FFL Carries Responsibility for Selling New, Defective Gun?

[a plinkin]

Friends, I need some help. Does an FFL bear any responsibility if he sells you a new gun that turns out to be defective?

We were at the gun show in Cleveland last weekend and the wife had a gleem in her eye for the .357 Ruger LCR. Next I see her, she's got the factory-sealed box tucked under her arm. RED FLAG! "Um, you didn't buy that without inspecting first?" I ask. She says she couldn't open the box until it was outside, then the pistol could be disabled at the door and brought back in, if needed. Those were the rules. Of course by then, it was bought.

But we both soon forgot about it and drove away. After the bad experience with the last new Ruger she bought, can't believe it, but we did.

So we get it home and find the cylinder release barely works. Flipping it over and inspecting with a loop, I find the slot in the retaining screw head partially stripped in both directions, and it's been staked. There are four LCRs in the extended family: None of them -- including a .357 -- look like this. Even if the gun worked perfectly, this is shoddy workmanship. Sold at a discount, even -- as a refurb or whatever -- this gun would still be a problem due to the marginal release mechanism. How does Ruger let a junker like this out the door packaaged as NEW??

Anyways, she calls the FFL (from whom it was bought) and he tells her to bring it over, which she does. Much to our relief, he agrees that it is defective. But when she asks for her money back -- since there are no replacement guns available -- he starts dancing around: It can be taken to a gunsmith and "smoothed out." It can be sent back to Ruger for rework.

MORE REWORK? Gunsmith? For a NEW gun? WTH? Am I the one out-of-line here, thinking that "new" means "NEW"?

Well, she let him talk her into letting him send it back. So in the meanwhile, for the better part of $600, she has nothing. And you don't even want to see her if they return it with that boogered-up screw assembly still on.

So what I want to know is: In these kinds of situations, how firm is the ground under the buyer? Can a demand for refund be made, and a complaint filed against the FFL if it's not given? (And in the case of a return/refund, is there a standard way to unlink the buyer's name from the S/N of that gun in the state's database?)

It's clear that at least some of the risk is borne by the buyer when the purchase takes place at a venue that prohibits pre-purchase inspection, but when the product is found to be defective (even when it's a gun), shouldn't the buyer be able to get a refund?
 

[dcloudy777]

I don't think the seller has any legal obligation (he certainly has a moral one, and should help make it right).  However, the factory sealed box is bad news... the FFL logged the gun into his books without verifying the serial number on the actual gun.  It's rare, but I have seen box serial #s and gun serial #s that didn't match from the factory. 

[TrickyNicky]

The FFL should be willing to help make things right. Which he is by sending into the factory IMO.

As to the state data base question, TN hasn't got a state database so nothing to worry over on that.

I'd sit tight and give Ruger a call later this week, explain the situation to them so they know exactly what they're looking for, they should take care of you.

[ted]

That's the reason I buy from local gun shops and support them don't have that kinda problem, let it be a lesson learned . All you can do now is call the factory and see if thay will fix the gun . Edited October 9, 2013 by ted

[pcrc11]

I think you are missing the point. Your wife was looking at a gun and when you turned away she bought it? Where exactly do you find a woman like that? Please, tell us!!!

[bersaguy]

I called a buddy of mine that is an FFL dealer and he said that he never sells a gun without opening the factory sealed box and comparing serial numbers to the box and gun. He says some dealers are lazy about doing it because once opened they are required to place tie wrap around trigger guard showing the numbers match. He also said he is quite confident that Ruger will stand behind the gun and if it cannot be fixed they will send a new gun as replacement. He said he has had nothing but great service with any issue of guns and Ruger not standing behind them. He said it might take 6-8 weeks but they should make it good..... :popcorn: :popcorn:

[Sam1]

I don't think the seller has any legal obligation (he certainly has a moral one, and should help make it right).  However, the factory sealed box is bad news... the FFL logged the gun into his books without verifying the serial number on the actual gun.  It's rare, but I have seen box serial #s and gun serial #s that didn't match from the factory. 

 

 

+1, have never once seen a dealer log the serial number from a sticker onto the forms when selling me a gun.

[Dane]

In most states there is a 3 day have to give a refund law for any reason with normal businesses.


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[DaveTN]

The dealer might have a legal obligation to give you a refund since he sold the gun at a location other than his place of business; but it’s been more than three days so that probably doesn’t apply.

 

I wouldn’t mess with the dealer unless your wife wants a refund. If she wants to keep the gun I would send it to Ruger myself. That way you will be in communication with them and can even give written instructions on the problems.

 

Just reread your post, since the dealer is sending it in I would contact Ruger and talk with them so you don’t have any surprises when it returns and they will get the straight story on what you want.

 

[tnguy]

If she bought with a credit or debit card, you likely have additional protections. I'd just wait for Ruger to put it right. It *is* suspicious that it came through quality control in such a poor state though.

[Smith]

Devils advocate - the buyer also has an obligation to know what they are buying. If he takes back the gun he has to sell it "used" at a loss even after it is fixed by Ruger .since it left on a 4473. If you keep it and send it back or he sends it back and they fix it no one is out money. Only the frustration and wait for the return. It unfortunately is the only scenario close to a win-win.

 

That being said the box should have been opened and the gun inspected prior to selling as a good business practice. I have seen more guns than I would have thought possible damaged or in need of repairs immediately after opening the box. If he had inspected it like he was supposed to, then problem would have been averted. It you or your wife had inspected it prior to buying it, problem would have been averted.

[TrickyNicky]

I'm with Smith too, the only times I've never checked where when I was dealing with reputable shops. It probably helps that I buy through TGO vendors 98.99% of the time. In this case though it sounds like the OPs hands were tied on inspecting it due to gun show rules. Just another reason I don't go to shows anymore.

I did have an issue with a Henry I bought from Nashville Armory a few months back. We checked it out some at the shop, we being myself and one of their sales team. Everything looked fine, got it home and it would not feed any of my 22lr or shorts. Since I have about six varieties on hand to try out I determined it wasn't being ammo picky. Called NA, they said bring it in and we'll check it out. Brought it, they looked and ended up sending it back for me. A few weeks later it was on my doorstep all fixed up.

Ruger will most likely make it right for you, you'll be out some wait time but all in all not too bad

[tnguy]

But what about online sales?

 

The seller has a responsibility to sell what they are representing as selling. This also applies to the manufacturer who was selling to the retailer. The gun should have been QAed before leaving the factory. I wouldn't expect the retailer to open a sealed box (though it's probably good practice) but they are selling to the end-customer so they are responsible for putting things right if there is something wrong. The smart customer will inspect the goods before parting with money (indeed, even with those heat-sealed packages, I will sometimes open them before I get to the checkout if I know I fully intend to buy what is within) but it is not an obligation.

 

Something does seem a little bit fishy though as I would believe that Ruger has decent QA and as far as I know, all guns are fired at least once before leaving the factory.

 

Those seem like some odd rules too. Every gun show I've been to, the guns are all out on top of the cases (where cases are available).

Edited October 10, 2013 by tnguy

[dlm37015]

send it back to ruger they will make it right

[TMF]

In theory the FFL should give you the option of a refund or to wait on it to come back from Ruger. I don't agree that he should be legally obligated to refund the money, but it's just poor business not to if you ask. If the dealer was up front and refused to refund under these circumstances he deserves to be outed. Sounds to me like he didnt come out and say that though. Sounds like he convinced you that sending it back to the factory was the way to go. If you really want your money back and be done with this lemon I'd let him know and ask for your money back. If he doesn't like it then he should be publicly outed for running a bad shop.

[a plinkin]

Many thanks to all who replied; great community here. Apologies for just getting back now.

While this story does have a happy ending -- the FFL sent a refund, minus background check fee -- it stands as an example of why it's important to clarify terms with any vendor (esp. firearms) BEFORE the purchase.

Never again will either of us buy a gun without both a careful inspection AND a pre-agreement on refund if found defective.

Before this experience, I'd have been open to the FFL's fix: Send back to the mfr. (Not speaking for the wife here!) But that's just not right. For a gun with potential problems, I'll buy used. When you pay for new, you should get new.

Do have to note that before reading the comments here, I was done with Ruger. But apparently this lemon is not representative of their normal standards. After a Smith & Wesson (or others), I'll give 'em another look.
 

 

I think you are missing the point. Your wife was looking at a gun and when you turned away she bought it? Where exactly do you find a woman like that? Please, tell us!!!

 

Don't know if you're a man of faith, but I believe in sometime divine intervention. And in any case, wives are a blessing. Not always in ways we prefer, or necessariy see, or fully appreciate, or...  but nonetheless.

(Whew, pulled back on the stick just in time.)