I sad to hear we don't ally with them any more. Israel!

[Guest 6.8 AR]

And to throw deeper in the mix, there are Messianic Jews. :D

 

Christianity and Judaism aren't the same thing. I think we know that. I doubt the Jews are being held up for any

Christian beliefs and I also doubt Christians are presumptuous enough to believe otherwise. What's the point of this,

guys?

[mav]

As long as we don't turn our backs to Israel, I believe that God won't turn his back to America.

 

Being a Christian, I disagree with that comment.  I believe far too many Christians take a simplistic view of the Abrahamic covenant.  How many millions have been slaughtered in our abortion mills?  I believe God views that a lot more harshly than whether this country supports Israel militarily.

 

If people have concerns about God turning His back on this country, then they should repent and turn back to God.  A society, such as ours, that is becoming increasingly secular and hedonistic is deluding themselves by thinking they can engage in such behavior and expect God's blessing or divine intervention just because they support Israel.  It doesn't work that way.

 

I support Israel because they are a good ally.  However, I will certainly not refrain from criticism either because Israel is not perfect and has done things that I am certain that God would not approve.  One thing to keep in mind as well is Israel has a bunch of secular leftists.

[Oh Shoot]

And to throw deeper in the mix, there are Messianic Jews. :D

Well, being a Jew can simply connote lineage but generally we use it to also connote the practice of Judaism itself, as herein this discussion. Certainly the vast majority of Jews in Israel fit both connotations.
 

Christianity and Judaism aren't the same thing. I think we know that. I doubt the Jews are being held up for any
Christian beliefs and I also doubt Christians are presumptuous enough to believe otherwise. What's the point of this,
guys?

 
It's just that when Israel foreign policy comes up, I've just never really understood the typical support of the Jews from the Christian perspective, as they are just as much lost souls as any other religion as per the affirmation of the Christ as savior and all that.
 
The fact that they are constantly touted by Christians as being "God's chosen people" while admitting they're most all going to hell just sets off the ole cerebral conflict meter.
 
I fully understand our support on a global political strategy level, and perhaps the fact that Christian shrines are on their soil, but the religious support so often espoused just confounds me.
 
- OS

Edited October 3, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Guest ThePunisher]

Being a Christian, I disagree with that comment. I believe far too many Christians take a simplistic view of the Abrahamic covenant. How many millions have been slaughtered in our abortion mills? I believe God views that a lot more harshly than whether this country supports Israel militarily.

If people have concerns about God turning His back on this country, then they should repent and turn back to God. A society, such as ours, that is becoming increasingly secular and hedonistic is deluding themselves by thinking they can engage in such behavior and expect God's blessing or divine intervention just because they support Israel. It doesn't work that way.

I support Israel because they are a good ally. However, I will certainly not refrain from criticism either because Israel is not perfect and has done things that I am certain that God would not approve. One thing to keep in mind as well is Israel has a bunch of secular leftists.

I agree that God is viewing harshly the sins of America. That is likely the reason why our nation is crumbling economically, socially, and spiritually. We once were a blessed nation, but now our people have eyes but do not see, they have ears but do not hear, they have brains but do not understand. We keep wondering how communism could have sneaked into our government, and how can people be so stupid to continue voting for these tyrants to remain in office while they are destroying our country. As a nation we definitely are not receiving God's blessings like we once did. I believe America is receiving God's judgement as we peck our keyboards.

Genesis ch. 12 1-3, " And I will bless those that bless you, and will cures those that curse you. And in you shall all families of the earth be blessed."
In both the Old and New Testaments, we find all we need for eternal life and Godly living. Edited October 3, 2013 by ThePunisher

[TMF]

I think it's pretty presumptuous to assume God's intent in anything. We give Darwin awards to people who dumb things and get themselves killed, but would we attribute divine intervention to those deaths or do we simply say that stupid is as stupid does?

I guess what I'm getting at is America is destroying itself due to destructive policies and lifestyles. The same way an idiot that "knows" his gun is clear and subsequently removed himself from the gene pool through his own stupidity. I hardly think that is some sort of divine punitive measure; just stupid acts leading to stupid results.

[Mike.357]

why would God give 2 sh;ts about the USA ?

[RED333]

why would God give 2 sh;ts about the USA ?

God does not, but I believe that God cares about the people.

[Guest ThePunisher]

America has been the "shining city on a hill" that is somewhat analogous to what Jesus said about being light of the world. Our nation has been blessed by God throughout our history, but I believe our light is beginning to dim.

[Daniel]

I'm surprised they haven't used their nuke yet. Pretty much all Arab countries are a clear and present danger to Israel.

The people of Iran aren't Arabs.

[Guest ThePunisher]

I think it's pretty presumptuous to assume God's intent in anything.

The Old and New Testament clearly reveals God's intent in dealing with punishment of sin, and rewarding the righteous way of life. We don't have to assume anything because reading the Bible gives us revelation about God's intent and plan for all of us. The study and reading of God's word brings light and understanding to us instead of us going through life dull and not fulfilling our God given talents. People don't have to live all their life being stupid. God can certainly lift the veil of stupidity hanging around someone's head, but first they just have to turn to God. God's hand is in this world each and every day, but most people are blind to God's devine plan. Edited October 3, 2013 by ThePunisher

[TMF]

The Old and New Testament clearly reveals God's intent in dealing with punishment of sin, and rewarding the righteous way of life. We don't have to assume anything because reading the Bible gives us revelation about God's intent and plan for all of us. The study and reading of God's word brings light and understanding to us instead of us going through life dull and not fulfilling our God given talents. People don't have to live all their life being stupid. God can certainly lift the veil of stupidity hanging around someone's head, but first they just have to turn to God. God's hand is in this world each and every day, but most people are blind to God's devine plan.

 

The point I'm making is that people are often claiming to know God's intentions and will beyond what is in the Bible, and they do so by interpreting events to suit their opinions.  For example, the Westboro Baptist Church claims that "God hates fags" and therefore equate the deaths of US military servicemembers as God's wrath for society condoning homosexuality.  It's rediculous.  Gay sex may be a sin in the Bible, but when you attribute events to divine intervention on behalf of scripture you are now attempting to speak for God.  It's no different than if I just randomly pick an innocent person suffering from cancer and say they are suffering God's wrath because of the sins of our country.  Who the f*** am I to speak for God?  I'm sure if He has something to say, He'll say it Himself.

[Guest Bassman17SC]

America has been the "shining city on a hill" that is somewhat analogous to what Jesus said about being light of the world. Our nation has been blessed by God throughout our history, but I believe our light is beginning to dim.

Sadly, we need to change the light bulb, because the past 5 years or so has dimmed it.  Getting back on topic, this Administration seems to be acting like "opposite George" in regards to Middle East policy.  

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Well, being a Jew can simply connote lineage but generally we use it to also connote the practice of Judaism itself, as herein this discussion. Certainly the vast majority of Jews in Israel fit both connotations.
 

 
It's just that when Israel foreign policy comes up, I've just never really understood the typical support of the Jews from the Christian perspective, as they are just as much lost souls as any other religion as per the affirmation of the Christ as savior and all that.
 
The fact that they are constantly touted by Christians as being "God's chosen people" while admitting they're most all going to hell just sets off the ole cerebral conflict meter.
 
I fully understand our support on a global political strategy level, and perhaps the fact that Christian shrines are on their soil, but the religious support so often espoused just confounds me.
 
- OS

I guess that is as good an answer as any I've ever heard, Mac. I don't claim to have any great knowledge about the Jews,

except for the lineage from them to Christianity. That is my link to supporting them. I know very little of the practice of Judaism. I

will choose to be on their side of the battle if there is a choice, though.

 

The one thing I am not, is a religious scholar, but I do think there are religious scholars who would gladly make the case.

I'm also one who believes my actions will cause my deposit into Heaven or Hell, depending on much greater things than

I am capable of understanding.

 

But I'll go out on a limb and say that a lot of the support for Israel, other than the geopolitical reasons, are the close ties

bonded from the  beliefs between the two religions and that many Christians will support the roots of their religion. That

tends to make religion and politics joined at the hip. So, yes, there is one side saying jihad(holy war) and the other

confirming it. That's as far as my depth on the subject can go.

 

I also smelled a religious fight brewing around here. Something that I didn't intend with my thread.

[TMF]

If anything, our support for Israel should simply be because its the right thing to do. They've been invaded multiple times by their neighbors and one state in the region seeks to wipe them from the earth. They remain one of the few allies we can keep from being invaded again without ever worrying about committing troops. However, if we turned our back on Israel tomorrow, they would not last long. Unlike countries such as Kuwait, Israel doesn't expect us to do the fighting for them; they just need someone in their corner. To abandon them would be dishonorable, in my opinion.

A more simple reason is that very evil people want to destroy Israel. We should not stand by and let evil terrorize the free world, especially when we expected, and got, so much support from the international community after 9/11.

[jcoosi]

So no Jew ever goes to hell? Even though the same Good Book says anyone who doesn't take Jesus as his personal savior does indeed go there when they die?

 

Or only the ones that happen to be alive at the time of Christ's return win the Heaven Lottery, or what?

 

-OS

 

From what I read only a 3rd of the Jews will be saved in the end. I will have to find it its in Revelations.

 

During the Rapture the dead in Christ will be called up from the grave and the living believers will join also. This will start the Tribulation period of 7 yrs. During this time the ones called up will be judged.

 

According to the The Bible in the end times there will be 10 nations and this is when the true antichrist will appear on the scene.

[mav]

The point I'm making is that people are often claiming to know God's intentions and will beyond what is in the Bible, and they do so by interpreting events to suit their opinions.  For example, the Westboro Baptist Church claims that "God hates fags" and therefore equate the deaths of US military servicemembers as God's wrath for society condoning homosexuality.  It's rediculous.  Gay sex may be a sin in the Bible, but when you attribute events to divine intervention on behalf of scripture you are now attempting to speak for God.  It's no different than if I just randomly pick an innocent person suffering from cancer and say they are suffering God's wrath because of the sins of our country.  Who the f*** am I to speak for God?  I'm sure if He has something to say, He'll say it Himself.

 

Please do not use Westboro as an example.  There is absolute nothing Christian about them, and it has been proven that these clowns are nothing more than scam artists who push people's buttons in the hope of getting a confrontation that will eventually lead to a lawsuit.  Using Westboro as an example is not only highly offensive, it also furthers the narrative suggested by some that Christians are hateful and evil people.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

Regarding God's will, it is my belief that God is not a micromanager.  He has given us free will and oftentimes He just lets things play out.  A small child that dies of cancer is not God's will.  It is just a tragic part of life that at times bad things happen to very good people.  The same could be said of a man that accidentally kills himself while cleaning his gun.  He did something stupid, and unfortunately, he paid the ultimate price for it.

 

A married man that cheats on his wife and has unprotected sex with hundreds of prostitutes and eventually dies from AIDS, was that God's punishment for adultery and fornication?  Maybe, but it could also be just like the example above.  Someone did something incredibly stupid and paid a price for it.  Life is hard without any guarantees.

 

All that said, do I believe that God acts on behalf of individuals/countries to either bless or give out punishment?  Most certainly.  However, I do not believe everything is divine intervention.  As I stated earlier, I do not believe God is a micromanager.  I would also add that I have no idea when things are a chance occurrence in life or divine intervention.  Honestly, it doesn't matter either way.  It has absolutely no bearing on the fact that I am a sinner saved solely by His grace.

[TMF]

Please do not use Westboro as an example. There is absolute nothing Christian about them, and it has been proven that these clowns are nothing more than scam artists who push people's buttons in the hope of getting a confrontation that will eventually lead to a lawsuit. Using Westboro as an example is not only highly offensive, it also furthers the narrative suggested by some that Christians are hateful and evil people. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Regarding God's will, it is my belief that God is not a micromanager. He has given us free will and oftentimes He just lets things play out. A small child that dies of cancer is not God's will. It is just a tragic part of life that at times bad things happen to very good people. The same could be said of a man that accidentally kills himself while cleaning his gun. He did something stupid, and unfortunately, he paid the ultimate price for it.

A married man that cheats on his wife and has unprotected sex with hundreds of prostitutes and eventually dies from AIDS, was that God's punishment for adultery and fornication? Maybe, but it could also be just like the example above. Someone did something incredibly stupid and paid a price for it. Life is hard without any guarantees.

All that said, do I believe that God acts on behalf of individuals/countries to either bless or give out punishment? Most certainly. However, I do not believe everything is divine intervention. As I stated earlier, I do not believe God is a micromanager. I would also add that I have no idea when things are a chance occurrence in life or divine intervention. Honestly, it doesn't matter either way. It has absolutely no bearing on the fact that I am a sinner saved solely by His grace.

Don't misinterpret me bringing up WBC as to be insulting. It was to make a point about how ridiculous it is to claim to know what God's intentions are when things around us happen. I could have just as easily used Muslims who do the same as an example, it's just the "God hates fags" crowd is more recognizable in their assertion they know God's intention. For me, it's nails on a chalkboard when anyone does it. I don't think one can refute another's belief when they feel a divine hand intervene in their own lives, as no one knows what that person experienced, but to say that you know when God is intervening in the lives of others, especially people you don't even know, is BS. A person who claims to know God's intent when an earthquake hits San Francisco should just as easily be able to SPECIFICALLY explain to me God's intent when a 5 year old dies of cancer.

[Guest ThePunisher]

One thing that I believe that was of divine intervention by God and was prophesied by Isaiah in the Bible, was the rebirth of Israel as a statehood in one single day on May 14, 1948. It's proof for modern day believers of fulfilled Bible prophesy. This is something I believe and confirms my faith in God.

[JAB]

As long as we don't turn our backs to Israel, I believe that God won't turn his back to America. The nations that curse Israel will be nations that are cursed. All the nations to the north of Israel including Russia and Turkey will line up their military strength against Israel to slaughter Israel, but God will intervene for Israel and destroy those nations militaries as it will take seven months to bury the bones of the dead.

 

I do not wish to sound disrespectful to you or your beliefs.  It is just that, as someone who adopts a much more Deist viewpoint (no, Deists were NOT simply another faction of Christianity - where that falsehood got started I will never know), I believe that the Creator is just that - the Creator.  He (It, if you want to get technical as I do not believe the Creator has a physical body and, therefore, has no gender) Created the Universe, set it in motion and doesn't waste Its time dickering around with something that It got right in the first place.  Just as It didn't protect the passengers on that church bus who were killed in the accident on I-40 yesterday and just as It doesn't protect the people who are killed in Its own houses of worship during church shootings and just as It does not protect the hundreds - even thousands - of innocents, including Its own believers who are subjected to brutality on a daily basis, It is not protecting Israel.  Devoting resources that our country needs to the support of another country, including Israel, just because of some myth that was conceived thousands of years ago by the benefactors of that, very myth - the so-called 'chosen' people, themselves, is one of the very best arguments for not allowing religious beliefs to dictate national policy that I have ever heard.

Edited October 3, 2013 by JAB