State University - Leave Gun In Car Legal?

[DaveTN]

It sounds like if any farther work needs to be done/can be done, this is the area we need to start.

It appears to me that we lose focus by arguing about all these non-sense laws or wanting to copy laws from other states that are not Constitutional carry states. Tennessee has gone as far as we can go with gun privileges. Our next obvious step is gun rights. Rights recognized for all citizens; not just those that pay the state for the privilege.

Until we step into the “Rights” category, we are just a “Special Group” trying to claim Constitutional Rights; that dog won’t hunt.

We are at that point. We need to be the 5th state.

[JohnC]

It appears to me that we lose focus by arguing about all these non-sense laws or wanting to copy laws from other states that are not Constitutional carry states. Tennessee has gone as far as we can go with gun privileges. Our next obvious step is gun rights. Rights recognized for all citizens; not just those that pay the state for the privilege.

Until we step into the “Rights” category, we are just a “Special Group” trying to claim Constitutional Rights; that dog won’t hunt.

We are at that point. We need to be the 5th state.

 

I get what you're saying, but SCOTUS really isn't on the side of the constitution anymore as we recognize by the new ACA law (fine being called a tax, etc.).

 

The more Liberal/Progressive those judges get, the more I'd want to stay away as we may end up losing more rights through their stupid opinions.

 

Only if we could get a true constitutionalist or Libertarian type in POTUS that would get some SCOTUS judges up there that interpret the constitution as originally intended by the frames would I want to take anymore battles for our rights up there. We don't want anymore bad court opinions written that the next generation od progressive judges can cite in their opinions if you get what I'm saying here.

 

Anyway, I believe in the bottom up strategy. Most of the time, you have to start a movement from the ground, small, and work slowly (progressively) to the top. It is the strategy the progressives have used over the years that has got us to this point. So I don't mind working to get the state to recognize something like constitutional carry. You just have to make sure you have the right people in the right places of power before you take that case to them. If you have a bunch of anti-2A liberals in power in political office, judicial branches, etc., strategically it would be foolish to try to gain rights while they're in power.

 

Now off tot he mall where I have to disarm.... :wall:

[DaveTN]

I get what you're saying, but SCOTUS really isn't on the side of the constitution anymore as we recognize by the new ACA law (fine being called a tax, etc.).
 
The more Liberal/Progressive those judges get, the more I'd want to stay away as we may end up losing more rights through their stupid opinions.
 
Only if we could get a true constitutionalist or Libertarian type in POTUS that would get some SCOTUS judges up there that interpret the constitution as originally intended by the frames would I want to take anymore battles for our rights up there. We don't want anymore bad court opinions written that the next generation od progressive judges can cite in their opinions if you get what I'm saying here.
 
Anyway, I believe in the bottom up strategy. Most of the time, you have to start a movement from the ground, small, and work slowly (progressively) to the top. It is the strategy the progressives have used over the years that has got us to this point. So I don't mind working to get the state to recognize something like constitutional carry. You just have to make sure you have the right people in the right places of power before you take that case to them. If you have a bunch of anti-2A liberals in power in political office, judicial branches, etc., strategically it would be foolish to try to gain rights while they're in power.
 
Now off tot he mall where I have to disarm.... :wall:

Ironically it may be the 7th U.S. Circuit Court and the Illinois Supreme Court that sends the “Bear Arms” outside the home to the SCOTUS.
The 7th has affirmed in Moore v. Madigan that a citizen has the right to carry in public for self-defense.
In a decision last month in Aguilar v. Illinois the Illinois Supreme Court overturned a conviction and upheld the 2nd amendment.
 

OPINION
1 The principal issue in this case is whether section 24-1.6(a)(1),(a)(3)(A) of the Illinois aggravated unlawful use of weapons (AUUW) statute (720 ILCS 5/24-1.6(a)(1), (a)(3)(A) (West 2008))violates the right to keep and bear arms, as guaranteed by the second amendment to the United States Constitution (U.S. Const., amend. II).

We hold that it does.

However, I believe the SCOTUS will see the carry issue as a States Rights issue. That’s why they have dodged a direct ruling on carry and may be reluctant to hear the case and leave it at the Federal District level. I see nothing from the present Supreme Court to think they are anti 2nd amendment; quite the opposite.

We already have worked our way from the “bottom up”. The next step for Tennessee is Constitutional carry. The state is free to do what it wants and does not have to wait on a ruling by the SCOTUS (States Rights). Edited October 19, 2013 by DaveTN

[bersaguy]

Has any one ever wondered why when the government and I mean from small town to Washington DC write a law they cannot just write it in words that any layman can read and understand. They always have to use many words most folks don't understand and even after a layman like myself reads it I still in many cases have no clue what I read. How about some plain English?.............jmho

[DaveTN]

Has any one ever wondered why when the government and I mean from small town to Washington DC write a law they cannot just write it in words that any layman can read and understand. They always have to use many words most folks don't understand and even after a layman like myself reads it I still in many cases have no clue what I read. How about some plain English?.............jmho

Because most of them are attorneys and they might need the work (interpreting /defending/prosecuting) when they leave office.

[monkeylizard]

Ding! Ding! Ding!

 

We have a winner!

[Q-tip]

If this law were in effect when I was in school, I would have had my gun in my vehicle every day, regardless of school policy. I was much more worried about the felony charge than being booted from school.

[JohnC]

If this law were in effect when I was in school, I would have had my gun in my vehicle every day, regardless of school policy. I was much more worried about the felony charge than being booted from school.

There have been armed robberies on my campus, albeit, not too often, but I was hoping to at least be able to have it in the car so maybe I could get to it since most of the issues happened in the parking lots.

But to risk throwing alway years of college and be expelled, not to mention the money it has cost me, just isn't worth the risk right now.

Luckily, my wife is done as of last summer and got her Masters Degree. So don't have to worry about her like I used to being on campus at night.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro v2.2

[Guest Hauli]

I graduated MTSU in 2009. There were constant dorm muggings, multiple armed robberies, many rapes, a murder and even a girl that beat the snot out of another girl for a parking spot at the parking lot off Crestland Ave. I wouldn't think twice about keeping a gun in my car (or under my shirt) on campus regardless of their policy. Look man, you gotta protect yourself. MTSU PD ain't gonna randomly search your car so keep it in the car, don't EVER talk about it (even on here) and call it good. I once knew a dude that carried on campus. Doubt he was the only one. He was actually my best friend and we had a couple classes together. It's a nice feeling knowing that if some ex-employee or deranged teenager angry about life walks in and starts shooting, we wouldn't be victims and we could do something other than hide behind our particle board desks. Again, don't even THINK about talking about this with ANYONE.

 

The only reason I knew he carried is that he was my best friend and we'd known each other for a long time. When I lived near the Church of Christ Student center near the JUB we used to sit on our porch and watch random crap happen all the time. High speed chases, people beating the snot out of each other, car jackings, assaults. Man it was like living in the show "COPS". Hell we almost got robbed ourselves cooking out one night but my roommate had is Glock 19 on his hip and when the dude saw it he ran off. He came back and stole our bikes later, but that's another story for another time.

 

Even living off campus (Destiny Drive area) there were always huge parties with nefarious folks showing up. I'll never forget hanging out with my neighbors (all football players) at their kegger (we're talking 300+ plus) and hearing the unmistakable sound of 9mm rounds popping off. Next thing I know I'm on the deck, face down and people are running everywhere. Some guy thought he had been shot which added to the drama, but he was fine. No one was shot, which was an absolute miracle. Several more shots, the sound of a car peeling out and I get up and am inside my house in less than 30 seconds. Grabbed a few folks I knew (and were probably 20 years old at the time) and took them inside my house so they wouldn't get arrested for underage. RCSD took about 10 minutes to get there and they started arresting people as fast as they could get them in handcuffs for being underage. Think "paddywagons". Plural. They had the trunks popped open even before they stopped to get their patrol rifles out.

 

Bottom line is this man: college campuses are dangerous places these days, even MTSU. Policy be damned, at least the law (perhaps) protects you. But who gives a rip about what the law is if something is going down and you are forced to protect yourself or someone else. Be smart about it, don't run your mouth and just do your school work. If they do ever search your car make damn sure they ain't gonna find your piece and they had better have a warrant or probable cause. Don't give them a reason. Don't speed, run a stop sign, have empty beer cans, be smart.

[JohnC]

I graduated MTSU in 2009. There were constant dorm muggings, multiple armed robberies, many rapes, a murder and even a girl that beat the snot out of another girl for a parking spot at the parking lot off Crestland Ave. I wouldn't think twice about keeping a gun in my car (or under my shirt) on campus regardless of their policy. Look man, you gotta protect yourself. MTSU PD ain't gonna randomly search your car so keep it in the car, don't EVER talk about it (even on here) and call it good. I once knew a dude that carried on campus. Doubt he was the only one. He was actually my best friend and we had a couple classes together. It's a nice feeling knowing that if some ex-employee or deranged teenager angry about life walks in and starts shooting, we wouldn't be victims and we could do something other than hide behind our particle board desks. Again, don't even THINK about talking about this with ANYONE.
 
The only reason I knew he carried is that he was my best friend and we'd known each other for a long time. When I lived near the Church of Christ Student center near the JUB we used to sit on our porch and watch random crap happen all the time. High speed chases, people beating the snot out of each other, car jackings, assaults. Man it was like living in the show "COPS". Hell we almost got robbed ourselves cooking out one night but my roommate had is Glock 19 on his hip and when the dude saw it he ran off. He came back and stole our bikes later, but that's another story for another time.
 
Even living off campus (Destiny Drive area) there were always huge parties with nefarious folks showing up. I'll never forget hanging out with my neighbors (all football players) at their kegger (we're talking 300+ plus) and hearing the unmistakable sound of 9mm rounds popping off. Next thing I know I'm on the deck, face down and people are running everywhere. Some guy thought he had been shot which added to the drama, but he was fine. No one was shot, which was an absolute miracle. Several more shots, the sound of a car peeling out and I get up and am inside my house in less than 30 seconds. Grabbed a few folks I knew (and were probably 20 years old at the time) and took them inside my house so they wouldn't get arrested for underage. RCSD took about 10 minutes to get there and they started arresting people as fast as they could get them in handcuffs for being underage. Think "paddywagons". Plural. They had the trunks popped open even before they stopped to get their patrol rifles out.
 
Bottom line is this man: college campuses are dangerous places these days, even MTSU. Policy be damned, at least the law (perhaps) protects you. But who gives a rip about what the law is if something is going down and you are forced to protect yourself or someone else. Be smart about it, don't run your mouth and just do your school work. If they do ever search your car make damn sure they ain't gonna find your piece and they had better have a warrant or probable cause. Don't give them a reason. Don't speed, run a stop sign, have empty beer cans, be smart.

I lived across from campus for years. I know the crime. Seen a lot of BS myself. Part of why I was trying to figure out this parking lot law. Edited October 21, 2013 by JohnC

[JohnC]

Got a reply from Chip and he agrees with what some of you said:
 

I haven't really researched the issue, but I can tell you that the Board of Regents still takes the position that you could be disciplined (including expelled) for violating school policy. So, it appears that the criminal penalties would not apply, but school discipline would.

[JayC]

TN laws are pretty straight forward and easy to read...  It's a lot easier to read than a contract, articles of incorporation or a federal regulation IMHO.  The gun laws maybe stupid, they may lack definitions in a lot of cases, but they aren't hard to read and understand.

 

Has any one ever wondered why when the government and I mean from small town to Washington DC write a law they cannot just write it in words that any layman can read and understand. They always have to use many words most folks don't understand and even after a layman like myself reads it I still in many cases have no clue what I read. How about some plain English?.............jmho

 

[JayC]

Don't ask, don't tell...  It's not a crime...  if you don't talk about it nobody is going to know, be smart and keep your firearm properly secured (and legally) in the car and you'll be fine.

 

 

Got a reply from Chip and he agrees with what some of you said:
 

[leroy]

I like what Jay posted above... For what it's worth; if i wuz healthy and strong; i would invest in an ASP baton and carry it in some sort of a bag so i could reach it easily... I know it's "semi-illegal" to carry a "club"; but it might come in handy sometime.. Another great low cost alternate is a 6 cel aluminum maglite...

 

Food for thought...

leroy

[JAB]

If this law were in effect when I was in school, I would have had my gun in my vehicle every day, regardless of school policy. I was much more worried about the felony charge than being booted from school.

 

When I attended U.T., I worked at East Towne Mall (even in the mid-90s there were some gang related problems around the mall and the Walmart across the road from the mall.)  I also lived in the 'hood at the time (2314 East Fifth Avenue, which runs parallel to Magnolia and was about two blocks from Cherry Street.)  There was a house on the corner that I am convinced was a crack house.  Hookers would often stand at the end of the alley where I parked and you would have to nearly run over them before they would move.  There were drive by shootings on the house across the street and one house down from us (a gang member's mom owned the house - the drive-bys took place when he was visiting her.)  If there were no legal barrier to having a firearm in my car (so that it would be available if needed off campus and I could have it on me when arriving home at 10 or 11 at night after work) then concern over getting dead would have easily trumped concern over getting expelled.

Edited October 21, 2013 by JAB

[2.ooohhh]

I like what Jay posted above... For what it's worth; if i wuz healthy and strong; i would invest in an ASP baton and carry it in some sort of a bag so i could reach it easily... I know it's "semi-illegal" to carry a "club"; but it might come in handy sometime.. Another great low cost alternate is a 6 cel aluminum maglite...

 

Food for thought...

leroy

You can't just carry a baton in TN it requires a certificate from the state and likely would also be classified a weapon by the school so would still be breaking school rules. 

 

 

39-17-1308. Defenses to unlawful possession or carrying of a weapon.

 

(a)  It is a defense to the application of § 39-17-1307 if the possession or carrying was:

(1) Of an unloaded rifle, shotgun or handgun not concealed on or about the person and the ammunition for the weapon was not in the immediate vicinity of the person or weapon;

(2) By a person authorized to possess or carry a firearm pursuant to § 39-17-1315 or § 39-17-1351;

(3) At the person’s:

(A) Place of residence;

(B) Place of business; or

(C) Premises;

(4) Incident to lawful hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting or other lawful activity;

(5) By a person possessing a rifle or shotgun while engaged in the lawful protection of livestock from predatory animals;

(6) By a Tennessee valley authority officer who holds a valid commission from the commissioner of safety pursuant to this part while such officer is in the performance of the officer’s official duties;

(7) By a state, county or municipal judge or any federal judge or any federal or county magistrate;

(8) By a person possessing a club/baton who holds a valid state security officer/guard registration card as a private security officer/guard, issued by the commissioner, and who also has certification that such officer has had training in the use of club/baton which is valid and issued by a person certified to give training in the use of clubs/batons;

(9) By any person possessing a club/baton who holds a certificate that the person has had training in the use of a club/baton for self-defense which is valid and issued by a certified person authorized to give training in the use of clubs/batons, and is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm under any local, state or federal laws; or

(10) By any out-of-state, full-time, commissioned law enforcement officer who holds a valid commission card from the appropriate out-of-state law enforcement agency and a photo identification; provided, that if no such valid commission card and photo identification are retained, then it shall be unlawful for such officer to carry firearms in this state and the provisions of this section shall not apply. The defense provided by this subpart shall only be applicable if the state where the out-of-state officer is employed has entered into a reciprocity agreement with this state that allows a full-time, commissioned law enforcement officer in Tennessee to lawfully carry or possess a weapon in such other state.

(b)  The defenses described in this section are not available to persons described in § 39-17-1307(b)(1).

[Acts 1989, ch. 591, § 1; 1990, ch. 1029, § 7; 1993, ch. 200, § 1; 1996, ch. 1009, §§ 20, 21; 1997, ch. 476, § 3; 1999, ch. 295, § 1; 2003, ch. 144, § 2.]

 

 

 

So the charge for carrying a baton is apparently the same as a handgun as both are illegal. Defense to the handgun is an HCP, defense to the baton holder is holding a certificate of training.

 

 

 

OP- I suggest you look up into taking up golf or joining a local softball team. :)

[Guest 270win]

It appears it is legal, with a permit, for someone to have a firearm in his own vehicle that is parked on school property.  It does not look like that new parking lot law applies to someone borrowing a car or riding in someone else's car.  To me, it was a poorly written law.  If the area is as bad as you say it is, I would keep my gun in my vehicle and don't tell anyone that you know that you are doing that because you can still be expelled.

 

Even before this law change, non students could possess firearms on school property in ANY motor vehicle.

 

Ask your state representative or state senator to change the law so that anyone with a permit can possess a firearm anywhere on school property, not just in a car.  That would help things out a lot. 

Edited October 21, 2013 by 270win

[Oh Shoot]

Got a reply from Chip and he agrees with what some of you said:

Yup, so clear even a layman can understand it eh? (or at least should be able to :))
 

What's not clear and concise?

1. It's perfectly legal to keep loaded firearm on school property in your personally owned vehicle if you have carry permit
2. School can fire or expel you for doing it.

- OS

[MiddTennTaco]

If I am not mistaken I don't think any of these rules or new laws even matter. Doesn't Federal law prohibit the possession of firearms on ANY school property regardless of HCP or guns in trunks bill? I thought Federal law supercedes state law. This is why it kind of made me chuckle when I read that you can have a firearm in a car when picking up or dropping off a student.

[Oh Shoot]

If I am not mistaken I don't think any of these rules or new laws even matter. Doesn't Federal law prohibit the possession of firearms on ANY school property regardless of HCP or guns in trunks bill?

 

Permit is an exception to Gun Free School Zones Act of 1990.

 

It is debatable however, whether another state's permit is valid, or just the permit of the state in which the school resides:

 

"does not apply to the possession of a firearm—

 

.... if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;"

 

On the third hand, seems the feds just don't really enforce this thing anymore to speak of anyway.

 

On the fourth hand, some states have laws in conflict with the School Zones Act, and seems none have faced any court challenges from the fed either.

 

The Zones Act, btw, is another reason I've argued that the already existing "adult non-student" exception to having a gun on school grounds in TCA is intended to mean an unloaded gun only.

 

However, presuming the new parking lot bill also is valid for permit holders from other states, and I assume it is, since all other weapons laws include out of state permit holder same as TN HCP holder,  this is perhaps also a conflict with the Zones Act.

 

 

- OS

Edited October 21, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[MiddTennTaco]

No. Permit is an exception to Gun Free School Zones Act of 1990.

 

It is debatable however, whether another state's permit is valid, or just the permit of the state in which the school resides.

 

On the third hand, seems the feds just don't really enforce this thing anymore to speak of anyway.

 

 

- OS

 

I don't really think that's the case. Obviously there are no feds sitting on every campus waiting for someone to break a federal law. It's always state or local law enforcement who make the arrest or files state charges which are later dropped in lieu of more aggressive federal charges. As an example, look at how U.S. vs Lopez was handled.

 

Secondly, how is a Tenenssee handgun carry permit a defense or an exception to the Gun Free School Zones Act of 1990? It is my understanding that a TN HCP is only an affirmative defense against prosecution under state charges. If it were such an exception, what would stop a state from passing all kinds of laws to undermine all federal laws? I don't follow.

[Oh Shoot]

Secondly, how is a Tenenssee handgun carry permit a defense or an exception to the Gun Free School Zones Act of 1990?

 

Umm, because the federal act specifically says it is, at least for schools in TN,  as I quoted above?

 

- OS

Edited October 21, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[JohnC]

Yup, so clear even a layman can understand it eh? (or at least should be able to :))


- OS

I'm just very cautious and thorough. I don't want to be the test dummy for any vaguely written law that can be misinterpreted by myself or the law enforcement out there.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro v2.2

[Oh Shoot]

I'm just very cautious and thorough. I don't want to be the test dummy for any vaguely written law that can be misinterpreted by myself or the law enforcement out there.

 

You have no control over how any particular LEO interprets a law until afterwards.

 

Besides, you've said that's not the issue for you, since possibility of expulsion is numero uno.

 

- OS

Edited October 21, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[MiddTennTaco]

Umm, because the federal act specifically says it is, at least for schools in TN,  as I quoted above?

 

- OS

 

It would help if you weren't editing your posts every ten seconds. No need to make people look like an arse here.