by security personnel.

( B) Section 52.061 does not prohibit an employer from prohibiting an employee who holds a license to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, or who otherwise lawfully possesses a firearm, from possessing a firearm the employee is otherwise authorized by law to possess on the premises of the employer ’s business. In this subsection, "premises" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f)(3), Penal Code.

Sec.A411.203.AARights of Employers. This subchapter does not prevent or otherwise limit the right of a public or private employer to prohibit persons who are licensed under this subchapter from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of the business. In this section, "premises" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f)(3), Penal Code.

Note: This is not the complete law on Parking Lot Storage. See Texas Statutes for complete Law. Statute copied from http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/texas.pdf

 

 

Thanks for researching that, but it's even weaker than ours. Doesn't apply to schools. Does not apply to private parking that is monitored by security personnel.

 

Also, there is no language forbidding an employer from terminating employee for doing it, even in cases where he cannot prohibit it, just like ours.

 

- OS

Edited October 29, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[RobertNashville]

Thanks for researching that, but it's even weaker than ours. Doesn't apply to schools. Does not apply to private parking that is monitored by security personnel.

 

Also, there is no language forbidding an employer from terminating employee for doing it, even in cases where he cannot prohibit it, just like ours.

 

- OS

I'm not so sure...if an employer "can't prohibit" it under TX law then I would suggest that "can't prohibit" wording applies to signage and/or company "policy". :shrug:

 

[spikehunter]

How does this apply to school or campus parking lots? Is there a difference if its public or private?

[JayC]

It remove the criminal penalties, if somebody finds out you have a firearm they can still fire or expel you...  but you won't have the gun confiscated, and you can't be charged with a crime.

 

How does this apply to school or campus parking lots? Is there a difference if its public or private?

[Oh Shoot]

Hasn't been mentioned in this thread, bu 39-17-1313 is totally at odds with the federal Gun Free School Zones Act, wherein the exception is only for a carry permit issued by the state in which the school resides.

 

So going by the wording of the two laws, while a out of state permit holder could not be charged under TCA, he certainly could be under federal law.

 

- OS

Edited October 31, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[JayC]

I'm not sure that is the case...  The wording of 39-17-1351r1 would seem that under state law a valid permit from another state shall be treated as if it was issued by TN...  

 

39-17-1351r1:

 

A facially valid handgun permit, firearms permit, weapons permit or license issued by another state shall be valid in this state according to its terms and shall be treated as if it is a handgun permit issued by this state; provided, however, the provisions of this subsection (r) shall not be construed to authorize the holder of any out-of-state permit or license to carry, in this state, any firearm or weapon other than a handgun.

 

And the code from the GFSZ - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

 

if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

 

I don't think there is any case law on this anywhere, let alone here in TN....  but since an out of state permit under state law is treated as if it were issued by TN, then isn't the person carrying on an out of state license, licensed to do so by TN?

 

Just saying ti wouldn't keep me from lawfully carrying onto school grounds under 39-17-1313.

 

Also the GFSZ doesn't apply to universities/colleges, only public or private primary and secondary schools.  So my guess is the number of people who are visiting schools on a regular basis in this state that are out of state residents is pretty low.

 

Hasn't been mentioned in this thread, bu 39-17-1313 is totally at odds with the federal Gun Free School Zones Act, wherein the exception is only for a carry permit issued by the state in which the school resides.

 

So going by the wording of the two laws, while a out of state permit holder could not be charged under TCA, he certainly could be under federal law.

 

- OS

Edited November 1, 2013 by JayC

[Oh Shoot]

I'm not sure that is the case...  The wording of 39-17-1351r1 would seem that under state law a valid permit from another state shall be treated as if it was issued by TN... 

 

Well, I'm certainly not sure either, but look at the second part of your quote from the GFSZA:

 

if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license

 

Which reads to me that TN would have to verify the qualifications of another state's permit holder, which of course it does not. And I really don't think the first part is intended to mean that  any state "licenses" out of state folks.

 

Just saying ti wouldn't keep me from lawfully carrying onto school grounds under 39-17-1313.

 

But of course it wouldn't worry you or me from carrying in vechicle on TN school grounds with a TN HCP. But I wouldn't feel quite as confident doing it in another state, assuming there was no other law against it.

 

But it seems that it's a federal law not much prosecuted except perhaps in the most blatantly egregious circumstances, or would be a constant topic within the carry community, and I haven't seen a case mentioned with any otherwise legal carrier hammered with it.

 

- OS

[JWKilgore]

Doesn’t have to be in a lock box, just locked in the vehicle out of sight. That is, if you decide to go into a store that is posted.
Of course I haven’t seen many store parking lots posted, so this changes nothing for most stores.

All CBL properties are fully posted. The "No Guns" signs at the Hamilton Place Mall in Chattanooga are actually on the roads leading into the parking area, effectively posting a few miles of private roads. There are no signs at the doors. I'm not sure it's fully legal or enforceable, but the signs are there.

 

1313 effectively nullifies the signs... except...

 

My main problem with the law is that it requires that the name on the vehicle's title and the permit holder be the same. In other words, if you're driving a car solely titled to your spouse (or your brother, or a friend) or driving a rental car, then 1313 does not apply. It's legal for me to stash my carry pistol in the glove box of my personal vehicle before parking at my son's elementary school to go inside. It's illegal for me to do the same with a rental car.

[DaveTN]

All CBL properties are fully posted. The "No Guns" signs at the Hamilton Place Mall in Chattanooga are actually on the roads leading into the parking area, effectively posting a few miles of private roads. There are no signs at the doors. I'm not sure it's fully legal or enforceable, but the signs are there.
 
1313 effectively nullifies the signs... except...
 
My main problem with the law is that it requires that the name on the vehicle's title and the permit holder be the same. In other words, if you're driving a car solely titled to your spouse (or your brother, or a friend) or driving a rental car, then 1313 does not apply. It's legal for me to stash my carry pistol in the glove box of my personal vehicle before parking at my son's elementary school to go inside. It's illegal for me to do the same with a rental car.

It doesn’t say that in the law that your name has to be on the title; just privately owned.
I guess it could be an issue; but I doubt it.

[Oh Shoot]

It doesn’t say that in the law that your name has to be on the title; just privately owned.
I guess it could be an issue; but I doubt it.

 

Well, if LE wants to split hairs, statute does indeed say "in the permit holder's privately owned motor vehicle".

 

Certainly that excludes folks carpooling, and borrowed or rental cars.

 

- OS

Edited November 15, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[JayC]

We could only hope that somebody is charged for driving their spouses car under the 1313 law :)  The law would be changed so fast it would make your head spin to include all privately owned vehicles :)

 

Rumor has it there are some legislators that understand the issue with 1313 and are working to fix it next year.

 

Well, if LE wants to split hairs, statute does indeed say "in the permit holder's privately owned motor vehicle".

 

Certainly that excludes folks carpooling, and borrowed or rental cars.

 

- OS