Adjustable gas block issue. Wilson Combat

[Luke E.]

 Okay, I recently put together an AR in Blackout and went with a pistol length gas port with an adjustable block. I shot subsonic ammo and it ran fine and I have shot supers and they have run fine as well but the recoil is pretty crazy for a Blackout and even a .223 for that matter. I started adjusting the block until I was all the way in and fired a round and there was zero noticeable difference between full open and full closed. I pulled the block off and completely removed the adjustment screw to see if maybe there was something in there keeping it from seating all the way but it was clean as a whistle. I can blow through the gas tube with the screw in the closed position pretty much as easy as I can with the adjustment screw removed completely. When I say pretty much I mean the added resistance in the closed position is barely noticeable.

 Has anyone else ever had an issue like this of had a Wilson Combat adjustable block that worked correctly? 

I also forgot to add, Another TGO member and myself built identical rifles and his block is having the same issue as mine.

[Lumber_Jack]

That's interesting. A lot of adjustable gas blocks are meant to "tune" the gas so the adjustments might not be supper noticeable. Unless the block has a full shut adjustment (some do, some don't)

I would pay less attention to recoil and more attention to brass ejection pattern and does it lock the bolt back on the last round.

I have a Siekins Precision adjustable block on my .300BLK and it's a little under gassed at the current adjustment, but cycles both fine, I just get brass ejection about 5 O'clock and off the deflector. Nothing enough to warrant an adjustment yet.

[Luke E.]

I have payed attention to everything trying to find a difference. Even with the block cut off it is beating my lower to pieces with the brass. I'm not talking about the finish either, it is beating the aluminum up. It will completely cycle 220gr subs with it closed completely.

[Lumber_Jack]

It will completely cycle 220gr subs with it closed completely.

That's not right. I'd call Wilson.

[Luke E.]

That's not right. I'd call Wilson.

I have tried twice now and their "AR" guy was supposed to call me back but has yet to do it. I've been to busy with work lately to camp out on the phone so I'm awaiting the 1st opportunity I have. We had to file the outsides of them a bit so the hand guards would clear so I hope they don't give us a hard time.

[RWF]

when did Wilson start making adjustable gas blocks? where were they when I had my coupons. not to worry Wilson has always dpne right by me. every brand of gas block I have will let you shut off the gas

Edited September 18, 2013 by RWF

[c.a.willard]

I'd take it of and inspect both the gas setting screw and the threads inside.  You may have a bur that makes it feel like its in a lower gas position when its really not. 

 

It also may not be tapped far enough.

 

With it off place a small punch or nail in the end where the screw goes and determine how far back the drilled hole goes.  Then do the same thing with the screw putting it as far in as it will go, see if there is a difference between the two lengths

[Oh Shoot]

I have payed attention to everything trying to find a difference. Even with the block cut off it is beating my lower to pieces with the brass.

 

How can it possibly be hitting the lower? Did you mean "upper"?

 

And do you mean the shell deflector part? If it's hitting that each time, all else being up to snuff, it's UNDERgassed on a 5.56 config, I guess same on a BLK too?

 

- OS

Edited September 18, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Luke E.]

when did Wilson start making adjustable gas blocks? where were they when I had my coupons. not to worry Wilson has always dpne right by me. every brand of gas block I have will let you shut off the gas

 

They were fairly new when we purchased them.

 

I'd take it of and inspect both the gas setting screw and the threads inside.  You may have a bur that makes it feel like its in a lower gas position when its really not. 

 

It also may not be tapped far enough.

 

With it off place a small punch or nail in the end where the screw goes and determine how far back the drilled hole goes.  Then do the same thing with the screw putting it as far in as it will go, see if there is a difference between the two lengths

 

 Like I mentioned earlier, I pulled it all the way apart and checked for any foreign material and found nothing. The blocks came all the way in the closed position (didn't realize it at the time) and were jammed in there pretty good, good enough that it had marred a bit down in the bottom of the hole. I went ahead and colored the entire end of the screw with a sharpie and ran it back in, it is bottoming out. Here's where the weirdness starts, the bottom of the adjustment screw hole is tapered but the adjustment screw itself is cylindrical with a flat end so there is really no way for it to work. I'm wondering if the adjustment screws didn't make it all the way through their manufacturing process...

[Luke E.]

How can it possibly be hitting the lower? Did you mean "upper"?

 

And do you mean the shell deflector part? If it's hitting that each time, all else being up to snuff, it's UNDERgassed on a 5.56 config, I guess same on a BLK too?

 

- OS

 

 Yes I did  did mean the upper, sorry I was at my bday dinner with family and was pretending to be paying attention as I typed  :ugh: . It is most definitely not undergassed, it is a pistol port 16" barrel that cycles subsonic rounds perfectly with the gas block closed completely, now i'm throwing supersonics in the same mix so if it is getting more than enough gas to run subs then it is naturally going to be overgassed when you throw a pretty hot super in there. If i'm missing something let me know for sure because it's got me baffled. Either way, there should be a difference between full open and full closed and there definitely is almost zero difference. I believe it has something to do with the adjustment screw being flat nosed and the bottom of its hole being tapered but idk.

[Oh Shoot]

 Yes I did  did mean the upper, sorry I was at my bday dinner with family and was pretending to be paying attention as I typed  :ugh: . It is most definitely not undergassed, it is a pistol port 16" barrel that cycles subsonic rounds perfectly with the gas block closed completely, now i'm throwing supersonics in the same mix so if it is getting more than enough gas to run subs then it is naturally going to be overgassed when you throw a pretty hot super in there. If i'm missing something let me know for sure because it's got me baffled. Either way, there should be a difference between full open and full closed and there definitely is almost zero difference. I believe it has something to do with the adjustment screw being flat nosed and the bottom of its hole being tapered but idk.

 

I was going on ejection pattern only. If extractor and ejector are up to snuff, here is general rule of thumb, at least for 5.56/.223:

 

 

It's possible maybe the gas block is not optimally positioned over barrel port.  Free float handguard I guess? If so, did you add the scootch of space that the normal handguard bracket would have occupied?

 

Why are you so sure it's OVER gassed? I don't know what could significantly increase felt recoil on an AR where at least with .223 there just ain't much, though actually you intimated that .223 is more than .300. ("recoil is pretty crazy for a Blackout and even a .223 for that matter").

 

- OS

Edited September 18, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[c.a.willard]

Another general question.  does it lock back on the last shot. 

 

It's odd because your brass ejection is indicative of short stroking (Usually a result of being under gassed)  But the recoil you describe is typical of an over-gassed gun. 

 

It is possible for an over gassed gun to cause short stroking.  It's similar to short stroking cause by over pressure rounds.  When the round is fired the rapid expansion of gasses causes the round to expand and grip on the chamber walls.  If enough gas reaches the carrier before the case pressures have lowered enough it will stick in the chamber slightly.  Causing wasted energy in the carrier.  By the time the pressures drops enough for the round to come loose you have lost a lot of your gas, causing it to short stroke like an under gassed gun.  It may also increase felt recoil.

 

Pistol length systems have a higher pressure in general because the entire process is taking place sooner. 

 

 

You should still notice a difference between fully closed and fully open on the gas block.  Holes with one opening will usually be tapered at the end, because the tap itself is tapered.  So the taper is not necessarily a problem.  It is only a problem if the hole wasn't drilled deep enough for screw to cover the port on the barrel. 

 

 

With it off tighten the screw all the way down, does it completely cover the opening where the gas enters the gas block?

[Dolomite_supafly]

You do realize there are two setscrews in the hole? One adjusts the gas flow and the outward one locks the inner setscrew in place.

 

You remove the outer setscrew to gain access to the inner setscrew. Once the adjustements are made with the inner setscrew then the outer setscrew is screwed back in and locks the innner setscrew's adjustments in place.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Dolomite_supafly

[Oh Shoot]

....

It is possible for an over gassed gun to cause short stroking.  It's similar to short stroking cause by over pressure rounds.  When the round is fired the rapid expansion of gasses causes the round to expand and grip on the chamber walls.  If enough gas reaches the carrier before the case pressures have lowered enough it will stick in the chamber slightly.  Causing wasted energy in the carrier.  By the time the pressures drops enough for the round to come loose you have lost a lot of your gas, causing it to short stroke like an under gassed gun.  It may also increase felt recoil.

 

Well, maybe, but carrier/bolt is still getting the whole gas pressure impulse immediately like always, and usually with any kind of stuck casing, will just skip over the rim and leave brass fully or partially in chamber -- or if extractor is super gripper, like with the stiffer spring and O ring setup, will just tear right through it, brass and steel casings alike.

 

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

You do realize there are two setscrews in the hole? One adjusts the gas flow and the outward one locks the inner setscrew in place.

 

You remove the outer setscrew to gain access to the inner setscrew. Once the adjustements are made with the inner setscrew then the outer setscrew is screwed back in and locks the innner setscrew's adjustments in place.

 

Well, there's a thought. Maybe failure to read directions? :)

 

- OS

[Dolomite_supafly]

Just a thought. Not saying this is the case but I suspect it is. I am as as bad as anyone for not reading instructions but I also disassemble most new gadgets to see how they work.

[Luke E.]

I was going on ejection pattern only. If extractor and ejector are up to snuff, here is general rule of thumb, at least for 5.56/.223:

 

 

It's possible maybe the gas block is not optimally positioned over barrel port.  Free float handguard I guess? If so, did you add the scootch of space that the normal handguard bracket would have occupied?

 

Why are you so sure it's OVER gassed? I don't know what could significantly increase felt recoil on an AR where at least with .223 there just ain't much, though actually you intimated that .223 is more than .300. ("recoil is pretty crazy for a Blackout and even a .223 for that matter").

 

- OS

 

 I have checked the block/port alignment it is pretty much spot on. You are correct, it is a free float guard but the way it mounts, it's either tight or it's not. I guess my over gassed theory stems from the fact that i'm running fairly hot supers through a 16" barrel with pistol gas port and from everything i've heard or read, if I were to run a standard gas block and fire supersonic ammo through it, the result would be overgassing. Are you saying otherwise? Like I said I'm always open to learning new things.

 Whether i'm right of wrong about the over gassed under gassed thing is really not my problem (although I would like to know that as well). My real problem here is an unresponsive "adjustable gas block. 

[TripleDigitRide]

I have checked the block/port alignment it is pretty much spot on. You are correct, it is a free float guard but the way it mounts, it's either tight or it's not. I guess my over gassed theory stems from the fact that i'm running fairly hot supers through a 16" barrel with pistol gas port and from everything i've heard or read, if I were to run a standard gas block and fire supersonic ammo through it, the result would be overgassing. Are you saying otherwise? Like I said I'm always open to learning new things.
Whether i'm right of wrong about the over gassed under gassed thing is really not my problem (although I would like to know that as well). My real problem here is an unresponsive "adjustable gas block.

Did you see what Dolomite posted about there being 2 screws?

[Luke E.]

Another general question.  does it lock back on the last shot. 

 

It's odd because your brass ejection is indicative of short stroking (Usually a result of being under gassed)  But the recoil you describe is typical of an over-gassed gun. 

 

It is possible for an over gassed gun to cause short stroking.  It's similar to short stroking cause by over pressure rounds.  When the round is fired the rapid expansion of gasses causes the round to expand and grip on the chamber walls.  If enough gas reaches the carrier before the case pressures have lowered enough it will stick in the chamber slightly.  Causing wasted energy in the carrier.  By the time the pressures drops enough for the round to come loose you have lost a lot of your gas, causing it to short stroke like an under gassed gun.  It may also increase felt recoil.

 

Pistol length systems have a higher pressure in general because the entire process is taking place sooner. 

 

 

You should still notice a difference between fully closed and fully open on the gas block.  Holes with one opening will usually be tapered at the end, because the tap itself is tapered.  So the taper is not necessarily a problem.  It is only a problem if the hole wasn't drilled deep enough for screw to cover the port on the barrel. 

 

 

With it off tighten the screw all the way down, does it completely cover the opening where the gas enters the gas block?

 

 I understand the pressure differences between port locations which is why I choose what I did.  It does lock back on the last round and unless I didn't notice, it has done so without fail. My original thought about the tapered hole was just the same as yours but since nothing else has seemed to make sense, I put it back on the table of possibilities. The screw goes in far enough and even passes the gas port BUT the cylindrical end of the screw is a much smaller diameter than the bore in the area of the gas port. Its kinda hard to explain without pictures but... The end of the adjustment screw is necked down and smaller than the threaded portion of the screw, but the adjustment screw hole is the same diameter all the way down (obviously since it's a one sided hole). The business end of the adjustment screw is enough smaller than the bore that even with it screwed all the way in, it causes very little reduction in gas. Did that make any sense at all lol I can try to post pics tomorrow if it didn't.

[Luke E.]

You do realize there are two setscrews in the hole? One adjusts the gas flow and the outward one locks the inner setscrew in place.

 

You remove the outer setscrew to gain access to the inner setscrew. Once the adjustements are made with the inner setscrew then the outer setscrew is screwed back in and locks the innner setscrew's adjustments in place.

 

Yes, I sure do. lol I would sure feel like an idiot had I not have though. I even pulled the setscrew completely out just to make sure that wasn't causing a problem when I first started trying to adjust it at the range. When I got it back home I stripped it all completely down and checked it all over again and the problems still remain the same.

[Luke E.]

Did you see what Dolomite posted about there being 2 screws?

 

 No, I had missed his post but I was already aware of the set screw.

[Luke E.]

Well, there's a thought. Maybe failure to read directions? :)

 

- OS

LOL nope, I wish it were that easy.

[Dolomite_supafly]

It has to be something simple.

 

On the front of the gas block there is a setscrew. That is the outer setscrew. Take it completely out. It should have a somehwat flat face like a typical set screw.

 

Now inside the hole that the first setscrew came out of there is another setscrew. Take that one out. Now this one should be different than the fist, it should have a nipple on the end.

 

It could be there there were two flat setscrews installed rather than a flat and nipple.

 

Here is a detailed picture of how it should look:

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/press/Wilson%20Combat%20Adjustable%20gas%20block%20instructions.pdf

[Luke E.]

It has to be something simple.

 

On the front of the gas block there is a setscrew. That is the outer setscrew. Take it completely out. It should have a somehwat flat face like a typical set screw.

 

Now inside the hole that the first setscrew came out of there is another setscrew. Take that one out. Now this one should be different than the fist, it should have a nipple on the end.

 

It could be there there were two flat setscrews installed rather than a flat and nipple.

 

Here is a detailed picture of how it should look:

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/press/Wilson%20Combat%20Adjustable%20gas%20block%20instructions.pdf

 

 I have the gas block, I have the breakdown from the link sitting on my bench at home and I know exactly how this thing is supposed to work. My issue is that is isn't doing it's job. There is one setscrew and one adjustment screw, the one you calling the setscrew with the nipple on it IS the adjustment screw. The actual setscrew has no bottom in the allen pocket, it is made so that you can barely slide the allen wrench in and break it loose then slide the allen wrench all the way through the setscrew and into the adjustment screw, make your adjustment, back the allen wrench out so that it is only in the setscrew, tighten setscrew and then you should be good to go BUT all the way in or all the way out makes no difference.

[Luke E.]

 OKAY!!! Well I just got off the phone with Steve @ Wilson and he said that they had a problem with what sounded like a pretty big batch of these blocks. I told him that I was I was able to bottom out the adjustment screw in the bore and he said that it wasn't necessarily an issue with the threads so much as the fact that the entire hole was not cut deep enough. He said to send them back in and he would either fix or replace both of them.

 Dolomite, To touch on your instructions non compliance idea lol He said that he gets a great many calls from folks that are not able to get their blocks to adjust only to find out that they are trying to adjust the setscrew!

 I'll post results once I get them back and try them out.

 

 Thanks, for all the help guys.