Starbucks caves

[macville]

Sir; I don't think TMF had anything to do with our current situation. Let's point at Columbine, Fort Hood, Sandy Hook, Boston Marathon gun killings and now the DC Navy Yard. Maybe the sight of guns is scaring the crap out of people right now! Why should any of us want to "push" this on other folks? Some people on here call them "Sheeple". I call them PEOPLE that see you with a gun wanting to know if all your eggs are still in the nest, what kind day you are having, did you take your meds this morning ect., ect.. Don't blame them, but lets blame ourselves. We bring this on ourselves do we not?

 

DaveS

 

Basically, you are saying we should let the few evil people win. Standing by will never help us win-unless it's letting a politician step in it with their big mouths. All we ever do is damage control instead of going on the offensive. Heck, if you look at gun control laws we've basically been on the defensive since the civil war. You want to change people's minds? Hiding our guns in a dark corner isn't going to do that. If you don't like what the OC advocates are doing because you think they are the fringe, then why aren't you out there OC'ing as a normal person? CCW isn't going to change people's mind because they don't know that it's there. The fact that millions of people have a CCW seems to mean nothing to the public, but an armed person out with their family or doing normal stuff has a much bigger impact. If you disagree, then how do you suggest we get people used to guns without them seeing them?

[daddyo]

OC activists have no one to blame but themselves for this. It wouldn't surprise me if other businesses who have also remained neutral up to this point take the same stance.

[DaveS]

Has anyone other than me ever thought that some people don't want to get used to guns? Some people are afraid of dogs, should we walk our dogs up to them? Some people are afraid of the dark, should we turn out the street lights so they get used to it? And then, some people are afraid of guns. We stand on our 2A rights for obvious reasons. How about the "rights" of the person sitting next to us? They have rights as well. The biggest problem I see, is that some of us here, are so concerned about OUR rights, that we infringe on others just to exercise ours. This country would be a much better place if we ALL respected each others rights and show some courtesy toward our fellow man. OC has it's place. Walking into a crowded coffee shop isn't one of them. You're not going to convert people to like guns, by shoving it down their throats.

 

DaveS

[TMF]

As expected, many in this thread want to comment on their personal taste in coffee, or lack of taste for coffee, so that it doesn't matter to them what Starbucks does, and this misses the fundamental point. Starbucks' official policy is now publicly stated that they want your money; not you. It DOES effect you because other large companies will be watching the consequences of this action before deciding on THEIR course of action. They are defacto against legal activity with this policy. They could have said that we ban open carry in our stores - which to me is reasonable because it clearly disturbs a large portion of their customer base - but that's not what they're saying. They are saying that only guns carried by law enforcement are welcomed, and that my concealed weapon is not welcomed - which is NOT disturbing to their customer base and NOT reasonable, IMHO. This is why they'll no longer get any of my money. I don't care if they are trying to appease anyone on both sides of the problem.

Please read the comments by their corporate office. They don't care about guns one way or the other. They just want to be left out of the debate. They're asking nicely, and instead of digesting that like adults who seek to understand both sides of the debate, we're choosing to act offended and get hostile with this company. I got no problem gettin fighting mad, but I want to make sure it's for the right reasons. This ain't it. There's a lot of smart folks here, you included. I don't see why you can't understand what they're saying. This has absolutely nothing to do with people who choose to carry, concealed or otherwise.

[mikegideon]

So how do you differentiate between some guy carrying openly because it's more comfortable or he just feels like it vs. someone trying to stir the pot? It seems to be that Starbucks certainly doesn't care what reason someone is OCing, they don't want it in their stores.

 

But again, this is about more than just open carry. Putting all the blame on that crowd is not what we should be doing. We need to stick together as a community rather than drive a wedge between us.

 

How do you differentiate between a guy standing in line wearing a gun, and a whole group of people open carrying guns? Uh, one is a lot bigger, and DESIGNED to attract attention? Doesn't matter what we think here. Starbucks gets to decide if guns are allowed at all. 

[Jonnin]

Starbucks did not cave.

Starbuck wants one thing: to sell coffee. 

They are not putting up signs to prevent legal carry (per their press release).

They simply do not want to be the unwilling bannerman for the pro gun people.  They do not want gun toting folks making their store a hostile place for some customers.  They do not want to be seen taking sides.  The press release says no one with a legally carried gun will be bothered/questioned by their staff.   The deal is obvious... $$$.   They do not want the pro-gun demonstrations and "appreciation" stuff to drive away all their other customers.

 

There is a new unwritten and unenforced police against open carry in the stores and they will probably continue to close any stores where an organized pro gun rally is planned.  

 

Again, they just want to sell coffee.  To whoever wants it.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Jonnin

[Guest nra37922]

At least Starbucks isn't putting up the gun buster signs.   Carrying discouraged but not forbidden.  So if you HAVE to have an overpriced cup of coffee from a Starbucks carry concealed.  OR to save money, just get a Starbucks thermos and fill it at Dunkin Donuts.  Hip and frugal and the difference is a better/cheaper cup of coffee.

[jgradyc]

I didn't read the last two pages... just skimmed over them... but I don't see a problem here.

 

I read the Starbucks' letter.  It says, "we respectfully request that customers do not bring weapons into our stores." Then, it continues to say if a customer carries into store, to "welcome and serve customers as usual. ...do not confront or ask them to leave."

 

In other words, you can carry... just don't be an a$$ about it.

[mikegideon]

Thebangswitch weighs in...

 

http://www.thebangswitch.com/our-own-worst-enemy/

[KahrMan]

Starbucks did not cave.

Starbuck wants one thing: to sell coffee. 

They are not putting up signs to prevent legal carry (per their press release).

They simply do not want to be the unwilling bannerman for the pro gun people.  They do not want gun toting folks making their store a hostile place for some customers.  They do not want to be seen taking sides.  The press release says no one with a legally carried gun will be bothered/questioned by their staff.   The deal is obvious... $$$.   They do not want the pro-gun demonstrations and "appreciation" stuff to drive away all their other customers.

 

There is a new unwritten and unenforced police against open carry in the stores and they will probably continue to close any stores where an organized pro gun rally is planned.  

 

Again, they just want to sell coffee.  To whoever wants it.

 

 

I didn't read the last two pages... just skimmed over them... but I don't see a problem here.

 

I read the Starbucks' letter.  It says, "we respectfully request that customers do not bring weapons into our stores." Then, it continues to say if a customer carries into store, to "welcome and serve customers as usual. ...do not confront or ask them to leave."

 

In other words, you can carry... just don't be an a$$ about it.

 

What these guys said.  Some people need to take a chill pill.  Starbucks is not banning guns and not asking individuals who carry to leave their store.  That is what is important.

[Chucktshoes]

http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2013/09/qotd-nearly-perfect-overlap-edition.html?m=1

I won't summarize as it will do a disservice to Tam, but she makes quite the sharp point.

[E4 No More]

Please read the comments by their corporate office. They don't care about guns one way or the other. They just want to be left out of the debate. They're asking nicely, and instead of digesting that like adults who seek to understand both sides of the debate, we're choosing to act offended and get hostile with this company. I got no problem gettin fighting mad, but I want to make sure it's for the right reasons. This ain't it. There's a lot of smart folks here, you included. I don't see why you can't understand what they're saying. This has absolutely nothing to do with people who choose to carry, concealed or otherwise.

The message was repeated this morning on Fox which I saw already. Guns not welcomed in the store means all guns open and concealed. I got that they are asking nicely enough and not "properly" posting as a policy for wiggle room. I don't care about the strengh of their message because the meaning is clear...at least as far as I'm concerned.

[TMF]

The message was repeated this morning on Fox which I saw already. Guns not welcomed in the store means all guns open and concealed. I got that they are asking nicely enough and not "properly" posting as a policy for wiggle room. I don't care about the strengh of their message because the meaning is clear...at least as far as I'm concerned.

I think you're choosing to ignore what they're saying by simplifying this into a pro or anti gun argument. If you could look at this objectively you would see there's nothing to get upset about. There is no bad guy here other than the pro/anti crowd that is demanding Starbucks take a side. They make coffee. Shall I write AutoZone and ask them to let me protest abortions on their property, then get mad when they say no and accuse them of wanting dead babies? No, they just want to sell car parts.

I seem to recall when the Chick Fil A fiasco was going on, many here were angry at the libs who chose to start a boycott simply because of the religious beliefs of the owner. Folks were saying that his personal beliefs had nothing to do with the business. Well in this case Starbucks has chosen not to take any side or stance at all. They just want to be left the hell out of it. How do you not see that? Really?

[Erik88]

 Well in this case Starbucks has chosen not to take any side or stance at all. They just want to be left the hell out of it. How do you not see that? Really?

 

Seems pretty clear to me that they are taking a side. I'm not longer welcome in their store. How could that be any more clear?

 

I understand the point you are trying to make but the bottom line is that they went from honoring state laws to now saying guns are no longer welcome.

 

The anti-gun crowd got their wish.

 

Starbucks reasoning for this decision doesn't matter, the point has been made.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Erik88

[E4 No More]

Seems pretty clear to me that they are taking a side. I'm not longer welcome in their store. How could that be any more clear?

 

I understand the point you are trying to make but the bottom line is that they went from honoring state laws to now saying guns are no longer welcome.

 

The anti-gun crowd got their wish.

 

Starbucks reasoning for this decision doesn't matter, the point has been made.

Agreed!

[Jonnin]

Seems pretty clear to me that they are taking a side. I'm not longer welcome in their store. How could that be any more clear?

 

I understand the point you are trying to make but the bottom line is that they went from honoring state laws to now saying guns are no longer welcome.

 

The anti-gun crowd got their wish.

 

Starbucks reasoning for this decision doesn't matter, the point has been made.

 

In what way are you unwelcome?  They are not and will not be posted no-guns.  They will not say a word to you if you have one, will not ask you to leave etc.   It sounds neutral to me.

[MacGyver]

What these guys said.  Some people need to take a chill pill.  Starbucks is not banning guns and not asking individuals who carry to leave their store.  That is what is important.

Yet.  Give the "pro-2A" guys a week or so to force their hand.

[RobertNashville]

Starbucks stinks, anyway. Worst tasting, overpriced, burned coffee... I've never understood the deal, anyway.

 

McD has the best coffee, really.

I have to disagree with you there a bit.

 

I used to love McDonals's coffee until they went to this BS practice of THEM dispensing the cream/sweeter into their coffee for you and no longer letting you go off to the side and putting in/not putting in whatever and how many of those items you wanted.*   I've never been able to get their coffee to taste "right" to me since they started that stupid practice so I simply stopped getting their coffee any longer.

 

 

 * There may be individual restaurants where they still so it the "old way" but none of the ones around me let you do your own.

[RobertNashville]

I don't really care what Starbuck's "stand" is...if they post then I'll go somewhere else (not that I go to Starbucks all that often)...if they don't post then this seems like a lot of anger for no good reason.

[DaveS]

Seems pretty clear to me that they are taking a side. I'm not longer welcome in their store. How could that be any more clear?

 

I understand the point you are trying to make but the bottom line is that they went from honoring state laws to now saying guns are no longer welcome.

 

The anti-gun crowd got their wish.

 

Starbucks reasoning for this decision doesn't matter, the point has been made.

CONCEALED "out of sight, out of mind"...right?

 

DaveS

[mav]

Damn TMF, what kind of coffee did you have this morning?  I don't always agree with some of the stuff you post, but I think you have been pretty much spot on in this thread.

[Mike.357]

I can't stand when someone takes a side and then states they aren't taking sides.  It is obvious what Starbucks intent here is.

 

That said if I want one of their fruity jacked up with caffeine drinks then I will go get one.  Until they properly post I will still feel welcome to do so.

[Sam1]

I am sorry, but it's people like you giving up rights over the last 100+ years that have caused us to be in the mess we currently are. We don't politically have much of a way to stand up for our rights now because to get laws back to being Constitutional, we have to sue and that costs a lot of money. Disagree with me on that? How long have we had republicans running TN and how far have our gun laws moved towards being Constitutional??? Hint: almost none. It's time for a line to be drawn our country. Are you for the Constitution or are you against it? Our country wasn't founded by people who didn't push the edge. Heck, these guys are doing LEGAL things, while our founders were doing ILLEGAL things according to the king.

Starbucks may be caught in the middle, but guess what, it's run by PEOPLE, it's not a soulless identity. We need to remember this fact about business AND government. It has become us vs them because we've strayed so far fromt he Constitution. How did the gay community get so accepted in our country? How did black people get their rights equal to whites? How did abortion become legal? Hint: it wasn't by staying in the closet or being quiet! Yet, so many in the gun community seem very content to be very quiet about it and want to force others to be also.

It seems like we are winning, but ultimately we are losing because we aren't winning the entire war, just battles here and there. It's great when we win court cases, but if people are not comfortable with seeing a firearm in public, we have won NOTHING. Court cases don't change peoples mind and that's what matters in the long run. Maybe if more people started OC'ing in an everyday fashion the rifle carrying wouldn't be weird and wouldn't really be necessary. People will not accept things until they are around them in an everyday fashion. This is very basic human psychology that the gun community has ignored.

And to those of you who call OC'ers and especially rifle OC'ers (where it's legal), jerks, dicks, (insert insult name here), don't take offensive if they call you the same thing back for exercising your 1st amend rights. I think it's shameful that you throw such people under the bus and it's more hurtful to our cause than what they are doing because it gives the anti gun people ammo. If it's legal you can say, I wouldn't do that, but it's legal and I support legal activity. It certainly would be a better use of your time and energy to go combat the anti's than grumbling about the tactics that other people are using.

There is a MAJOR difference between people exercising a right, and instigating. When they do pre-incident interviews on film and have a dozen cameras rolling while they continue to push the issue, that is instigating.

We don't lose rights because people use common sense, we lose them because morons see how far they can push the limits of them.

[Sam1]

I can't stand when someone takes a side and then states they aren't taking sides. It is obvious what Starbucks intent here is.

That said if I want one of their fruity jacked up with caffeine drinks then I will go get one. Until they properly post I will still feel welcome to do so.

I agree with tgo david's breakdown; don't think Starbucks cares about guns at all, I think they are concerned about the idiots going in and asking for verification, then sitting on their porches and arguing the law when police show up.

Bad publicity for the business

[bersaguy]

I have never been to a Starbucks because i cannot afford their coffee but I have one about 5 blocks from my home and drive past it every time I go to Krogers. Now this is just my opinion but if someone really likes the coffee at Starbucks that much why can't they just go through the drive up window, get what they want and that way both Starbucks and the customer both get what they want. I'm sure that they don't have that rule on their drive up window also..............jmho    Like I said I don't have a dog in this race because I don't trade there anyway.