Question on Tn. handgun laws.

[Fallguy]

I think they have pretty quick access to hot gun ser#'s if they are reported stolen I have heard local leo's on the scanner call in a ser# now & then to see if it was hot but to trace it otherwise isn't going to happen during a traffic stop

Yes, you can instantly check to see if it is stolen. As others have said a trace is long and drawn out and there is no state database to use.

IF you pay them money, take a class, get fingerprinted, etc., etc. That's infringement. You don't have to pay a fee or have a background check to exercise your other Constitutional rights, such as freedom of religion, or the right to be secure against having your property seized without due process.

And if you want to use your freedom to peaceably assemble on somebody else's private property, with their permission, you can. Whereas the state prohibits the right to bear arms if that private property fits certain categories (private school, restaurant that sells alcohol, etc.). This is also infringement.

Exactly....

[Guest Revelator]

It depends on the right. You have to pay a fee to get married, and that's about as fundamental a right as they come. Want to organize a protest? You have to get permission from the government well ahead of time and even then you can do it only in certain areas. All rights are going to come with restrictions; the question is how reasonable are those restrictions? The Tennessee permit process is not unreasonable; common sense can tell you that (although they do make you wait a long time for it these days, I'm hearing).

What if an Islamic group wanted to use today--the anniversary of the terror attacks--to have a peaceful gathering in a local park to protest U.S. support of Israel. They'd have to go through the steps I just mentioned, and maybe more. Do the carry permit-haters think those restrictions should be lifted, too? Aren't their rights to assemble and be heard being infringed on?

[Fallguy]

It depends on the right. You have to pay a fee to get married, and that's about as fundamental a right as they come. Want to organize a protest? You have to get permission from the government well ahead of time and even then you can do it only in certain areas. All rights are going to come with restrictions; the question is how reasonable are those restrictions? The Tennessee permit process is not unreasonable; common sense can tell you that (although they do make you wait a long time for it these days, I'm hearing).

What if an Islamic group wanted to use today--the anniversary of the terror attacks--to have a peaceful gathering in a local park to protest U.S. support of Israel. They'd have to go through the steps I just mentioned, and maybe more. Do the carry permit-haters think those restrictions should be lifted, too? Aren't their rights to assemble and be heard being infringed on?

Yes...they are. ...and as much as many may not like it....as long they can peacefully assemble they should be allowed to without the need for a permit IMO.

I guess the "reasonable" in reasonable restrictions is open to interpretation.

[DaveTN]

I honestly don't see that as infringement. TN is a Shall Issue state. If you're aren't a criminal, they'll issue you a permit. Infringement would be not allowing us at all like Illinois or the other May Issue states.

Yes it’s infringement; you have a right or you don’t. Tennessee is no different on their interpretation of the 2nd amendment than the state of Illinois.

Illinois state courts and the 7th Federal District have ruled that the 2nd amendment is not an individual right.

Tennessee state courts and the 6th Federal District have ruled that the 2nd amendment is not an individual right.

Tennessee is selling you a privilege to make money. That is better than nothing for those that can afford to pay it; but don’t think for a second that they are recognizing it as a right.

[Guest slothful1]

It depends on the right. You have to pay a fee to get married, and that's about as fundamental a right as they come.

Maybe, but it's not an enumerated right in the Constitution. If it were, I don't think charging for it would pass judicial scrutiny.

What if an Islamic group wanted to use today--the anniversary of the terror attacks--to have a peaceful gathering in a local park to protest U.S. support of Israel. They'd have to go through the steps I just mentioned, and maybe more. Do the carry permit-haters think those restrictions should be lifted, too? Aren't their rights to assemble and be heard being infringed on?

I think so. A public park is a little different, by the way, because they are using publicly owned resources. But no, they shouldn't have to jump through any bureaucratic hoops merely to assemble and protest.

[Guest Skywarn63]

I have read once before that if a business prohibits firearms, they can't do anything if it is left in the car. But I can't find it now. Anyone know where i can find this???

[strickj]

You wont find it,but you own your car,not a business.Your property,do as you wish!

[Fallguy]

I have read once before that if a business prohibits firearms, they can't do anything if it is left in the car. But I can't find it now. Anyone know where i can find this???

You wont find it,but you own your car,not a business.Your property,do as you wish!

Legally they can even prevent you from having it in your car on their property. But they can not search your car without your permission. However they can always tell you to get your car off their lot and have it towed if you don't move it.

There was a bill introduced to allow HCP holders to be able to leave their weapon in their cars even if their employer or other business prohibited firearms....it didn't pass.

[Guest Gun Geek]

Yes it’s infringement; you have a right or you don’t. Tennessee is no different on their interpretation of the 2nd amendment than the state of Illinois.

Illinois state courts and the 7th Federal District have ruled that the 2nd amendment is not an individual right.

Tennessee state courts and the 6th Federal District have ruled that the 2nd amendment is not an individual right.

Tennessee is selling you a privilege to make money. That is better than nothing for those that can afford to pay it; but don’t think for a second that they are recognizing it as a right.

Correct me if I am wrong here but didnt the Supreme Court just rule the 2nd Amendment as an individual right. And as far as that goes doesnt Federal and Sepreme Court rulings trump state? As you can cite a federal ruling in a state case.

Also according to the Constitution, the states can enable more freedoms but cannot restrict them. As far as the Constitutional rights I mean.

Edited September 22, 2008 by Gun Geek

[Guest bkelm18]

Correct me if I am wrong here but didnt the Supreme Court just rule the 2nd Amendment as an individual right. And as far as that goes doesnt Federal and Sepreme Court rulings trump state? As you can cite a federal ruling in a state case.

Also according to the Constitution, the states can enable more freedoms but cannot restrict them. As far as the Constitutional rights I mean.

The SCOTUS ruling applied to DC, not cities or states since technically speaking DC is not a city or a state, its a district.

[Guest Gun Geek]

The SCOTUS ruling applied to DC, not cities or states since technically speaking DC is not a city or a state, its a district.

The case was filed in DC, but it had to do with the 2nd Amendment which is a Constitutional matter, and must be handled by the Supreme Court. If they ruled the 2nd Amendment as an individual right it applies to the entire country, correct?

Edited September 22, 2008 by Gun Geek

[GLOCKMEISTER]

thats the way I see it, and it also means other rights are individual rights too...

[Fallguy]

Yes, I believe the SCOTUS ruling said the 2A is an individual right.

But they also said that it is subject to "reasonable" restrictions.

The only way to answer whether registration, a carry permit or anything else is reasonable would be a lawsuit on each restriction.

I do think I understand the point that Dave is trying to make though.

[DaveTN]

Correct me if I am wrong here but didnt the Supreme Court just rule the 2nd Amendment as an individual right. And as far as that goes doesnt Federal and Sepreme Court rulings trump state? As you can cite a federal ruling in a state case.

Also according to the Constitution, the states can enable more freedoms but cannot restrict them. As far as the Constitutional rights I mean.

Do you for one moment think you have a right to possess a firearm outside your home?

As expected, the SCOTUS stopped short of a 2nd amendment ruling. They ruled that you have a right to own arms, but not bear them. They left the door wide open for any type of law a state or municipality likes.

The handgun ban is still alive and well in Chicago. Daley says the courts ruling does not apply to Chicago. If I’m not mistaken the last I heard from the Mayor and Chief of Police in DC was that everyone (including the Supreme Court) could go piss up a rope; they aren’t changing anything.

So other than a pathetic picture of Heller giving thumbs up when he got his permit to have a gun in his home, or a J-frame S&W with some 2nd amendment BS scribbled on the side of it; what have we gained?

97% of Tennessee residents would still be committing a crime if they carried a loaded gun off their property… same as before the ruling.

Illinois residents still can’t carry, and Illinois stands prepared to invoke states rights and defy the ruling if anyone tries to apply it to them. We fought a war over state rights; no one is going to fight a war over the 2nd amendment.

So… you can do all the flag waving, give Constitutional Speeches, quote people that have been dead for over 200 years, and make statements about what the government can and can’t do all day long. But at the end of the day nothing has changed. You still do not have 2nd amendments rights whether you live in Tennessee or Illinois.

Now don’t get me wrong… I don’t agree with any of this. I believe that we have a right to bear arms that comes from a higher power than the 2nd amendment. But to think that you have some right to bear arms because of this ruling is ridiculous. This has been a battle all of my adult life. I doubt that I will live long enough to see the next time the SCOUTS hears a 2nd amendment case.

[midtennchip]

The case was filed in DC, but it had to do with the 2nd Amendment which is a Constitutional matter, and must be handled by the Supreme Court. If they ruled the 2nd Amendment as an individual right it applies to the entire country, correct?

No, not necessarily. Not all of the Amendments to the Constitution have been "incorporated" to apply to the states. There's a thread in the Heller discussions where I went into detail on this issue. The SCOTUS did not specifically address whether the 2A applied to the states in Heller. The issue of Incorporation was not applicable to the DC law, so the SCOTUS really couldn't address it (that is, any statements in the decision regarding state laws would have been "dicta" and would not have the force of law).

Realistically, it appears the SCOTUS would find that the 2A applies to state laws, but we'll have to wait for another case to get a decision on that.

The Resident Lawyer

[Paletiger13]

Nice write up, thanks for making something informative. So basic, we have no rights really? I thought "The Constitution of The United States of America" was un-changeable. Is this not true? I guess laws change like undergarments.

[Guest russman37801]

I just took the carry class and the same question was posed there. From what the instructor said, no bill of sale is required. I had a carry permit back when you had to put the serial number of the gun on the permit and could only carry that gun. What a change for the better!

[towerclimber37]

But you do have to be a resident of tn to buy a gun in tn. Was on leave in Bristol yrs ago and found a pistol, good price. They wouldnt sell to me. My dad got a hell of a deal on that pistol.

Rufus, you can buy a long arm here, and not be a resident. Pistols are another matter though.

that is country wide.

[Guest Gun Geek]

No, not necessarily. Not all of the Amendments to the Constitution have been "incorporated" to apply to the states. There's a thread in the Heller discussions where I went into detail on this issue. The SCOTUS did not specifically address whether the 2A applied to the states in Heller. The issue of Incorporation was not applicable to the DC law, so the SCOTUS really couldn't address it (that is, any statements in the decision regarding state laws would have been "dicta" and would not have the force of law).

Realistically, it appears the SCOTUS would find that the 2A applies to state laws, but we'll have to wait for another case to get a decision on that.

The Resident Lawyer

I see what you are saying. But as you say we would have to wait for another case to get a decision, so who wants to be the next one to take the issue to court. I dont have that kind money but I am game.

Hey are you really a Lawyer? I only ask because I am in school right now for legal field.

[DaveS]

I bet everytime you buy a weapon in this state, your information (name, weapon type, caliber ect., ect.,) from your background check (only communist countrys require this) is kept on file with the TBI.

WD