Lessons learned on a PSA SS 16inch upper

[jcluff]

I finished building my first lower receiver a couple of weeks ago and added a PSA SHQ 13 stainless steel 16in upper that includes a 13.5" SQR Hybrid Free Float rail. All told, I spent about $875 putting it together. After feeling proud of myself for completing this task without marring up the Phase 5 lower much I decided to take it to the range. So, I grabbed 10 rounds of black hills 69gr OTM, 10 rounds of HPR 60gr VMAX, and 10 rounds of HPR 75gr BTHP and a box couple boxes of hand loads and PMC 55gr fmj.

I setup at Charlie Haffner's rifle lane and used about 5 rounds to sight in the gun and 50 yards and the preceeded to shoot 5 rounds of black hills 69gr at the target setup 100 yards out. Looking through the scope, the group appeared to be just over an inch in size. Things were really tight .5inches or so till the 5th round. I shrugged that off and loaded up 5 rounds of 60gr HPR. Those seemed to group just under an inch. Then the 75gr HPR. Ugh.. That was easily 2 inches or more. So I went back to the black hills and fired my remaining 5 rounds. What?? 2.5 inch group? Really?

Fine... Time for the 60 grain. 2 inch group. Now I am feeling frustrated. I try some of my hand loads. 77gr nosler with 23gr ar comp. 3 inch group.

Completely frustrated and flustered, I pack up and go home. There I give the rifles upper a good cleaning, and continue to do so till the patches come out quite clean. I also replace the springs in my QMS trigger with JP springs and bring the trigger pull to a crisp, clean 5.5 lb pull.

The following week, I hit the stones river range on Friday (yesterday), after work, and preceed to shoot some more. There, I noticed that my first group with the 60gr vmax were just over an inch, but by 30 minutes, I am shooting hand loads and pulling 3.5 and even 4 inch groups. 4 inches with 5 Tula rounds, just to see. Now I am quite frustrated and feeling it may be time to dump the upper or contact PSA and ask them for some pointers on what I might be doing wrong. I pack up my rifle and noted that my hand guard was warm to the touch.

At home I give my barrel another thorough cleaning and as I am cleaning it, the warm hand guard continues to wheedle at the back of my mind. Saturday morning (today) I wake up with an idea and a mission. Being an IT guy, I know that computers that heat can do weird things to electronics, and usually one can identify heat related issues by noticing that computer performance degrades over time as the PC is running. Pllying this to my rifle, and with a bit of googling, I began to theorize that my stainless steel barrel is likely more susceptible to performance degradation than my Sig M400 enhanced chrome moly chrome lined barrel and that this is the reason for my performance issues.

I pack up and make a trip to mount Juliet, were I pick up some match grade ammo at Academy and Reloader's Bench and head back to stones river to test my theory before I dump my upper.

Sitting at lane six, I un-case my rifle, line up my various boxes of ammo and setup a stopwatch on my phone. My plan; shoot 5 round groups, however, to test my theory that heat has been my issue, I will let the barrel cool for 30 seconds or more after 3 rounds and then fire the remaining 2 rounds.

First three rounds I sight the gun in with the third round nailing the bullseye. Now for the black hills. 5 rounds at 50 yards (windy and I wanted to minimize its affect on the rounds) .43 inches. Double that and we are still under 1 inch. NICE. Next up, HPR 60gr vmax. 5 rounds, .45 inches. WOOT. Then the HPR 75gr. 5 rounds 1.6 inches. YIKES! Alright, now for some of the new stuff I just picked up. Hornady 55gr vmax .56 inches. Not terrible, not great, but acceptable. How about the 75gr Hornady vmax performance (the slower of the two on the market). .49 inches. Sub MOA. Since my goal was sub MOA, I am pleased. PMC precision 75 gr, this stuff is expensive at $1.5 a round. .96 inches. Crap! Finally, my 69gr hand loads with 25gr BLC2. .38 inches. What?!? Excellent!

So, lesson learned. Pay attention to the heat when precision shooting. Sub MOA AR for sub $1000. I am pleased and I haven't even started load development. With some luck/patients and methodical attention to detail I summize I can dial this down to nearly .5 MOA.

tl;dr - let the barrel cool more often when shooting my new upper and I will get rewarded with sub moa groups, which was my goal.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[hipower]

As a novice at AR shooting, I really appreciate your story. That kind of information surely will help.

[RED333]

I have a Saiga in .308, it will shoot well for 10rounds, then starts to "walk"

the rounds down and to the right about 5 inchs at 300 yards.

That is where it stays till the barrel cools.

Know you firearm if you want to stay on target.

[LawEnforcementSalesTN]

Yessir... cold bore shots definitely different.  I have a $10k bolt action Accuracy International rifle.  My groups start to open up around 15-20 shots in.  But, the rifle is configured as a covert rifle (short barrel, suppressed).  So being fair to it, it was designed for a very specific purpose and does that very well ... those 1st 5-10 shots almost in the same freaking hole!!!  sure they could be from someone who shoots a whole lot better than me ;o) 

[Garufa]

Thanks for sharing your results.  Barrel heat is the number one enemy to accuracy and you have illustrated that very well.

[jcluff]

I just hope others can learn from my experiences and save themselves some frustration.

Also, the fledgling writer in me cringed, a lot, when I reread my post. Sorry for the mix of past and present tense as well as the other spelling and grammar mistakes :-).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[musicman]

It was fun shooting next to you today! I was curious what you were doing with the phone. :-) After you left I finally shot a FABULOUS 4 shot group with the 270. I didn't measure it with a ruler or anything, but when I took the paper down and looked closely, it couldn't have more than 1.25". I'm guessing right between 1-1.25 center to center. For me, that was great! It was two sets of touching holes with just a tiny space between the pairs.

I couldn't get the 10/22 to hardly do anything out there at 100 yds. :-( Found out the base of the rear scope mount kept working loose... that's what I get for buying cheap junk. Trigger work, scope, and rings for that gun are on the short list now.

Oh, after I was done rifle shooting, I bought another 2 hours for handgunning. After that I had lunch, went home and picked up a couple other shotguns and headed out to shoot skeet for the next 3 hours with some church buddies, followed by a steak dinner at Demo's in Mboro. It was absolutely a PERFECT day! And the sore shoulder is totally worth!! ;-)

Anyways, I'm really glad you got the rifle dialed in and figured out! You were pretty frustrated there for a bit... I know the feeling! Hope to see you in the range again sometime.

[jcluff]

It was quite enjoyable shooting next to you. Definitely broke up the monotony of waiting for my barrel to cool down.

Thanks again for letting me try out the 10/22 and the 270.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Guest tdoccrossvilletn]

I finished building my first lower receiver a couple of weeks ago and added a PSA SHQ 13 stainless steel 16in upper that includes a 13.5" SQR Hybrid Free Float rail. All told, I spent about $875 putting it together. After feeling proud of myself for completing this task without marring up the Phase 5 lower much I decided to take it to the range. So, I grabbed 10 rounds of black hills 69gr OTM, 10 rounds of HPR 60gr VMAX, and 10 rounds of HPR 75gr BTHP and a box couple boxes of hand loads and PMC 55gr fmj.

I setup at Charlie Haffner's rifle lane and used about 5 rounds to sight in the gun and 50 yards and the preceeded to shoot 5 rounds of black hills 69gr at the target setup 100 yards out. Looking through the scope, the group appeared to be just over an inch in size. Things were really tight .5inches or so till the 5th round. I shrugged that off and loaded up 5 rounds of 60gr HPR. Those seemed to group just under an inch. Then the 75gr HPR. Ugh.. That was easily 2 inches or more. So I went back to the black hills and fired my remaining 5 rounds. What?? 2.5 inch group? Really?

Fine... Time for the 60 grain. 2 inch group. Now I am feeling frustrated. I try some of my hand loads. 77gr nosler with 23gr ar comp. 3 inch group.

Completely frustrated and flustered, I pack up and go home. There I give the rifles upper a good cleaning, and continue to do so till the patches come out quite clean. I also replace the springs in my QMS trigger with JP springs and bring the trigger pull to a crisp, clean 5.5 lb pull.

The following week, I hit the stones river range on Friday (yesterday), after work, and preceed to shoot some more. There, I noticed that my first group with the 60gr vmax were just over an inch, but by 30 minutes, I am shooting hand loads and pulling 3.5 and even 4 inch groups. 4 inches with 5 Tula rounds, just to see. Now I am quite frustrated and feeling it may be time to dump the upper or contact PSA and ask them for some pointers on what I might be doing wrong. I pack up my rifle and noted that my hand guard was warm to the touch.

At home I give my barrel another thorough cleaning and as I am cleaning it, the warm hand guard continues to wheedle at the back of my mind. Saturday morning (today) I wake up with an idea and a mission. Being an IT guy, I know that computers that heat can do weird things to electronics, and usually one can identify heat related issues by noticing that computer performance degrades over time as the PC is running. Pllying this to my rifle, and with a bit of googling, I began to theorize that my stainless steel barrel is likely more susceptible to performance degradation than my Sig M400 enhanced chrome moly chrome lined barrel and that this is the reason for my performance issues.

I pack up and make a trip to mount Juliet, were I pick up some match grade ammo at Academy and Reloader's Bench and head back to stones river to test my theory before I dump my upper.

Sitting at lane six, I un-case my rifle, line up my various boxes of ammo and setup a stopwatch on my phone. My plan; shoot 5 round groups, however, to test my theory that heat has been my issue, I will let the barrel cool for 30 seconds or more after 3 rounds and then fire the remaining 2 rounds.

First three rounds I sight the gun in with the third round nailing the bullseye. Now for the black hills. 5 rounds at 50 yards (windy and I wanted to minimize its affect on the rounds) .43 inches. Double that and we are still under 1 inch. NICE. Next up, HPR 60gr vmax. 5 rounds, .45 inches. WOOT. Then the HPR 75gr. 5 rounds 1.6 inches. YIKES! Alright, now for some of the new stuff I just picked up. Hornady 55gr vmax .56 inches. Not terrible, not great, but acceptable. How about the 75gr Hornady vmax performance (the slower of the two on the market). .49 inches. Sub MOA. Since my goal was sub MOA, I am pleased. PMC precision 75 gr, this stuff is expensive at $1.5 a round. .96 inches. Crap! Finally, my 69gr hand loads with 25gr BLC2. .38 inches. What?!? Excellent!

So, lesson learned. Pay attention to the heat when precision shooting. Sub MOA AR for sub $1000. I am pleased and I haven't even started load development. With some luck/patients and methodical attention to detail I summize I can dial this down to nearly .5 MOA.

tl;dr - let the barrel cool more often when shooting my new upper and I will get rewarded with sub moa groups, which was my goal.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Dude if you wanted a sniper rifle you should have built a sniper rifle not an AR. Why do you need accuracy like that out of an ar? Are you planning on shooting competetively? If so I can understand if not I don't.

Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Make sure you are not shooting from a bipod or off a hard surface. Those two things can increase the groups sizes.

 

The groups you were getting initially are typical for most AR's. And there is nothing wrong with it because they are battle rifles where if they shoot minute of bad guy they are good. Even the 4" groups from Tula are minute of bad guy out to 400 yards. Having a gun that shoots 2"-3" during rapid fire is not bad, in fact it is very good

 

Heat related drift is all about concentricity of the barrel around the bore. If the barrel is a little thinner on one side then that side grows faster than the thick side and causes the barrel to bend slightly. This can result in the bullet impacts shifting. If you are lucky the shift will be up but in most cases it is not. It is possible to improve the shift if it is really bad but requires removing material from the outside of the barrel as it is spun on the axis of the bore. The fix may be dramatic or it may not fix it by much but it will fix it. The reason a high quality barrel costs more is they take more time to ensure the outside profile is concentric to the bore. The extra time results in extra cost to make but that also results in a barrel that shifts less when it gets hot.

 

My lightweight gun, that weighs 5 pounds, has a very thin 20" barrel. I bought the barrel brand new from a smith whe said it was a high quality barrel but I don't remember the maker. I didn't think anything about and actually expected the barrel to move all over the place after a few rounds because it is so thin. But in reality it stays right where it should after a dozen or more rounds when the barrel is extremely hot. This tells me the barrel is very uniform around the bore and the maker built it right. The barrel is .6" under the carbon fiber free float tube and .55" in front of the gas block and shoots better than some of the government profiled barrels I have owned. You can actually see the barrel move when you push on it with your finger. The gun is also gassed perfectly and even though it weighs 5 pounds it feels like you are shooting a 22.

[jcluff]

Dude if you wanted a sniper rifle you should have built a sniper rifle not an AR. Why do you need accuracy like that out of an ar? Are you planning on shooting competetively? If so I can understand if not I don't.

Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.

I wanted a rifle to compete in F-Class AR competitions out to 600 yards, but I didn't want to spend more than 1000 for a rifle that could do it. I am not sure tif this rifle will be competitive or not, but it fit the budget. I also wanted the experience of building my own lower without messing with my Sig M400, as I trust that rifle, but I do not yet trust my novice gun smithing attempts.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Dolomite_supafly]

I would get a different barrel if your intent is to compete. You can get an appropriate barrel for under $300 and be a lot more competitive. I would try to find a 8 twist barrel that way you can shoot anything that can feed from a magazine without over spinning some of the lighter bullets like a 7 twist can. 53 grain Sierra Match Kings will sling their jackets off at 3,200+ fps in a 7 twist barrel.

 

If you are planning on shooting heavier bullets I would suggest getting a longer barrel too in order to push them a bit faster.

 

Here are a few that would be more competitive than what you have.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/794051/ar-stoner-barrel-ar-15-223-remington-wylde-medium-contour-1-in-8-twist-18-fluted-stainless-steel

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/577053/ar-stoner-barrel-ar-15-223-remington-wylde-sdm-r-contour-1-in-8-twist-20-fluted-stainless-steel

[jcluff]

Make sure you are not shooting from a bipod or off a hard surface. Those two things can increase the groups sizes.

The groups you were getting initially are typical for most AR's. And there is nothing wrong with it because they are battle rifles where if they shoot minute of bad guy they are good. Even the 4" groups from Tula are minute of bad guy out to 400 yards. Having a gun that shoots 2"-3" during rapid fire is not bad, in fact it is very good

Heat related drift is all about concentricity of the barrel around the bore. If the barrel is a little thinner on one side then that side grows faster than the thick side and causes the barrel to bend slightly. This can result in the bullet impacts shifting. If you are lucky the shift will be up but in most cases it is not. It is possible to improve the shift if it is really bad but requires removing material from the outside of the barrel as it is spun on the axis of the bore. The fix may be dramatic or it may not fix it by much but it will fix it. The reason a high quality barrel costs more is they take more time to ensure the outside profile is concentric to the bore. The extra time results in extra cost to make but that also results in a barrel that shifts less when it gets hot.

My lightweight gun, that weighs 5 pounds, has a very thin 20" barrel. I bought the barrel brand new from a smith whe said it was a high quality barrel but I don't remember the maker. I didn't think anything about and actually expected the barrel to move all over the place after a few rounds because it is so thin. But in reality it stays right where it should after a dozen or more rounds when the barrel is extremely hot. This tells me the barrel is very uniform around the bore and the maker built it right. The barrel is .6" under the carbon fiber free float tube and .55" in front of the gas block and shoots better than some of the government profiled barrels I have owned. You can actually see the barrel move when you push on it with your finger. The gun is also gassed perfectly and even though it weighs 5 pounds it feels like you are shooting a 22.

That explains a lot, thank you! I have considered making my next gun a light weight AR Pistol with the ATF approved Sig Sauer brace. Knowing that thin barrels, if made right, can retain consistency in shot groups even after heating up a bit is good info to have.

If you ever recall who made your barrel, please message me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[jcluff]

I would get a different barrel if your intent is to compete. You can get an appropriate barrel for under $300 and be a lot more competitive. I would try to find a 8 twist barrel that way you can shoot anything that can feed from a magazine without over spinning some of the lighter bullets like a 7 twist can. 53 grain Sierra Match Kings will sling their jackets off at 3,200+ fps in a 7 twist barrel.

If you are planning on shooting heavier bullets I would suggest getting a longer barrel too in order to push them a bit faster.

Here are a few that would be more competitive than what you have.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/794051/ar-stoner-barrel-ar-15-223-remington-wylde-medium-contour-1-in-8-twist-18-fluted-stainless-steel
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/577053/ar-stoner-barrel-ar-15-223-remington-wylde-sdm-r-contour-1-in-8-twist-20-fluted-stainless-steel

The PSA upper I have is supposedly using a 1:8, .223 wylde Wilson SS barrel. 16 inch length was not my first choice, but the deal seemed worth it. Are stoner barrels considered more consistent or better quality than Wilson?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Clod Stomper]

If you're willing to spend a bit more time and money to get this one shooting, you may want to try cryo treating it.

I have a Mini-30 that would walk the POI 3-4 inches at 25 yards. Yes, literally. It was predictable. It would move right and up. And make a "J" shaped group.

I sent it to be cryo'ed and that improved it significantly. It still strings vertically, but not horizontally. And not as much vertically.

It wasn't expensive. Maybe 50 bucks? Don't remember exactly.

[TrickyNicky]

I would get a different barrel if your intent is to compete. You can get an appropriate barrel for under $300 and be a lot more competitive. I would try to find a 8 twist barrel that way you can shoot anything that can feed from a magazine without over spinning some of the lighter bullets like a 7 twist can. 53 grain Sierra Match Kings will sling their jackets off at 3,200+ fps in a 7 twist barrel.
 
If you are planning on shooting heavier bullets I would suggest getting a longer barrel too in order to push them a bit faster.
 
Here are a few that would be more competitive than what you have.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/794051/ar-stoner-barrel-ar-15-223-remington-wylde-medium-contour-1-in-8-twist-18-fluted-stainless-steel
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/577053/ar-stoner-barrel-ar-15-223-remington-wylde-sdm-r-contour-1-in-8-twist-20-fluted-stainless-steel

I've been looking for a barrel like the second one down. Order placed, thank you. :)

[jcluff]

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/794051/ar-stoner-barrel-ar-15-223-remington-wylde-medium-contour-1-in-8-twist-18-fluted-stainless-steel

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/577053/ar-stoner-barrel-ar-15-223-remington-wylde-sdm-r-contour-1-in-8-twist-20-fluted-stainless-steel

I have added the 18 inch barrel to my wishlist.  Maybe in a month or two I can pick up this barrel.  For now, I will continue to explore what this barrel can do.

 

I also have been using a bipod when shooting.  I will sand bag it and see if that improves anything for me.  I dont expect much change from heat performance but maybe it will have an effect on tightening my groups when shooting the barrel cold/cool.  I will also be starting some load development.  Even though most of the 75gr match ammo haven't performed well, I will be load developing with 77gr noslers, as I have about 1500 of them.  Maybe I can get them to shoot .75 inches with the right load.

[Guest tdoccrossvilletn]

I wanted a rifle to compete in F-Class AR competitions out to 600 yards, but I didn't want to spend more than 1000 for a rifle that could do it. I am not sure tif this rifle will be competitive or not, but it fit the budget. I also wanted the experience of building my own lower without messing with my Sig M400, as I trust that rifle, but I do not yet trust my novice gun smithing attempts.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Now I understand. I was curious. Like I said competition would be understandable. Any thing else self defense etc I wouldn't complain how it shoots. 4" groups would probably be fine for self defense or just plinking.

Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.

[RWF]

I had to rebuild my 3 gun AR because I was no longer strong enough to handle it well. so when PSA had sale on there 16" lightweight barrel uppers with 1 x 7 twist and mid-length gas system I bought one never shot it as it was. I needed to replace the receiver with the side charger I had. 

now the point of all this, after I got hurt I could not pick up my AR or pull a 2.5# trigger. as I took apart the PSA upper nothing was tight, more of a good snug. not even the barrel nut. I got it off myself, no hammering the wrench or heat. if that is not tight that could be the problem.

 

it looks like you have something like a med contour barrel and I would think if the barrel had any quality to it, it would not be moving your POI so much. I do understand about the cold bore shot, if you are going for a head shot at very long range. nothing meant by that.

 

before I got hurt I really enjoyed the action shooting sports. be it 3 gun or "tactical" rifle matches. granted most long shot where 300 or less, but you never started there. you went through a course of fire up to 20 rounds then engage the long range 12" flash targets. all these are timed events, with time limits some are 100 seconds to 180 seconds.

 

just know if I could shot a few shots then had to wait then in the trash it goes.

[trevorst]

RWF brings up a very valid point, if anything is loose then it could easily be causing a shift in POI. I had a rock river predator pursuit with a Wilson barrel that would string shots as it heated up, mine the issue was rock river had bent the gas tube and it was touching the barrel. New gas tube and the rifle went from a 1-1.5 MOA rifle to a consistent .75 MOA rifle.

Another occasion was a custom .308 I purchased assembled by a "reputable" company. It had a very expensive barrel and struggled to break 1 MOA, I sent it back and got the blah blah, we done this, we done that. It still struggled to break 1 MOA, finally I realized that the hand guard had shifted when they tightened it and it was touching the bottom of the gas block effectively negating my free float. That rifle now shoots tiny little bug holes with regularity.

Moral to the story, don't assume that because you purchased from a dealer that everything is perfect with your build (this is why every rifle I own in the future I will put together...)

[jcluff]

RWF and trevorst,

Thank you for this insight. I have been hesitant to screw around with the upper, as I have no experience in this area and have been concerned that I would only make it worse. However, considering what each of you have said, I may check the barrel nut and gas tube, as well as anything else I can see to make sure it is all tight and lined up properly. I would be pleased if one of these issued proved to be the source of the difficulties I am experiencing after only a few rounds are sent down range.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[trevorst]

If the handguard is easily removed I would just remove that and insure nothing is touching, the nut unless it was way under spec should hold it for at least a few rounds before it loosened.

 

For the record every Wilson barrel I have ever had (and there has been a couple) has been an excellent shooter.  Not a bad barrel at all. (My rock river Wilson didnt shoot the tightest groups in the world but it was a free love barrel... It would shoot anything pretty much sub MOA lol)

 

 

Lilja and Lothar Walther are also excellent barrels that will yield great results and are usually purchased with no wait time (Bartlein, Krieger, Rock, Brux, etc also wonderful but usually have a hideous wait..)

[Luke E.]

Make sure you are not shooting from a bipod or off a hard surface. Those two things can increase the groups sizes.

 

The groups you were getting initially are typical for most AR's. And there is nothing wrong with it because they are battle rifles where if they shoot minute of bad guy they are good. Even the 4" groups from Tula are minute of bad guy out to 400 yards. Having a gun that shoots 2"-3" during rapid fire is not bad, in fact it is very good

 

Heat related drift is all about concentricity of the barrel around the bore. If the barrel is a little thinner on one side then that side grows faster than the thick side and causes the barrel to bend slightly. This can result in the bullet impacts shifting. If you are lucky the shift will be up but in most cases it is not. It is possible to improve the shift if it is really bad but requires removing material from the outside of the barrel as it is spun on the axis of the bore. The fix may be dramatic or it may not fix it by much but it will fix it. The reason a high quality barrel costs more is they take more time to ensure the outside profile is concentric to the bore. The extra time results in extra cost to make but that also results in a barrel that shifts less when it gets hot.

 

My lightweight gun, that weighs 5 pounds, has a very thin 20" barrel. I bought the barrel brand new from a smith whe said it was a high quality barrel but I don't remember the maker. I didn't think anything about and actually expected the barrel to move all over the place after a few rounds because it is so thin. But in reality it stays right where it should after a dozen or more rounds when the barrel is extremely hot. This tells me the barrel is very uniform around the bore and the maker built it right. The barrel is .6" under the carbon fiber free float tube and .55" in front of the gas block and shoots better than some of the government profiled barrels I have owned. You can actually see the barrel move when you push on it with your finger. The gun is also gassed perfectly and even though it weighs 5 pounds it feels like you are shooting a 22.

 

 I just noticed something in this thread, the OP is stating that his GROUPS open way up rather than the POI SHIFT that would be the product of an un-concentric barrel. I can see where groups could open up some with heat but everyone seems to be diagnosing POI shift rather than an enlarging group. Am I over thinking this?

[RWF]

RWF and trevorst,

Thank you for this insight. I have been hesitant to screw around with the upper, as I have no experience in this area and have been concerned that I would only make it worse. However, considering what each of you have said, I may check the barrel nut and gas tube, as well as anything else I can see to make sure it is all tight and lined up properly. I would be pleased if one of these issued proved to be the source of the difficulties I am experiencing after only a few rounds are sent down range.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

thanks, but for what it's worth, with the gas tube in place it would to be hard to tell if the barrel nut is correctly tighten unless its that "loose". living in Nashville you most likely know someone who has the tools and knows what he is doing.

this may or may not work, but maybe you could try burning 20 rounds thru it fast then with a rag or light glove try and wiggle the barrel to see if you notice any play "barrel movement" holding the upper or float tube. it should be solid, remember if u try and hold the lower the upper will wiggle side to side.

that work for me once but it was a accident. I was pissed grab the barrel throw the gun in the truck and it moved, a lot.

Edited September 24, 2013 by RWF

[gregintenn]

Now I understand. I was curious. Like I said competition would be understandable. Any thing else self defense etc I wouldn't complain how it shoots. 4" groups would probably be fine for self defense or just plinking.

Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.

I can't imagine being satisfied with 4" groups from any rifle. :shake: I have a cut down Spanish mauser that'll beat that, and I only have $30 in the gun!