State University - Leave Gun In Car Legal?

[JohnC]

I just need a [b]yes[/b] or [b]no[/b] here.   Can a college student with TN HCP leave his or her weapon in their car on a state college campus parking lot?   Because from what I read so far, it looks like you can't, but just want to be sure. Thanks. :up: Edited October 17, 2013 by JohnC

[DaveTN]

An AG opinion is not law, but here is what he said in May...
https://www.tn.gov/attorneygeneral/op/2013/op13-41.pdf
 

In Tenn. Att’y Gen. Op. 13-15 (Feb. 22, 2013), this Office considered the impact of Senate Bill 142 of the 108th Session of the Tennessee General Assembly (2013) (hereinafter “SB 142”), which was ultimately enacted as Chapter 16, on the possession of firearms and firearm ammunition upon school property. This Office recognized that SB142

carves out an additional exception to the present prohibition of firearms and firearm ammunition on school property set forth in Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1309. If all the requirements of SB142 are satisfied, then the holder of a valid handgun carry permit recognized in Tennessee could transport and store a firearm or firearm ammunition in the permit holder’s vehicle on school property.

Tenn. Att’y Gen. Op. 13-15 at 3. This Office further observed that “[t]his new exception to the criminal offense outlined in Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1309 does not explicitly or implicitly repeal the current exceptions” already authorizing the possession of firearms and firearm ammunition on school property. Id.

[walton6467]

The University probably has their own policy. I recommend contacting the Campus Police station or the Administration and clarifying your schools position.

[sschrick]

my understanding was, if you are a student, then NO.

[JayC]

The new parking lot bill doesn't say anything about students vs anybody else.

 

my understanding was, if you are a student, then NO.

[Oh Shoot]

New "parking lot bill" of course allows anyone with HCP to have loaded firearm in vehicle on any school property, subject to the other provisions in the statute.

 

Note however, that it does not prevent school employees from being fired, or students from being expelled for it.

 

I suspect a lawsuit at some point will change that, at least for state supported institutions.

 

- OS

Edited October 17, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[JohnC]

I wish they were more clear on this law.

 

I can't really say if it is ok or not, or worth it or not the way it is right now. :down:

Edited October 17, 2013 by JohnC

[Oh Shoot]

I wish they were more clear on this law.

 

I can't really say if it is ok or not, or worth it or not the way it is right now. :down:

 

What's not clear? You can read it yourself, link in new thread below.

 

- OS

[monkeylizard]

OS, (or others) why would 1313 make it OK on university parking lots? 1313 starts with "Notwithstanding § 39-17-1309, § 39-17-1311, or § 39-17-1359". Doesn't 1309 make it a no-no? I thought that opening line meant that 1313 has no bearing on 1309, 1311, or 1359. Which doesn't really make sense to me since I thought the point of 1313 was to make 1359 not apply so long as it was kept in the car, out of sight, etc...

 

What am I not understanding about the "notwithstanding" line?

[Oh Shoot]

OS, (or others) why would 1313 make it OK on university parking lots? 1313 starts with "Notwithstanding § 39-17-1309, § 39-17-1311, or § 39-17-1359". Doesn't 1309 make it a no-no? I thought that opening line meant that 1313 has no bearing on 1309, 1311, or 1359. Which doesn't really make sense to me since I thought the point of 1313 was to make 1359 not apply so long as it was kept in the car, out of sight, etc...

 

What am I not understanding about the "notwithstanding" line?

 

The English dictionary?  :)

 

"Notwithstanding" means "in spite of" or "regardless of". Means those three mentioned statutes are superseded/overridden by 1313.

 

- OS

Edited October 17, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[monkeylizard]

Thanks. I was thinking it meant that 1313 didn't supercede those laws, which seemed stupid considering the whole point was to make postings not apply if it was kept in the car.

 

I'll try to lay off the stupid-pills.

[willindsay]

According to 2 different HCP instructors; one being a senior officer for the sheriffs department; I've talked to it is legal under the new law. One of them did tell me though that he has heard that they will be changing the law again in the next year. He wasn't sure though which way the law would go though.

As always though both their advice was long as you don't make it known you probably won't have a problem, unless you need to use it one day.

Edited October 17, 2013 by willindsay

[Oh Shoot]

.....As always though both their advice was long as you don't make it known you probably won't have a problem, unless you need to use it one day.

 

If you use it in justified shoot, you don't have a problem either, at least from prosecution under any of the weapons statutes. (39-17-1322).

 

Welcome to TGO!

 

 

- OS

[fourteentwo]

The University probably has their own policy. I recommend contacting the Campus Police station or the Administration and clarifying your schools position.

This^^^

this was sent in an email right after the law passed...

"> To: UT Students
> From: Dr. Maxine Thompson Davis, Dean of Students
> Subject: Guns on Campus Policy Reminder
>
> As you may know, a new Tennessee law - often referred to as the "Guns in Trunks" law - went into effect on July 1, 2013. This note explains the impact of the law on UT students.
>
> In accordance with an opinion issued by the Tennessee attorney general on May 28, the Guns in Trunks law does not affect the university's Code of Conduct for students.
>
> The university's Code of Conduct prohibits students from "possessing, using, storing, or manufacturing any weapon or facsimile of a weapon on University-controlled property or in connection with a University-affiliated activity, unless authorized in writing by the Chief of Police or his designee."
>
> "Possession" also means having a firearm in one's personal vehicle. There is no exception to this university policy for a student with a handgun carry permit.
>
> For more information on this student policy, visit the Hilltopics student handbook page at http://dos.utk.edu/hilltopics/ and download the 2013-2014 issue of Hilltopics. An explanation of the policy is located on page 15.
>
> Penalties for violating the Code of Conduct range from warnings to probation, suspension, and dismissal from the university. More information on Code of Conduct penalties are on pages 18 and 19 of the Hilltopics student handbook.
>
> If you have questions, please contact the Dean of Students Office at 865-974-3179."

So it's not illegal but can get you thrown out of school.

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[RED333]

When you become a student you are held to the rules of the school.

[Oh Shoot]

> As you may know, a new Tennessee law - often referred to as the "Guns in Trunks" law - went into effect on July 1, 2013. This note explains the impact of the law on UT students.
>
> In accordance with an opinion issued by the Tennessee attorney general on May 28, the Guns in Trunks law does not affect the university's Code of Conduct for students.

 

When you become a student you are held to the rules of the school.

 
UT can say whatever it wants, but I still wager they'd fail in court. First of all, the AG opinion they cite:

 

 http://www.tn.gov/attorneygeneral/op/2013/op13-41.pdf

 

says nothing specific about employment at state agencies or state funded institutions, and certainly nothing about students at all. It mentions no distinction between private employers and state funded ones, and seems to be written from the point of view of private ones only.
 
So UT's and their supposed AG's opinion aside, I still think it's an instant winner for the first person who sues for being fired or expelled from any institution that accepts state funds. Finding a decent lawyer on contingency should be no prob, since one would have real damages in addition to any punitive ones.
 
Unlike the Employment at Will standing that much private employment has, state institutions (including UT) do not have it and rather have their own published policy for termination and reduction in force, they can not terminate "just because". You'll notice that we've seen no state offices to issue any such warnings regarding the "parking lot" bill to my knowledge, and I'd opine that the reason is that their own attorneys know it wouldn't be enforceable soon as departmental push comes to legal shove. I can't fathom the legal logic that would allow penalizing one for exactly following state law under state supported property or auspices.

 

This is not to suggest that anyone here become the test case, but someone surely eventually will.

 

Any of our actual attorneys see this, would welcome your opinions.
 
- OS

Edited October 18, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[JayC]

Even if a court didn't rule against them, it's very likely the next year the legislature would change the law preempting the schools ability to expel law abiding citizens for following state law.

 

UT really doesn't want to play that game, they'll lose in the long run.

 

 
UT can say whatever it wants, but I still wager they'd fail in court. First of all, the AG opinion they cite:

 

 http://www.tn.gov/attorneygeneral/op/2013/op13-41.pdf

 

says nothing specific about employment at state agencies or state funded institutions, and certainly nothing about students at all. It mentions no distinction between private employers and state funded ones, and seems to be written from the point of view of private ones only.
 
So UT's and their supposed AG's opinion aside, I still think it's an instant winner for the first person who sues for being fired or expelled from any institution that accepts state funds. Finding a decent lawyer on contingency should be no prob, since one would have real damages in addition to any punitive ones.
 
Unlike the Employment at Will standing that much private employment has, state institutions (including UT) do not have it and rather have their own published policy for termination and reduction in force, they can not terminate "just because". You'll notice that we've seen no state offices to issue any such warnings regarding the "parking lot" bill to my knowledge, and I'd opine that the reason is that their own attorneys know it wouldn't be enforceable soon as departmental push comes to legal shove. I can't fathom the legal logic that would allow penalizing one for exactly following state law under state supported property or auspices.

 

This is not to suggest that anyone here become the test case, but someone surely eventually will.

 

Any of our actual attorneys see this, would welcome your opinions.
 
- OS

 

[JAB]

I haven't been a student at the University of Tennessee since graduating from there (UTK) way back in 1996.  That said, during the time I spent there, no one ever searched my vehicle.  Not once.  Ever.  I did not live on campus and parked in various commuter student lots all over the campus, including the student parking garages and so on.  I did not have my HCP at the time and so I didn't have a firearm in my vehicle.  Also, that was obviously long before the current, neutered, sorry excuse for a parking lot law went into effect.  Were that law in effect at the time, however, and if I had my HCP back then, I would have not given a tinker's damn what the University's 'opinion' of me keeping private property in my private property (a firearm in my vehicle) was.  But that is just me and no one should take that as advice as to what they should do.

Edited October 18, 2013 by JAB

[JohnC]

Well, all I know is I'm not willing to be the test dummy and face possible legal issues, fines, etc.

So until we get something a lot more clear and concise stating a clear yes or no, I won't be taking my gun on campus.


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[Oh Shoot]

Well, all I know is I'm not willing to be the test dummy and face possible legal issues, fines, etc.

So until we get something a lot more clear and concise stating a clear yes or no, I won't be taking my gun on campus.

 

What's not clear and concise?

 

1. It's perfectly legal to keep loaded firearm on school property in your personally owned vehicle if you have carry permit

2. School can fire or expel you for doing it.

 

- OS

[JohnC]

What's not clear and concise?

 

1. It's perfectly legal to keep loaded firearm on school property in your personally owned vehicle if you have carry permit

2. School can fire or expel you for doing it.

 

- OS

 

For whatever reason, the law doesn't read as clear cut to me as it seems to be to you. Then the fact that they can still expel you, etc., makes it totally not worth carrying until I know for sure this law can protect me. I don't have the time and money to waste on an issue like that.

 

 

Weapons on Campus

Lethal weapons of any kind, most notably firearms and

knives, are prohibited on the university campus. The penalty

for possession of deadly weapons is enhanced by state law

to a felony if that possession takes place on campus.

 

The parking lots are part of the campus.

 

The above rule doesn't make it clear if it does not apply to permit holders in parking lots. So yeah, a lot of questions need to be asked and answers given by qualified folks who can legally and accurately comment with the facts on this before I carry and leave my gun in my car on campus.

[Oh Shoot]

For whatever reason, the law doesn't read as clear cut to me as it seems to be to you. Then the fact that they can still expel you, etc., makes it totally not worth carrying until I know for sure this law can protect me. I don't have the time and money to waste on an issue like that.

 

 

The parking lots are part of the campus.

 

The above rule doesn't make it clear if it does not apply to permit holders in parking lots. So yeah, a lot of questions need to be asked and answers given by qualified folks who can legally and accurately comment with the facts on this before I carry and leave my gun in my car on campus.

 

Suit yourself, but as per your statement, I can assure you that 39-17-1313 does not protect you from being expelled per se, so it doesn't matter whether you believe it protects you from prosecution or not.

 

- OS

[JohnC]

Suit yourself, but as per your statement, I can assure you that 39-17-1313 does not protect you from being expelled per se, so it doesn't matter whether you believe it protects you from prosecution or not.

- OS

Yeah, pretty sure I don't want to risk throwing away all the work I have done at this school just to be able to leave my gun in my car.

Really wish this HCP allowed us to carry everywhere except maybe a courthouse, mental hospital, or jail for obvious reasons.


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[DaveTN]

Really wish this HCP allowed us to carry everywhere except maybe a courthouse, mental hospital, or jail for obvious reasons.

As has been posted many times all the law parking lot law does is decriminalize guns in cars for HCP holders in some locations. It does not protect you from being fired from your job or being expelled or suspended from school. Carrying a gun in Tennessee is a crime; the state does not recognize carry off your property as an individual right, ever…even with an HCP. Until that changes state government can’t force any person, property owner, business owner, or school to allow you to carry. Only a state that recognizes the right to keep and bear arms could do that.

[JohnC]

Carrying a gun in Tennessee is a crime; the state does not recognize carry off your property as an individual right, ever…even with an HCP. Until that changes state government can’t force any person, property owner, business owner, or school to allow you to carry. Only a state that recognizes the right to keep and bear arms could do that.

It sounds like if any farther work needs to be done/can be done, this is the area we need to start.

Now I just wish I had known what I know now because I'd have started my career to be a lawyer and a politician. :lol:


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