Here is a dose of Big Brother you might not like...

[JayC]

I mostly refer to natural rights, sometimes the God given slips out ;)  I'm bold enough to question a mans politics, I'm not bold enough to question his religious beliefs, if that makes me a wimp then so be it ;)

 

I disagree on the bellyaching...  I think there is a lack of understanding what true freedom and liberty is, that most people were purposely educated in a way to try and prevent them from asking big questions, how our current form of government violates the spirit of freedom and liberty that resulted in our independence from England.

 

Somebody has to go around planting those seeds if there is any hope when bad stuff happens down the road we have a chance of finding the right path back to individual freedom and liberty.

 

Just so I understand; you bring up "God given rights" and whether voting is moral or not moral but you don't want to talk about religion...go it.

 

What you term tilting at windmills just sounds like a lot of bellyaching to me and bellyaching is pointless and a waste of time.

 

Not completely on point but this came to mind when reading your reply here:

 

 

First they came for the communists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

 

Then they came for the socialists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

 

Then they came for the trade unionists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

 

Then they came for me,

and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

As long as they don't come for your life, liberty, and property you're fine letting them take everybody elses?  If we don't stand up and make noise every time the government violates natural rights, then we make it easier for them to come and take the next one, and the next one.

 

What other forms of blood contracts do we have today?  How is it that we define any other form of forced contract to be completely illegal, except the one that removes all of your rights under the threat of force?  I don't expect an answer the questions are there to get people thinking and nothing more.

 

I would discuss it with you but I've already been chastised for daring to raise the subject of religion.  ;)

 

I will say this...we have a legally constituted government that I believe we are honor bound to obey and to defend and that the only rational, reasonable, dare I say "moral" way to affect change in that government is through the political process/voting.   Until some jack-booted thug breaks down my front door and starts shooting; that's as "revolutionary" as I'm going to get and like Mr. JayC, I can truly say I sleep easy at night in the belief that my convictions match my religious beliefs completely.

 

With that said I feel this thread has gone so far off course that it will never correct itself so I'm done!

 

[JayC]

What he said ;)  6.8 is right, I'm happy to talk about natural rights coming from our Creator, but I'm not comfortable quoting scripture and trying to tell somebody what the words in the bible mean. 

 

And thanks 6.8 for jumping in there and tapping the third rail so eloquently.

 

Mentioning God is not religion. Mentioning a certain religious belief(Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc) is. I didn't take

quotes from the Bible, or any other religious document to say what I did, so it shouldn't offend any "sensitivities" some

non-thinking individual may have. You can take religion to further your beliefs, which is fine, but you don't have to to

get where governments came from. Governments pre-date the Bible and the Quran, when you include monarchies

and other forms of rule.

 

Now, to get back on track, Jay didn't say he wanted to go to conflict with anyone, but said it was inevitable with the

current economic situation, and that morally, it is justified by the Founder's writings and any time to defend your

freedom, which is most definitely being challenged on a daily basis. We can't survive as a nation of laws when those

laws control every breath we take, and take our treasure and creativity away to further an abysmal cause, which has

a belief system based on death over life. Liberalism equals death. It ain't us, and we don't have a flock of virgins

waiting for us in paradise.

 

We have many things that are in need of repair, and this current regime is at war with us over every one of those

things.

 

[TMF]

I disagree on the bellyaching... I think there is a lack of understanding what true freedom and liberty is, that most people were purposely educated in a way to try and prevent them from asking big questions, how our current form of government violates the spirit of freedom and liberty that resulted in our independence from England.

But what if the crown had granted us the representation and semi-autonomy we demanded prior to revolution taking hold? Would there have been a revolution at all?

It's the big difference between the tyranny we have now and the tyranny we had then. We have a voice today and a legal means to bring about the changes we want and need, versus back then when there was zero recourse for what the crown and parliament was doing except for armed rebellion.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

We are losing that voice, Dan. Too many people have walked away from the process. The tyranny now is no different

from back then, only slower and more incremental. We have a king in the making, at least he thinks so. We do still have

the legal means to change things but it is slipping away, due to a lack of interest by many.

 

If the King had just granted autonomy, we may not have fought the Revolutionary War, but that didn't happen, did it?

No one is saying they want to fight a war, just that it becomes a moral obligation for those who value their liberty when

all other options become ineffective.

[McGarrett]

I can identify with many of the viewpoints of the others. I do agree with Dustbuster's post that we should not overestimate the capability of the government, but at the same time what if you are the one showing up on their radar screen at the moment for whatever reason. There is a lot of information floating around out there that can easily be misused.

 

Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people.
Theodore Roosevelt 

[tnguy]

Mentioning God is not religion. Mentioning a certain religious belief(Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc) is. I didn't take

quotes from the Bible, or any other religious document to say what I did, so it shouldn't offend any "sensitivities" some

non-thinking individual may have. You can take religion to further your beliefs, which is fine, but you don't have to to

get where governments came from. Governments pre-date the Bible and the Quran, when you include monarchies

and other forms of rule.

 

Now, to get back on track, Jay didn't say he wanted to go to conflict with anyone, but said it was inevitable with the

current economic situation, and that morally, it is justified by the Founder's writings and any time to defend your

freedom, which is most definitely being challenged on a daily basis. We can't survive as a nation of laws when those

laws control every breath we take, and take our treasure and creativity away to further an abysmal cause, which has

a belief system based on death over life. Liberalism equals death. It ain't us, and we don't have a flock of virgins

waiting for us in paradise.

 

We have many things that are in need of repair, and this current regime is at war with us over every one of those

things.

 

The Judeo-Christian belief system can be argued to say that one should respect the governments one is under as they have been put there by God. This is actually pretty explicit in one or two places (though most moder Christians believe that most of the old law has been superseded by Christ. But he still says to render-unto-Caesar). I once asked a pastor how this reconciled with the American Revolution. I never did get an answer to that one.

[tnguy]

But what if the crown had granted us the representation and semi-autonomy we demanded prior to revolution taking hold? Would there have been a revolution at all?

It's the big difference between the tyranny we have now and the tyranny we had then. We have a voice today and a legal means to bring about the changes we want and need, versus back then when there was zero recourse for what the crown and parliament was doing except for armed rebellion.

 

There's a fairly interesting story out there that the revolution may have only been days away from being averted and pretty much only happened due to some bad luck. I'll have to track it down.

[RobertNashville]

The Judeo-Christian belief system can be argued to say that one should respect the governments one is under as they have been put there by God. This is actually pretty explicit in one or two places (though most moder Christians believe that most of the old law has been superseded by Christ. But he still says to render-unto-Caesar). I once asked a pastor how this reconciled with the American Revolution. I never did get an answer to that one.

At the risk of discussing "religion"; Romans is the passage most people refer to yet Paul himself "disobeyed" the government (Rome) on many occasions...what most people, even some pastors don't understand is that no where in the Bible are we instructed to follow laws that are in direct contradiction to God's word.  However, there is a significant difference between resistance to immoral laws and violent rebellion.

 

The colonists had sufficient provocation to rebel as they had not other avenue left to them...we, on the other hand, have the benefit of "rebellion" at the ballot box and that is that method we should use unless that option is taken away from us.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

No one is arguing that, Robert.

[Guest ThePunisher]

.
 
The colonists had sufficient provocation to rebel as they had not other avenue left to them...we, on the other hand, have the benefit of "rebellion" at the ballot box and that is that method we should use unless that option is taken away from us.

I agree, but it's becoming more evident each day that the commies currently in charge are willing to take away that option, or at least nullifying our option through activist judges that are legislating from the bench, executive orders from the President, over reaching bureaucracies such as EPA, and even a corrupt DOJ that refuses to enforce justice.

[TMF]

We are losing that voice, Dan. Too many people have walked away from the process. The tyranny now is no different
from back then, only slower and more incremental. We have a king in the making, at least he thinks so. We do still have
the legal means to change things but it is slipping away, due to a lack of interest by many.

If the King had just granted autonomy, we may not have fought the Revolutionary War, but that didn't happen, did it?
No one is saying they want to fight a war, just that it becomes a moral obligation for those who value their liberty when
all other options become ineffective.

My general disapproval of Obama has evolved into full on rage over the past year, but I still know he ain't the problem. He's just a symptom. He'll eventually fade away, along with Feinstein and Reed only to be replaced by new socialist shells looking to pander to the handout crowd.

My line in the sand is about where it needs to be. If we continue down the path we're on our voice will eventually be taken away. With the rising number of takers and shrinking number if producers it is inevitable. But we can't fight that outside the bounds of our laws just yet. As long as we have a peaceful means to overcome (as slim a chance it is) it is only moral to continue to use those means. When we lose that the game has changed and you'll see doing my thing.

[mav]

My line in the sand is about where it needs to be. If we continue down the path we're on our voice will eventually be taken away. With the rising number of takers and shrinking number if producers it is inevitable. But we can't fight that outside the bounds of our laws just yet. As long as we have a peaceful means to overcome (as slim a chance it is) it is only moral to continue to use those means. When we lose that the game has changed and you'll see doing my thing.

 

Getting beyond the misunderstandings that often result from different writing styles, I believe your line in the sand is pretty close with the rest of us. I think that most of us, with a few exceptions, view revolution as the very last option, and I believe that most of us hope/pray that it never comes to fruition.  However, as you stated, the balance between producers and consumers is reaching a threshold.  Once we are over that threshold, we could see our rights and liberties stripped from us at an alarming pace with no possible political recourse to stop the infringement of our rights.

 

If we continue on the same course, this may come rather quickly.  I am still holding out hope, even though it is minute, that more people will become engaged in the political system to help get these bastards out of Washington.  The emergence of the Tea Party, and their continuous battles in the political theater give me a little reassurance that all is not lost, at least not yet.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

It's not, Mav. We just need to get folks to re-engage.

[DaveTN]

 

I disagree on the bellyaching...  I think there is a lack of understanding what true freedom and liberty is, that most people were purposely educated in a way to try and prevent them from asking big questions, how our current form of government violates the spirit of freedom and liberty that resulted in our independence from England.

 

 

Okay, you have had your revolt. Our government is in ruins and so is the Constitution. What’s left of our manufacturing base is collapsing and we have lost our place in the world economy. Looters are running rampant and the United States (no longer United) is a very dangerous place to be.

 

We now look to you for our new form of government and reform. What will be different? What form of government will we have? Fill us in.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

He doesn't want that, either, Dave. But, in the case of that happening, it will be a long time before any government

will happen that could be considered a lasting one. Hard times!

 

I would do a re-write to a few very important lines in the Constitution, like Judge Narragansett did at the end of Atlas

Shrugged. There are mistakes in the Constitution. Ones that could have avoided a lot of the mess we have, right now.

[Guest ThePunisher]

Okay, you have had your revolt. Our government is in ruins and so is the Constitution. What’s left of our manufacturing base is collapsing and we have lost our place in the world economy. Looters are running rampant and the United States (no longer United) is a very dangerous place to be.
 
We now look to you for our new form of government and reform. What will be different? What form of government will we have? Fill us in.

With leaders like Ted Cruz, Mike Lee, Rand Paul, and Marco Rubio, I don't believe our government would be inoperable for long. A government can only operate with brain power, something that's been lacking in DC for awhile. They would be the new version of the founding fathers. You can trample the Constitution but you can't destroy it's ideals, values and principles from the hearts of freedom loving people. The direction our country has been going, it is inevitable of government collapse; it is train wreck waiting to happen. King Obama and his commie policies just happens to be the catalyst of wrecking the train.

Ted Cruz and those that helped him on the filibuster gives me hope and pride again knowing we've got some capable leaders who still love America, and the values and principles that have made her so great.

[DaveTN]

With leaders like Ted Cruz, Mike Lee, Rand Paul, and Marco Rubio, I don't believe our government would be inoperable for long. A government can only operate with brain power, something that's been lacking in DC for awhile. They would be the new version of the founding fathers. You can trample the Constitution but you can't destroy it's ideals, values and principles from the hearts of freedom loving people. The direction our country has been going, it is inevitable of government collapse; it is train wreck waiting to happen. King Obama and his commie policies just happens to be the catalyst of wrecking the train.

Ted Cruz and those that helped him on the filibuster gives me hope and pride again knowing we've got some capable leaders who still love America, and the values and principles that have made her so great.

How are those people going to get to the white house? Are they going to be elected? If Obama is still alive and the people are still electing their leaders what makes you think he won’t be elected again?

[Guest ThePunisher]

How are those people going to get to the white house? Are they going to be elected? If Obama is still alive and the people are still electing their leaders what makes you think he won’t be elected again?

You depicted a revolt and government collapse. If that happens I can guarantee that the commie weasels will be running or hiding from an angry bunch of patriots. Edited September 25, 2013 by ThePunisher

[JayC]

I've never called for a revolt, or suggested having one would be a good thing, or lead to good results...  Only my opinion that one is probably coming, and it will be the other side of the political spectrum that likely starts it.  If that revolt happens it will likely be the result of a currency crisis or brought on by the end of the US Dollar as the worlds reserve currency - which would likely trigger a currency crisis.

 

I think your description of the likely outcome is about spot on, and that we likely would see many different forms of tyrannical governments grow out of what was once the US.

 

I have a slim hope that freedom and liberty will take hold in such an aftermath and we might see people who want to return to true individual freedom, but that is a slim hope at best.  Although I feel the best way to do that is to educate and open the eyes of small government conservatives to those ideas now, because it will be way too late by the time we see bad stuff happen.

 

Trust me if I thought there was a likely positive outcome for freedom and liberty, I'd already be out there causing problems, not talking about it on here ;)

 

Okay, you have had your revolt. Our government is in ruins and so is the Constitution. What’s left of our manufacturing base is collapsing and we have lost our place in the world economy. Looters are running rampant and the United States (no longer United) is a very dangerous place to be.

 

We now look to you for our new form of government and reform. What will be different? What form of government will we have? Fill us in.

 

[mav]

If Obama is still alive and the people are still electing their leaders what makes you think he won’t be elected again?

 

He only gets two terms, so this will be his last.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

In the end, liberals are cowards and will do like Punisher
said. They know all they are doing is tricking people with
a shell game. Once they are exposed, and we're broke,
they will be on the run. They cant live by their own rules
if they don't have someone else willing to pay for it.

[DaveTN]

You depicted a revolt and government collapse. If that happens I can guarantee that the commie weasels will be running or hiding from an angry bunch of patriots.

If Patriots are around they won’t have to run anywhere. It’s why a revolt won’t work; Patriots won’t let it happen. If revolutionists decide to take down our nation by force they will die where they make their stand.

[DaveTN]

He only gets two terms, so this will be his last.

Those rules only apply under our current government. New government; new rules…. I would assume.

[mav]

If Patriots are around they won’t have to run anywhere. It’s why a revolt won’t work; Patriots won’t let it happen. If revolutionists decide to take down our nation by force they will die where they make their stand.

 

I was about to engage in a debate with you on what you stated, but then realized the futility of the exercise.  I will go bang my head against the wall elsewhere.  :)

[Guest ThePunisher]

If Patriots are around they won’t have to run anywhere. It’s why a revolt won’t work; Patriots won’t let it happen. If revolutionists decide to take down our nation by force they will die where they make their stand.

I believe these commies have already deemed us patriots who love freedom and our guns as anarchist, and the enemies of the state. I believe it will be these commies in office that starts or causes a reaction from us patriots. They are wanting a good excuse to bring about Martial Law to stamp out our remaining liberties and freedoms.