Starbucks caves

[macville]

And there's the rub.  There's no winning hearts and minds here.  A gun is a tool used to do one thing - kill.  Maybe it's to protect your family.  Great.  Maybe it's to provide food for you table.  Awesome.  Maybe it's to keep the government off of your front porch.  Okay.  But, when a non-gun person looks at a person they don't know carrying a gun openly, they see a person who wants to kill somebody and today might be the day.  You might have some conversations with folks.  But regardless of whether or not the conversations end well, they all started out of fear - the fear that you might do something crazy with that gun.  You're not going to win.  Ever.

 

One, a gun is not a tool for just one thing. If it is, all my guns are defective as they have never killed anything more than a piece of paper or a clay target. There are plenty of guns that are designed for only target practice, skeet, etc. Heck, until these super high FPS air rifles came on the market, most airguns would be pretty hard to kill someone with. Most handguns are designed to stop a threat and not much more, otherwise we'd probably shoot rife rounds in them. Yes, they do kill, but rhetoric like that is hard to wade through considering the different aspects of design.

 

Two, your statement about a non-gun person is simply speculation and in my experience, incorrect. Most people are middle of the road and are far more open than you think (even outside the south.) If a person talks to you while your are openingly carrying a gun then it's obvious that THEY WERE NOT THAT FEARFUL. People normally avoid something they are fearful of, we are taking very basic human psychology. Of all the conversations I have had while OC'ing did any start with a person having fear in their body language or voice. There is somewhat, I believe, of a conditioning already in place of "less threat" when people see someone OC'ing in a holster because they see cops doing it. I don't have any proof of that, but what I studied about conditioning and the subconscious in college has led me to believe that (seeing it in media also might help.)

 

If you let the media run the conversation like we have been doing, of course the other side is going to win. We can't fight the war as we have in the past because the game has changed. There seems to a whole bunch of you that want to keep fighting it the old way (silently), but my generation and younger don't respond to that. I don't think it's a coincidence that gun laws have loosened quite a bit across the country after the internet came onto the scene. It's a new era in communications and how you fight. The anti's have adapted the narrative and we need to change that. To keep rights you always have to be on the offense, but we have gotten lazy and switch to the defense. That has to change or we will have no gun rights in 20-30 years.

 

Also, please remember that the people who are the other side screaming at starbucks don't want you to carry concealed in there either. They aren't screaming about us being "reasonable" with our firearms, these are the people that don't want any of us to have firearms period. You are NOT dealing with moderate people. You are just as evil as the OC'ers in their minds.

Edited September 19, 2013 by macville

[East_TN_Patriot]

Well done open-carry zealots!  You sure showed them who is boss!

As many others on this forum say regularly, if you go looking for trouble, you're certain to find it.  Stop your ignorant open-carry "to make a political statement" BS before you make things worse.

EDIT:

This was posted by one of my FB friends and it expands on my point above.  If it has been posted already, I apologize, but did not see it.

 

 

We have essentially forced neutral Switzerland into the hands of the Nazis. A company that was not restrictive in their corporate policy. A company who followed local law. We forced them onto the national stage– without consulting them about it, I might add– and into the center of a rather divisive debate. 

[...]

Instead of quietly supporting a company through the  purchase of their product to show your appreciation,  you just had to load up an AR, AK, or shotgun or put on that fancy “tactical” drop leg holster, call all of your gun-guy friends to meet you there, and march into the place to “Make a statement” and “educate” people on our rights.

You had to throw that rifle on your back, knowing damn good and well you were going to cause a scene. If you DIDNT know you were going to cause a scene, you’re an idiot when you consider the multiple “active killer/mass murder” incidents of very recent notoriety. You have allowed those of us who choose to be smart regarding these matters to get a black eye from society and,  you are directly responsible for allowing the left a small victory.

The attention-whoreness of it all is rather disturbing

http://practicaltacticalpodcast.com/starbucks/
 

Edited September 19, 2013 by East_TN_Patriot

[Peace]

     I read Schultz's letter.  It was well written; it carried compassion toward our cause, and it continued to display a (somewhat undeserved - from some of the photos I've seen) respect to law abiding, common-sense-wearing responsible gun owners.

 

     I am not sure that I would afford such a brazen, disrespectful, ... and socially clueless "group" of people the same respect in my place of business.

 

I know this has been posted, but here it is again.  If you haven't read it, it may be worth a read.

http://practicaltacticalpodcast.com/starbucks/

 

    I care about each of you, and there are benefits to our differences of opinion.  Even so, please, please be aware of Newton's Third law of social interaction.  If someone is not fighting with you, don't shove them.  

     If, of course, anyone happens to just love going around looking for a fight, I would ask them to please find something less important to obsess about. - but they would probably fight me on that.   :cool:

 

 

     Open carry may have its place, but:  baiting, shock-and-awe, or "see what I can do"... none of those will do anything but align those who are neutral and those who are already against us - into a force which we will not be able to defeat... and if you think, "fine, let's go to war, then."  Such a high, high cost we would enslave our children to.. (beyond comprehension - we've not had a war on our soil since the civil war) .. a cost which can be averted with our own self-enforcement of responsibility - long with socially aware, emotionally mature activism.

 

 

---

 Take the logic and hard line talk to your representatives and win the arguments in the legislative arenas.

 

Take respect, awareness, kindness, and common sense with you everywhere else.  Those four tenets should be constant companions to every firearm we own.

---

Edited September 19, 2013 by Peace

[Peace]

--multi-post error--

Edited September 19, 2013 by Peace

[TNMTBik3r]

I normally stay out of these posts, enjoy sitting back and laughing at all the nonsense I read.

But...for all the people who talk about boycotting Starbucks since they are infringing on your rights (even though it is a clear REQUEST to leave them out of the politics involved and a REQUEST to not open carry in a method that could invoke fear), are you also going to quit your jobs tomorrow?

Most companies have a policy that prohibits weapons on the premises. The actual building may not be posted but when you accepted the position you acknowledged you would follow the company policy. Therefore they are now infringing on your constitutional right and you should gibe up your job and boycott said company.

Obviously this is a ridiculous thought and no one is going to quit their job. So how is the request by Starbucks to leave them out of the gun discussion, and for the nutjobs who carry long arms into their establishment to cease any less ridiculous?


As for the posts about how open carry can incite fear...I agree it can. I also agree that open carry is a decision for each person to make and I respect it.
I have a neighbor who open carries a Sig 226 everywhere. When I first moved into the area, the way he acted while OCing did cause me some unrest even though I knew I could defend myself if he ended up being a strange character. If I had seen someone carrying a shotgun or AR around the neighborhood I would have been even more concerned.

[RobertNashville]

See previous comment.  Stop speaking for me, Robert.  You might be the majority in your own mind but you're not in real practice.

I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to tell me but if you mean that I consider myself one of the 90% that would be wrong...I don't frequent Starbucks a lot but I do now and then...I love their coffee (beans/ground...not so much what they brew on site) and I use the one a half-mile from me for meeting people so I'm in the 10%.

 

However, I really still don't see what all the fuss is about here and with that said...I'm out of here so as to let others continue arguing about it. ;)

[TNMTBik3r]

I meant to also say in my post above...just because a company policy is no weapons in the premises, that does not mean everyone there is a gun hating lib.
SB should not be considered any differently IMO. They are a business, trying to stay out of the fight and make money by selling their product.

[Mike.357]

 

 

That’s why I am writing today with a respectful request that customers no longer bring firearms into our stores or outdoor seating areas.

 

 

this line is what I have referred to.  It is pretty much black and white what Starbucks prefers.

 

I agree with several comments that sooner or later they will post due to people OC'ing there.

[TMF]

I read Schultz's letter. It was well written; it carried compassion toward our cause, and it continued to display a (somewhat undeserved - from some of the photos I've seen) respect to law abiding, common-sense-wearing responsible gun owners.

I am not sure that I would afford such a brazen, disrespectful, ... and socially clueless "group" of people the same respect in my place of business.

Yes!!!

[E4 No More]

this line is what I have referred to.  It is pretty much black and white what Starbucks prefers.

 

I agree with several comments that sooner or later they will post due to people OC'ing there.

Yes, that's the line that many seem to have missed. They are stating that your gun, either open or concealed, is NOT welcome in their place of business.

[mikegideon]

Yes, that's the line that many seem to have missed. They are stating that your gun, either open or concealed, is NOT welcome in their place of business.

 

Then, why didn't he just write a one line statement? There won't be any signs. I just can't see why people are having such a hard time seeing this for what it is. Hell, TMF deserves a Pulitzer for the way he explained it.

 

If I had a bunch of AR toting assholes come into my business and cost me money, I would throw them out, and not be near as nice. 

Edited September 19, 2013 by mikegideon

[Mike.357]

Then, why didn't he just write a one line statement? There won't be any signs. I just can't see why people are having such a hard time for seeing this for what it is. Hell, TMF deserves a Pulitzer for the way he explained it.

 

If I had a bunch of AR toting assholes come into my business and cost me money, I would throw them out, and not be near as nice. 

 

 

hard to play both sides of the fence with one sentence. 

 

And I really don't understand why anyone would want to carry a long gun into a coffee shop when clearly a handgun is more appropriate. There most likely is no need for a long range shot in a SB, they aren't that big.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Mike.357

[gregintenn]

One, a gun is not a tool for just one thing. If it is, all my guns are defective as they have never killed anything more than a piece of paper or a clay target. There are plenty of guns that are designed for only target practice, skeet, etc. Heck, until these super high FPS air rifles came on the market, most airguns would be pretty hard to kill someone with. Most handguns are designed to stop a threat and not much more, otherwise we'd probably shoot rife rounds in them. Yes, they do kill, but rhetoric like that is hard to wade through considering the different aspects of design.

 

Two, your statement about a non-gun person is simply speculation and in my experience, incorrect. Most people are middle of the road and are far more open than you think (even outside the south.) If a person talks to you while your are openingly carrying a gun then it's obvious that THEY WERE NOT THAT FEARFUL. People normally avoid something they are fearful of, we are taking very basic human psychology. Of all the conversations I have had while OC'ing did any start with a person having fear in their body language or voice. There is somewhat, I believe, of a conditioning already in place of "less threat" when people see someone OC'ing in a holster because they see cops doing it. I don't have any proof of that, but what I studied about conditioning and the subconscious in college has led me to believe that (seeing it in media also might help.)

 

If you let the media run the conversation like we have been doing, of course the other side is going to win. We can't fight the war as we have in the past because the game has changed. There seems to a whole bunch of you that want to keep fighting it the old way (silently), but my generation and younger don't respond to that. I don't think it's a coincidence that gun laws have loosened quite a bit across the country after the internet came onto the scene. It's a new era in communications and how you fight. The anti's have adapted the narrative and we need to change that. To keep rights you always have to be on the offense, but we have gotten lazy and switch to the defense. That has to change or we will have no gun rights in 20-30 years.

 

Also, please remember that the people who are the other side screaming at starbucks don't want you to carry concealed in there either. They aren't screaming about us being "reasonable" with our firearms, these are the people that don't want any of us to have firearms period. You are NOT dealing with moderate people. You are just as evil as the OC'ers in their minds.

I realize that in your own mind, you think you are helping the cause of gun owners. With the attitude you've displayed in this thread, coupled with you wearing a firearm for everyone to see, is not.

 

I don't care how many people you pizz off, or convert to gun owners, or whatever. The part that bothers me is that you are casting a negative image over ALL gun owners, which I am one.

 

When I was a kid at 4-H camp, someone took a dump in the pool. Not only did he get thrown out of the pool, everyone there got thrown out of the pool. You, sir, are pooping in the pool.

Edited September 19, 2013 by gregintenn

[Erik88]

Then, why didn't he just write a one line statement?

 

The same could be said as to why he didn't write a one line statement saying "no open carry allowed".

 

If this was ONLY about OC and nothing else they would have stated that.

[mikegideon]

hard to play both sides of the fence with one sentence. 

 

And I really don't understand why anyone would want to carry a long gun into a coffee shop when clearly a handgun is more appropriate. There most likely is no need for a long range shot in a SB, they aren't that big.

 

An AR or a shotgun is real useful when shooting up a crowd. Probably overkill for just protecting yourself from a bunch of buzzed up libtards.

[Peace]

Ha!  oh boy,   "It's no big deal!"  (Carl takes a bite out of the baby ruth)

[mikegideon]

The same could be said as to why he didn't write a one line statement saying "no open carry allowed".

 

If this was ONLY about OC and nothing else they would have stated that.

 

Maybe he threw some curve balls to those that aren't capable of reading between the lines. I don't make statements with guns, and will carry in there until they post. 

[E4 No More]

The same could be said as to why he didn't write a one line statement saying "no open carry allowed".

 

If this was ONLY about OC and nothing else they would have stated that.

^^ This, Mike Gideon. That one statement said it all.

Edited September 19, 2013 by SWJewellTN

[G27]

Yes, that's the line that many seem to have missed. They are stating that your gun, either open or concealed, is NOT welcome in their place of business.

Yup, and it was welcome before, until the OCing idiots had to force their hand, despite the fact SB made it clear they'd rather not play.

I'd like to hope these 'activists' would learn from this, but based on what I've seen in the gun forums and the feedback on Starbucks' FB page, it doesn't look like that's the case.

*sigh* Edited September 21, 2013 by crimsonaudio

[G27]

The same could be said as to why he didn't write a one line statement saying "no open carry allowed".
 
If this was ONLY about OC and nothing else they would have stated that.

LOL, do you really think they're concerned with CC? If it's concealed, why would they care?

They care because the kwik-wannabes couldn't control themselves and forced their hand.

And no, this isn't about OCing in general, but the OCers are the ones who caused this.

[Lumber_Jack]

[quote name="Erik88" post="1035777" timestamp="1379608306"] The same could be said as to why he didn't write a one line statement saying "no open carry allowed". If this was ONLY about OC and nothing else they would have stated that.[/quote] You're reading way too much into this. He doesn't care about guns or gun politics, only selling as many people coffee a possible. Saying "no open carry" doesn't appease the libs, saying "guns are banned" offend us, so he said something in between. In all honesty the guy probably doesn't give two ####s about concealed vs OC, he just doesn't want people feeling uncomfortable in his stores. My invisible gun has never mad anyone uncomfortable, of that I'm certain. Edited September 19, 2013 by Lumber_Jack

[mikegideon]

Well... the term guntard has become mighty useful here lately. On a gun forum at that. 

[daddyo]

Looks like it's pretty simple to me. 

 

If Starbucks' stance offends you, go somewhere else to buy your coffee. If you think they have been more than reasonable about it, and you like their product, then keep on keepin' on.

 

'Murrica!  :usa:

[TripleDigitRide]

Salted caramel mocha frappuccino.  :yum:  The salt part is a seasonal (fall/winter) thing. Anyone know when they start serving it?

[Erik88]

LOL, do you really think they're concerned with CC? If it's concealed, why would they care?

They care because the kwik-wannabes couldn't control themselves and forced their hand.

And no, this isn't about OCing in general, but the OCers are the ones who caused this.

 

Do you remember the woman who was carrying a gun in her purse at starbucks and had a ND? She shot someone standing near her.

 

SHE WAS CARRYING CONCEALED! 

 

I'm not sure what we are even arguing about. All I'm trying to say is that I'm sure there were more discussions in the board room other than open carry. I agree with you guys that the open carry of AR's and AK's only made things worse.

 

 

Here you go...damn concealed carry idiots. 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/13/gun-in-purse-starbucks_n_3268652.html

Edited September 20, 2013 by Erik88