22 in Home for Self Defense

[Guest ashleyhawkins38134]

I live in Tennessee, I have a gun carry permit. Question: If I see someone breaking into my home, do I have the right to use deadly force if I am in fear for my life and my loved ones in my home? Our  cabin is in a secluded area and the drive has locked gates.  Please help me understand the law so that I may protect me and my family in the event that this should happen.  Thank You

[TripleDigitRide]

Yes.

[TrickyNicky]

You have a carry permit and they didn't go over this in your class? I guess it IS a carry permit class, not an all out legal seminar but I still would imagine this would be covered in there somewhere?

[Wyldk2]

From my understanding, even if you are on your property, you do not have to have a gun carry permit to keep a firearm to defend yourself with. The HCP only applies if you travel off your property. Meaning it protects you the permit holder from any criminalization of "intent to go armed".

 

On your property, you are covered with or without a HCP, off property you are covered by having a HCP.

[Old Man]

From my understanding, even if you are on your property, you do not have to have a gun carry permit to keep a firearm to defend yourself with. The HCP only applies if you travel off your property. Meaning it protects you the permit holder from any criminalization of "intent to go armed".

 

On your property, you are covered with or without a HCP, off property you are covered by having a HCP.

My understanding is you can have the firearm inside your house, but in order to carry it around on your property, you have to have a HCP.

[MacGyver]

My understanding is you can have the firearm inside your house, but in order to carry it around on your property, you have to have a HCP.

Nope. It's your property. You can pretty much carry as you see fit.

[c.a.willard]

Old man's post prompted me to read the TCA again as it has been a while

 

If you will note the third item in red, premises, which includes the land and any building on your property

 

39-17-1308.  Defenses to unlawful possession or carrying of a weapon.

  (a) It is a defense to the application of § 39-17-1307 if the possession or carrying was:

   (1) Of an unloaded rifle, shotgun or handgun not concealed on or about the person and the ammunition for the weapon was not in the immediate vicinity of the person or weapon;

   (2) By a person authorized to possess or carry a firearm pursuant to § 39-17-1315 or § 39-17-1351;

   (3) At the person's:

      (A) Place of residence;

      (B) Place of business; or

      (C) Premises;

   (4) Incident to lawful hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting or other lawful activity;

   (5) By a person possessing a rifle or shotgun while engaged in the lawful protection of livestock from predatory animals;

   (6) By a Tennessee valley authority officer who holds a valid commission from the commissioner of safety pursuant to this part while the officer is in the performance of the officer's official duties;

   (7) By a state, county or municipal judge or any federal judge or any federal or county magistrate;

   (8) By a person possessing a club or baton who holds a valid state security guard/officer registration card as a private security guard/officer, issued by the commissioner, and who also has certification that the officer has had training in the use of club or baton that is valid and issued by a person certified to give training in the use of clubs or batons;

   (9) By any person possessing a club or baton who holds a certificate that the person has had training in the use of a club or baton for self-defense that is valid and issued by a certified person authorized to give training in the use of clubs or batons, and is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm under any local, state or federal laws; or

   (10) By any out-of-state, full-time, commissioned law enforcement officer who holds a valid commission card from the appropriate out-of-state law enforcement agency and a photo identification; provided, that if no valid commission card and photo identification are retained, then it shall be unlawful for that officer to carry firearms in this state and the provisions of this section shall not apply. The defense provided by this subdivision (a)(10) shall only be applicable if the state where the out-of-state officer is employed has entered into a reciprocity agreement with this state that allows a full-time, commissioned law enforcement officer in Tennessee to lawfully carry or possess a weapon in the other state.

[Oh Shoot]

Yep.

 

Just note however that you do not have an automatic presumption of reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury outside the walls of your home, where you can't use deadly force on a mere trespasser or even thief or vandal. (porches are sort of gray, depending on type best I remember without looking it up)

 

- OS

Edited October 15, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[peejman]

... and you cannot be charged with illegal possession of a handgun if you've used it for legal self-defense, regardless of location or HCP status.  There's a specific exemption for that in the law. 

Edited October 15, 2013 by peejman

[Dolomite_supafly]

You cannot use deadly force to protect property. If someone already has stolen your property and is leaving you cannot shoot them. Or if someone is trying to steal your property you cannot shoot them. You can use whatever means needed to protect your property except deadly force or the threat of deadly force. Now if they escalate to deadly force while you are trying to protect your property then you can meet force with force. But if you find someone on your property you cannot shoot them unless they are a threat to your life or someone else's life, even if they have bypassed your gate or crossed fences.

 

If you are in your house and someone is trying to break in it doesn't automatically give you the right to shoot. Now if they are in the house and you are in fear for your life then you can shoot. Do not shoot from inside your home at anyone who is outside unless they are firing at you.

 

Up until they enter your residence the only crime they have committed is trespassing which is not justification for the use of deadly force.

 

You want to avoid conflicts at all cost and defuse them at the lowest level as possible. Shooting someone should be the absolutely last resort when all others have failed. Even if the shoot is justified you are going to find yourself in a place you don't want to be, both mentally and financially. The bad guy's family can sue you and it will cost you thousands to defend yourself. I know a justified shooting excempts someone from beind sued but it still takes a court hearing to get the case thrown out and anyone who goes to court on something serious without an attorney is asking for trouble. And imagine in the off chance the authorities think it was not justified, that can cost you a lot more than money.

 

99% of the time just yelling at a bad guy that the cops are on their way will make them flea.

[peejman]

...  99% of the time just yelling at a bad guy that the cops are on their way will make them flea.

 

 

The world needs more Flea...

 

Edited October 15, 2013 by peejman

[Randall53]

wonder what Dude is playing on his Geetar? My Dog Has Fleas maybe? LOL.

[McGarrett]

I think the others have covered the issues concerning self defense and hcp. I was just going to add that you might consider a no trespassing sign at the gate. In the event someone is on your property this would aid law enforcement in charging the trespasser. It also might act as a deterrent.

 

I have a neighbor who has just went through an incident where a neighbor came on to her property and threatened her and after she left he went back on her property and killed her puppy that was in a kennel. 

[tnguy]

Nah, he's not The Dude, he's a German nihilist.

 

Edited October 15, 2013 by tnguy

[Wyldk2]

There was an incident a couple weeks ago here in Tullahoma where a resident shot and killed one 17 year old kid and wounded a 38 year old man. The 73 year old resident said he was in fear for his life. Both of the victims were outside the house, but there was a broken window with glass inside the residence.

 

So far the resident has not been charged pending investigation.

[Oh Shoot]

There was an incident a couple weeks ago here in Tullahoma where a resident shot and killed one 17 year old kid and wounded a 38 year old man. The 73 year old resident said he was in fear for his life. Both of the victims were outside the house, but there was a broken window with glass inside the residence.

 

So far the resident has not been charged pending investigation.

 

Yep, YMMV depending on circumstances, and besides actual facts of the encounter,  those circumstances may include the chief LEO's or DA's agenda.

 

- OS

[Guest ashleyhawkins38134]

Thank you all so much for the help. My hand gun carry permit class basically went over gun safety, etc.  I had googled this information, but I needed it broken down into laymen's terms. :) 

[Vistar]

^{Now, let's address the topic title. The 22 in home for self-defense may seem like a good idea, but you may want to scale up to a cartridge that's a little more reliable. My FTF rate with 22's is all over the place depending on ammo manufacturer and powder load. Even the best don't always go bang. That said, I have yet to have a 9mm FTF or stovepipe, not that they will be perfect. If my home defense depended on one weapon, it would be a maintained 12 ga pump with plenty of wing shooting break in time.}

Edited October 15, 2013 by Vistar

[DaveTN]

Think on a grander scale (in case you travel). Would a reasonable person (that means a jury; not you) believe they were in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm? That is pretty much the test in all of the states I am aware of.

 

If the word immediate or the seriousness of the threat becomes an issue; you may find yourself in criminal court.

 

Somewhere along the line some folks got the idea that some laws created free fire zones. They decided to start using the words Castle Doctrine. Guess how long that term has been around. It doesn’t give you a free pass to kill someone in your home; it is a principal that removes the duty to retreat and assumes you are acting in self-defense. If a Prosecutor has evidence that can show you were not acting in self-defense he can use that to remove that assumption.

 

Bottom line is if you are protecting yourself from a real threat you will probably be okay. If the person is running away or you are protecting property; you may have a problem. There are not (legally) any free fire zones.

 

Of course every case Is different, and people will see them differently.

[Wheelgunner]

^{Now, let's address the topic title. The 22 in home for self-defense may seem like a good idea, but you may want to scale up to a cartridge that's a little more reliable. My FTF rate with 22's is all over the place depending on ammo manufacturer and powder load. Even the best don't always go bang. That said, I have yet to have a 9mm FTF or stovepipe, not that they will be perfect. If my home defense depended on one weapon, it would be a maintained 12 ga pump with plenty of wing shooting break in time.}

I agree that a 12 gauge is generally a much better choice for home defense than a .22.  And Vistar, you're right about .22 ammo being more finicky than other calibers.  That being said, it's possible the OP already did his caliber cost/benefit analysis and determined that his needs are best met by the .22 LR caliber.  

 

In that case, I would advise him to get a double action revolver in .22.  That way, even if he has a FTF his weapon will stay in the fight.  And if he's using a .22 for self defense, he'll probably need several rounds, so he'll want a revolver with a high capacity.  The Smith and Wesson 617 comes to mind - it's DA and holds 10 rounds.  Also there's the Taurus 94, another DA that holds 9 rounds I think.  I would think long and hard, though, before choosing a squirrel and rabbit caliber to defend against 200 lbs bad guys.

[kieefer]

Joe Biden recommends a shotgun so it must be a good idea.  :D

 

Ran across the video on the .22.... for your entertainment.

 

http://youtu.be/OUM1r_444CY

[Guest ashleyhawkins38134]

I also have 9 MM KEL TEK. It doesn't seem to be as accurate as the 22. I think I need carry it to a shop and have it looked over.

[jgradyc]

First, welcome to TGO. It's a nice group of people and a very good forum. Forgive me, but it sounds like you might not be too knowledgeable about guns for use in home defense, so let me add a few points you might not have considered.

 

In a secluded area, there are times when you might go outside to check out a strange noise. In those circumstances, you need a long gun because if you go outside and find yourself needing a gun, it's likely to be dark and your target is likely to be more than 30 feet away.  Hitting a target in the dark at greater than 30 feet is a much greater challenge with a handgun than a rifle or shotgun.

 

I would suggest a shotgun as your primary home defense weapon and a 40 caliber semiauto(s) as backup. I'm a small guy and my wife has arthritis. I settled on a 410 Circuit Judge shotgun. Basically, it's a 5 shot revolver action with a long barrel and a short shotgun stock loaded with home defense rounds. I chose it over a 12 gauge because I think I can fire it, acquire a second target, and fire again faster than I could with a 12 gauge pump. If I just need to go outside to see what someone is doing on the road, I might grab a 40 cal in a clip on holster to stick discretely on my hip before walking down to see what's going on. 

 

Also, I've never been a fan in owning only one gun, or only two guns, or only three guns. Unless you have a gun on your person at all times, it might not be close when you need it. Guns don't depreciate very much, so having $500 in a good used handgun or shotgun is about the same as having $500 in the bank... provided you don't need that $500!  If you live in a two story house and keep your handgun by your bedside, what happens if someone breaks in while you're downstairs?  "Umm, WAIT!!! I have to go up and get my gun!"  I personally don't like to be more than 5 seconds away from a loaded gun at all times. I know it sounds paranoid, but nothing makes you feel more impotent than hearing a noise and having to scramble all over the house to get your gun. Of course, I don't have kids. If I had kids, I'd have to rethink my approach. (By the way, I had a cousin who was killed in a home invasion about 4 years ago. The investigation indicated he was trying to get to his gun when he was killed. If he had a gun closer, or on his person, he might have survived.)

 

Again, welcome to TGO!  Feel free to post any questions. We'll do our best to provide multiple opinions!

[jgradyc]

I just logged in to see if there were any additional posts... and I had another thought.

 

In secluded areas (rural, I assume), you might investigate a noise that turns out to be a four-legged predator (a coyote) that needs to be permanently removed. My neighbor has an outdoor cat, we have docile turkeys and raccoons that we'd like to keep around. If a coyote shows up at 30 yards, you're not going to hit it with a 9mm Kel Tec and probably not with a 22 pistol. For that, you need a shotgun with buckshot or a 22 rifle at a minimum.  Or, you might find a rattlesnake by your kid's sandbox. Or, you might find a rabid raccoon.  Ask some questions here. Then, go to a gun show. Buy a used shotgun for $200-$300, keep it until you no longer need it, sell it for what you paid for it. You can get a decent used pump shotgun for $200-$350.  The Circuit Judge I bought (used) only costs $459 at WalMart.

[Guest Wesley33]

 I personally don't like to be more than 5 seconds away from a loaded gun at all times. I know it sounds paranoid, but nothing makes you feel more impotent than hearing a noise and having to scramble all over the house to get your gun. Of course, I don't have kids. If I had kids, I'd have to rethink my approach. (By the way, I had a cousin who was killed in a home invasion about 4 years ago. The investigation indicated he was trying to get to his gun when he was killed. If he had a gun closer, or on his person, he might have survived.)

 

Again, welcome to TGO!  Feel free to post any questions. We'll do our best to provide multiple opinions!

I do have kids around the house and it is a little more challenging to have guns within reach at all times, but not something that can't be done. As the kids got old enough to walk, I just purchased a few more small gun safes and strategically placed them around the house that affords me or my wife easy access in the event that we need them. The kids hardly know they exist and even then they don't have the combo. Granted, it may take me a couple extra seconds to either swipe my fingerprint or punch in a quick code, but I sleep better at night knowing that my kids cannot access them and I don't have to run upstairs to my room to get a weapon if someone is trying to break into my house.