Guidelines Regarding Law Enforcement Threads on TGO

[Chucktshoes]

Your six year old may not a have a problem with my new avatar, but she might not know who it is either.  :)

His 6 year old might know a Daniel Tiger who lives in Fred's old neighborhood.

[gregintenn]

And you leveled a personal attack aimed squarely at me because you used my name. I can assure you and the mods can verify; I complained to no one about you, or the cop bashing threads. I have no problem with discussing or even arguing anything; but when it comes down to personal attacks I have to take the hits and not shoot back.

I find that you and I see eye to eye on most any subject discussed here except this one. I intend to keep my opinion on the subject to myself from now on. Perhaps you won't feel the need to be so defensive then. :hat:

[JayC]

I've been here a few cycles, this is the first time I've seen comments from the admins and mods about 'anti-government' statements including in this heads up...  and in years past the rule has been to stay away from attacking police officers as a whole for the bad deeds of a few...  not being able to comment specifically on those few bad actors.

 

Bryan has clarified the issue for me, and I'm glad he did.

 

This warning comes up about once or twice a year and has since the beginning. It will cool down for awhile then when enough new people join up that missed the last cycle the mods or David (as it used to be) will send out another reminder. It truly isn't a new thing or a personally directed thing.

 

[Guest 6.8 AR]

And you leveled a personal attack aimed squarely at me because you used my name. I can assure you and the mods can verify; I complained to no one about you, or the cop bashing threads. I have no problem with discussing or even arguing anything; but when it comes down to personal attacks I have to take the hits and not shoot back.

Now, we could take this ball and run with it, but I don't really see the point of it. So, why the high octane fuel?

 

Is there a purpose? I think it is kind of what Mac is addressing, in a roundabout way.

[mikegideon]

It's a good thing Obama's not a cop, 'cause I'm fixing to bash him again any minute :)

Edited September 18, 2013 by mikegideon

[DaveTN]

Dave, I don't think anyone on this forum would have thought that about you; it is just not your personality.  Anyway, you are much too cantankerous and opinionated to do that.   ;)

I was trying to stay out of this thread..... but I can't.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

This is the exact issue I have with all of this.  I think the LEO topic was used as the example and I am sure the intention was actually to point out something much bigger which is basically, think about what you say.  Again, if the rule for LEO threads is that it must relate to TN, then all threads should relate to TN if that is the standard by which we are going by now.  I don't actually think that was the intention, but used as an example which probably in the end wasn't the best.  I could also be wrong on this, maybe they really do want to limit all of this to just things in TN.

 

We have people from more than just TN on this board and I think the goal is to discuss all kinds of topics, even if some aren't directly related to TN, or even guns for that matter. If someone's only goal is to bash a specific person or group of people, please do so with some level of thought and tact.   Robert, you are very good at this meaning you always give a good reason for your opinion, even if others disagree.

 

I have to admit, sometimes it is hard to not respond to some things in a personal way.  When someone makes a statement, especially a very opinionated statement, they should expect some level of personal response to that opinion.  Your opinion does represent you, you cannot simply hide behind your computer and say it's just my opinion so don't respond to me personally.

 

At the end of all of this, I don't think anything has changed or will change other than hopefully everyone will think a little more about what they say.  As the old adage goes, it's not what you say, it's how you say it. 

Not necessarily. An opinionated response doesn't mean it needs a personal response. Opinions can be very useful, especially

when they use some reasoning. Debate doesn't have to be personal, unless one's personal experience applies. It's the emotion

that should be most of the time left out. Emotions are why we have the political mess we have.

 

Take DUI, for example. When someone points out the political ramifications of laws concerning it, someone comes in and

counters it with their family member dying because of the DUI offender. Totally unreasonable, except by the emotion, which

needs to be addressed some other way than to be interjected into the debate about the political arguments. It happens,

and no one is trying to provoke the emotion, but someone reading the thread, or debate, hasn't taken the time to maybe

understand the original intent of the debate. I doubt anyone wants a DUI offender to drive another day, but it is the effect

of the problem that is being argued. Put bad laws on the books to make someone feel good does nothing to solve the

problem. Just making some behavior more expensive hasn't solved the problem, has it?

[MacGyver]

Your six year old may not a have a problem with my new avatar, but she might not know who it is either.  :)

you know, I'll have to ask her if she knows who that is. Is he even on anymore, even in syndication?

We're more of a Disney channel family - at least for the few hours cartoons are on and they may have the opportunity to watch TV. I never thought I would say it as a parent, but their lack of commercials for anything but other Disney cartoons during that time block is what gets them a pass.

[mav]

I am not sure, but I grew up watching Mr. Rogers.  When I was going through my rebellious teenage years, I always hated being called Mr. Rogers.  Now, I snicker when I hear it, but it doesn't bother me.  Actually, I wish had more of a demeanor like he did.

 

Anyway, I like the avatar.  It is applicable to me, so it is worth keeping.  It might even remind me to watch my tongue (fingers) and mind my manners.

[Hozzie]

Not necessarily. An opinionated response doesn't mean it needs a personal response. Opinions can be very useful, especially

when they use some reasoning. Debate doesn't have to be personal, unless one's personal experience applies. It's the emotion

that should be most of the time left out. Emotions are why we have the political mess we have.

 

Take DUI, for example. When someone points out the political ramifications of laws concerning it, someone comes in and

counters it with their family member dying because of the DUI offender. Totally unreasonable, except by the emotion, which

needs to be addressed some other way than to be interjected into the debate about the political arguments. It happens,

and no one is trying to provoke the emotion, but someone reading the thread, or debate, hasn't taken the time to maybe

understand the original intent of the debate. I doubt anyone wants a DUI offender to drive another day, but it is the effect

of the problem that is being argued. Put bad laws on the books to make someone feel good does nothing to solve the

problem. Just making some behavior more expensive hasn't solved the problem, has it?

 

I spent 10 minutes typing out a response and accidentally hit the back button.  I hate that  :pleased: .  So this time I'll keep it short.

 

I agree with you, 99% of all responses should not be personal, but sometimes I think it warrants itself as long as it is backed up by why someone feels that way.  I would hope anyone with a lick of sense would not get personal about a situation like the DUI example you give. Unfortunately, common sense isn't so common anymore.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Somehow, I like that you hit the back button. That one was fine. :D

 

Taking things in a personal direction also leads to someone saying things that are really no one else's

business. I understand the emotion. You can't live without some emotions in your life, but you can make

reasonable laws addressing problems by leaving the emotions out. The emotion is probably what made

it the issue desirous of the law.

[Oh Shoot]

you know, I'll have to ask her if she knows who that is. Is he even on anymore, even in syndication?

 

TV Guide search didn't find any listings

[RobertNashville]

Robert; I spent many years in Akron (lived off S. Arlington then Firestone Park) and that story is very interesting to say the least. Just thought I'd mention that since you lived in Akron.

 

DaveS

Actually Dave, while I'm from Ohio and still have family there, I never lived in Akron (New Holland, actually and I doubt you've ever heard of it) but I know Akron pretty well.

[MacGyver]

TV Guide search didn't find any listings

Neither of my children knew who he was.  We found some old episodes on PBS's site.  They did in fact recognize his neighborhood from Daniel Tiger.  I will say that Fred Rogers is timeless.  He was a hit with my kids.

[Guest TresOsos]

I saw a good joke about a Doctor and a State Trooper yesterday...afraid to post it.  Oh and where do you post humor around here so that it's taken as humor.

[JAB]

I can't quite see how a "bad LEO" in another state has any real relevance to Tennessee other than something to talk about.

 

In any case, the direction was clearly given that such stories taking place in other states are not to be on TGO any longer so I'd say the relevance is somewhat moot anyway.  That aside; it's been my experience that any "ban LEO" story gets PLENTY of play/discussion of dozens of other forums...if that's what someone wants' to discuss TGO is hardly the only place where one can do that. ;)

 

Actually, unless I missed something in the interveneing six pages (and that is entirely possible) what MacGyver posted was:

 

"If it's not happening here in Tennessee, then I'm not sure it needs to be posted here."

 

"I'm not sure it needs to be posted here," is not a directive, "...clearly given that such stories taking places in other states are not to be on TGO any longer..."  It is simply a statement that the mod is not sure that they need to be posted, here.  It is my understanding that the intent of this thread is to discuss these issues, hence my post regarding why I believe posts regarding such incidents are relevant (at least as long as some members travel outside the state.)

Edited September 19, 2013 by JAB

[RobertNashville]

Actually, unless I missed something in the interveneing six pages (and that is entirely possible) what MacGyver posted was:

 

"If it's not happening here in Tennessee, then I'm not sure it needs to be posted here."

 

"I'm not sure it needs to be posted here," is not a directive, "...clearly given that such stories taking places in other states are not to be on TGO any longer..."  It is simply a statement that the mod is now sure that they need to be posted, here.  It is my understanding that the intent of this thread is to discuss these issues, hence my post regarding why I believe posts regarding such incidents are relevant (at least as long as some members travel outside the state.)

Okay...whatever...take the "suggestion" in any way want...I'm not going to argue with you about as I'm really done with this thread.   :shrug:

Edited September 19, 2013 by RobertNashville

[TGO David]

I saw a good joke about a Doctor and a State Trooper yesterday...afraid to post it.  Oh and where do you post humor around here so that it's taken as humor.

 

Tread lightly with the sarcasm.  We've all got a good sense of humor, but snarkiness might earn a vacation.

[JAB]

What?  I was called to a wreck scene this weekend and the woman involved must have stated that she had a handgun on her 6 or 7 times almost like she was bragging. I told her that if she did not draw hers I would not draw mine.  Almost like she was trying to set me up. I told her I was pro 2nd and wish more honest people had permits.  3 other officers happen to stop by and she repeated her comment about being armed. BTW most all LEO are pro 2nd.

 

It sounds to me like that lady was an idiot - or maybe extremely new to firearms carry and nervous, especially after having just been involved in a wreck?  When I was involved in a wreck last year (not my fault - guy ran a redlight), I put my firearm in the glove compartment before the responding officer arrived just in the interest of keeping things as uncomplicated as possible.  As I was outside my vehicle the whole time he was interviewing me for his report, I didn't say anything about my firearm.  No reason to even bring it up, as far as I could see.

 

I probably wasn't very clear in my last statement.  When I said that I believe the problem to be systemic and run along departmental lines, what I meant was that I believe that some departments/agencies have systemic problems that permeate the department from the top down and can't be explained away by the idea that there might be 'one or two bad seeds'.  Instead, in such cases, I believe that the department as a whole (well, the majority, anyhow) is a 'bad seed'.  That certainly does not mean that all LEAs or departments are systemically flawed nor that the entire system of law enforcement in the country is flawed (although I do wholeheartedly believe that the continued militarization of police forces is, at least to some extent, a nation-wide, systemic problem.)

 

I am also not talking solely about carry related interactions although that is part of it.  I was trying to avoid mentioning specific departments as examples but hey, what the heck:

 

In the small town that is closest to where I live, any and all interactions I have ever had with LEO (Loudon City or County) have been roughly 99.999% 'positive'.  In fact, I can think of only one interaction that was not and that involved an officer who was known to be...well...a jerk (and that was twenty years ago.)  Otherwise, I generally actually enjoy running into the local fellahs in a store, gas station, etc. and will sometimes stop just to chat (I went to high school with some of them but don't know some of the others from the man in the moon.)  For the most part, they are friendly and relaxed while still presenting a professional demeanor.

 

For that matter, last year I was at a local auction that a local officer was also attending (off duty.)  He got a call during the auction and asked the auctioneer to announce that someone had hit a deer out near the Co-Op.  It was still alive but was going to have to be put down and the officers on scene wondered if anyone wanted it.  I raised my hand and Bobby (the officer) told me they'd be waiting for me to get there.  Well, I arrived as quickly as I could and one of the officers on scene put the poor thing out of its misery.  When I told them (just to be on the safe side) that I am a permit holder and that I was armed, I might as well have said, "Hey, guys, I'm wearing tennis shoes," for the reaction that it got - didn't bother them in the least.  Once the animal was out of its misery, one of the officers even helped me load it into the back of my truck.  Seeing me wiping the blood from my hands on the grass, another officer said, "Come over to my patrol car - I keep some paper towels in there just for things like this," and he proceeded to give me some paper towels to wipe my hands.  Great bunch of guys.  Something tells me that you and the other LEO in your department are probably a lot like those guys.

 

Then there is the opposite side of the coin - the Knox County Sheriff's Office.  Now, I haven't lived in Knox County since J.J. Jones replaced Hutchison as Sheriff so things may well have changed.  That said, while I knew some of the 'Schools Division' officers (and some of the 'Special Deputies" before that) and really liked them (in fact, one of my best friends used to be a 'Special Deputy' who worked night security at the zoo), I cannot remember ever having one, single positive interaction with a regular deputy of that department.  Not one.

 

I was stopped once for having a tail light out (which wasn't, btw) and proceeded to be grilled with questions like, "What are you doing in this neighborhood?"  Well, I lived there.  Yeah, it was the 'hood but I still didn't appreciate being stopped and interrogated in a confrontation manner.  Some minorities talk about being stopped for 'driving while black', well,  basically I was stopped for 'driving while white' (it wasn't just what he asked that bothered me but his demeanor, tone of voice, etc.)

 

Another time some friends and I were going in to a local pizzeria to eat and we noticed three KCSO patrol cars in the lot.  One of them had left his headlights on and one of the ladies with me said, "We should let them know when we get inside."  My response was, "They have extra strong batteries so they don't have to worry about it.  Besides, those are Knox County Sheriff's cars - I wouldn't expect a friendly interacton."  Thinking I was just being anti-LEO or something, after we were seated and ordered drinks, she approached the table where the three deputies were sitting, waited for them to look at her and said, "Excuse me, sorry to interrupt your meal.  I just wanted to let you know that one of you left your headlights on.  I'd hate for you to go out to a dead battery."  Their response was - all three of them - to look at her for a couple of seconds with a look I can only describe as disgust, as if she were something they had scraped off of their boot - and then go back to their conversation, totally dismissing her, without saying a word to her.  Not an, "Okay," not a "Thanks for telling us," nothing.  After they left, she said to me, "Boy, you weren't kidding - they really are a bunch of jerks."  To which I replied, "Yep.  I told you."

 

See, when I first started living in Knox County, I tried treating members of the KCSO who I would pass on the street, in a store, etc. the same way I treat the LEO where I am from.  I'd smile and ask, "How are you doing," or something similar only to receive - and I mean every, single time - that same look of disgust and disdain at my apparently not knowing my proper place and daring to speak to them.  So, then, that was NOT a problem of a few, bad seeds.  As I said, I have not lived in Knox County since Jones became Sheriff and it is quite possible that the departmental 'culture' has changed under his leadership.  Also, I have obviously not met or interacted with every, single deputy in the county so there may well be plenty of them who are nice, courteous and professional - I just never met any of them.

 

Maybe it was just because Loudon is a small town while Knoxville is a city?  I don't think so.  A couple of years ago we went on a cruise that departed from New York City.  There were several New Yorkers on the cruise with us so I can say with some confidence that the average person living there seems to be pretty rude.  That said, every LEO (realizing that NY has a bunch of different types of LEO from transit to port authority and so on) with whom I had any inteaction was friendly, professional and courteous (and taking a cruise out of New York in a post 9/11 world, trust me - I saw plenty of LEO.)  Not only that but in Queens (where the hotel we stayed in was located) I even stopped and asked one officer if he could tell me where a restaurant to which we were walking was located.  He was, again, very courteous and pointed out the direction we needed to go.  Now, I honestly have no desire to go back to New York City but I do have to say that the LEO I saw there seemed to be a bunch of decent folks.

 

Then there was the time I happened to cross paths with the then Sheriff of Vonore, TN as I was going in to my favorite LGS and he was coming out.  He spied the .357 on my hip and said, "Hey, you going in to the range to do some shooting?"  When I said that I was, he responded, "That's great!  I love to see people practice and keep their skills up."  Talk about a carry friendly LEO!

 

On the other hand, there have been incidences in Knoxville recently such as the Knoxville Police Officers who kicked the crap out of a suspect after he was already cuffed and proned out on the ground - while other cops just stood by and watched - and then some of their supervisors attempted to help cover the incident up.  If things like that aren't systemic then I don't know what is.

Edited September 19, 2013 by JAB

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

With regards to the post above me..

I am currently in a class that involves State Troopers and I asked the question on how to handle a situation if you are pulled over and you are a HCP holder. This is what the State Trooper told me..

If you get pulled over and carrying( either on the body or in the glove box or where ever)  When he walks up to the window and asks you for your papers  tell him that you are a re HCP holder and that you have are carrying and where it is located at.Keep you hand on the steering wheel at all times. He will either tell you thanks for telling him or /and prohably  will tell you to keep your hand on the steering wheel. After that it is up to him how to proceed with it.

I can tell you that THP is much happier if you keep your hands on the steering wheel .And I am sure that goes for the PD also.

[JAB]

With regards to the post above me..

I am currently in a class that involves State Troopers and I asked the question on how to handle a situation if you are pulled over and you are a HCP holder. This is what the State Trooper told me..

If you get pulled over and carrying( either on the body or in the glove box or where ever)  When he walks up to the window and asks you for your papers  tell him that you are a re HCP holder and that you have are carrying and where it is located at.Keep you hand on the steering wheel at all times. He will either tell you thanks for telling him or /and prohably  will tell you to keep your hand on the steering wheel. After that it is up to him how to proceed with it.

I can tell you that THP is much happier if you keep your hands on the steering wheel .And I am sure that goes for the PD also.

 

Probably good advice - although TN is not a 'must inform' state.  The one time I have been involved in a routine traffic stop (was a passenger) since obtaining my HCP, I kept my carry gun in my pocket and kept my mouth shut.  Nothing came up about it and we went on our way (driver got a warning for a just-expired tag.)  Personally, in that case I saw no reason to bring it up and I still believe that was the correct course of action.

 

What I was talking about above, though, was a different situation.  I was involved in a wreck where a guy ran a red light.  I was able to pull my vehicle onto the shoulder.  By the time LEO responded to the call that there had been an accident, I had already placed my firearm in the glove compartment of my vehicle (which, although damaged, was still drivable) and had exited my vehicle.  I already had my license, insurance info, etc. ready so there was no need for me to get back into my truck until the officer released me to leave the scene.  As the firearm was in my truck and I wasn't and as it was in the glove compartment, out of sight, I again saw no reason to even bring it up.  My license is in a little bi-fold insert that is carried in my wallet and my HCP is in the other side of the bi-fold so I can access both easily if I need to so I am sure the officer saw the HCP as I handed the entire bi-fold to him.  He didn't even comment on the HCP or ask if I was armed so I didn't say anything about it, either.

 

The other time - when the officers were helping me load the unfortunate deer into my truck and I did decide to inform - standing in a field beside the highway at night with three or four armed officers I figured it was better to say something than have a potential misunderstanding.  Like I said, they didn't even seem to give it a second thought.

Edited September 19, 2013 by JAB

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

You are right:) You do not have to tell them because they will find out once they run your licence anyway.

Once he finds out that you do and he didnt know before hand,and you are fiddling around with your hands etc ,it might go a different way.I am not saying it would , was just a suggestion:)

I dont know..This is just what he told me and most Troopers prefer this to a person fiddling around or grabbing things .

Anyway..Just a FYI:)

Everyone does their own thing anyway.

 

I never have been pulled over,ever... I wouldnt know either. :)

 

Oh and he also said its alwasy a good idea to have your papers ready by the time he aproaches the vehicle...makes things a lot smoother.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Sour Kraut

[tnguy]

I often don't carry and don't bother to inform cops when I don't.

 

I have had extra cops turn up when I informed them I had a HCP and was carrying (maybe just a coincidence).

 

I have never, as far as I know, got preferential treatment for handing my HCP over (no moreso than not doing so). This, even on one where I though they could have let it slide.

 

Careful cops will always be on the lookout whether you have a HCP or not. As we all know, you don't need a HCP to carry illegally and it's the work of milliseconds to draw and fire. It's largely irrelevant to their job. (Though I do want them to be warned in advance if I am carrying).

[Raoul]

I often don't carry and don't bother to inform cops when I don't.
 
I have had extra cops turn up when I informed them I had a HCP and was carrying (maybe just a coincidence).
 
I have never, as far as I know, got preferential treatment for handing my HCP over (no moreso than not doing so). This, even on one where I though they could have let it slide.
 
Careful cops will always be on the lookout whether you have a HCP or not. As we all know, you don't need a HCP to carry illegally and it's the work of milliseconds to draw and fire. It's largely irrelevant to their job. (Though I do want them to be warned in advance if I am carrying).

Oddly enough I was just thinking about this issue. The last 3 years have a little difficult in my neighborhood. I can think of 4 times when I've been in a situation where the police had to show up and I was OC'ing. Not one time was I asked for my HCP.

[Garufa]

Oh and he also said its alwasy a good idea to have your papers ready by the time he aproaches the vehicle...makes things a lot smoother.

 

You might want to ask him if it's a good idea for one to be fidgeting about the car, leaning over to the glove compartment and whatnot in search for papers while he's approaching the vehicle.

 

It's been a long time since I was pulled over but when it does happen my hands are 10 and 2 on the steering wheel from the second I'm pulled over until told otherwise.