Guidelines Regarding Law Enforcement Threads on TGO

[MacGyver]

All,

 

I wanted to take a few minutes to discuss the anti-law enforcement trend I've been seeing a lot of recently in threads here on TGO.  The heart of the matter is that with almost 20,000 members we have a diverse community, and these threads are affecting the sense of community that both our staff and our core members work so hard to sustain.  As such, I'd like for people to be careful in expressing their opinions, and check their motivations when it comes to posting topics about interactions with law enforcement. 

 

Here is a short list of guidelines that we'll be following:

 

1. If it's not happening here in Tennessee, then I'm not sure it needs to be posted here.  An open carrier getting the "harassment" they were seeking by officers out in Seattle isn't news. 
2. On the subject of open carry getting questioned/harassed/detained by law enforcement.  I have no doubt that these people believe in what they're doing.  Ideologically, I agree with them to an extent - in that I think I should be able to carry where I want in whatever manner that I choose.  That said, discretion is a highly underrated virtue, and that's something that seems lacking in these stories.  As a general rule, these threads aren't really newsworthy.  They're sideshows with cops doing their jobs.  Do some of them stumble through it?  Yes.  Do some of them display a more aggressive attitude than necessary?  I don't know.  Maybe?  You decided express your first amendment rights through the second amendment - you're making a statement with a deadly weapon.  You should probably expect law enforcement to be on edge in 2013.  All that said, if you want a place to post open carry stories - again if it's not in Tennessee - go over to opencarry.org or any of the other places that'll give you all the response you seek.
3. We do encourage legitimate discourse - especially when it's local.  I can't give concrete guidelines, but we'll be asking staff to use their discretion in making these judgment calls.
4. For those members that only seem to be here to have a platform to voice their anti-government stuff, don't be surprised when we give you the opportunity to find another place to have those conversations.  This is a gun board.  While we like to talk about a lot of stuff, content needs to have at least a tangential connection to the firearms community.

I understand that not every case is black and white, and that there is some room for disagreement.  This is exactly the reason we have selected the moderating staff we have.  If we shut down one of your threads, feel free to PM one of us about it.  Our moderating team is always happy to back up our reasoning, and we have reopened  threads in the past.  Give us a good reason to reopen a thread, and we will.

 

There are things that concern all of us.  The increasing militarization and paramilitarization of law enforcement should be concerning to everyone.  The growing surveillance state is a problem.  Bring good discourse and we can discuss big issues.

 

But, there are a few people on here with personal axes to grind.  I'm sorry.  This just isn't the place for that.  Are there some bad cops?  Sure.  Are there some that just come to work and dial it in?  Sure.  Are there people who do that where you work?  You bet there are.  I bet you wouldn't appreciate being lumped in with them. 

 

There are a lot of members of law enforcement on this site.  A lot.  Stop to think about it, and you'll realize quickly that the vast majority of them are on our side of the issue.  They see good citizens able to protect themselves and their families as making their jobs as police officers a lot easier.  There really are people who want to take your guns.  Your average cop walking a beat isn't one of them.

 

I know that a lot of people are stressed right now.  We're 4 years nine months into an 8-year administration that really does hate us as a group.  There are a ton of new shooters out there competing for ammo right now.  Did you know that a little over one in four legally purchased firearms in America has been bought in the last five years?  Scalpers aside, there's a lot of competition for ammo out there right now.  I know people aren't shooting a lot, and that in and of itself is stressful.  This is a time where we need to pull together as a community, not fracture it.

 

I'm going to leave this thread open so that our community can discuss it.  I'm specifically putting it in general chat before moving it to announcements so that it can be discussed.  Subjects like this are tough, and we recognize that.  There isn't a firm rule that can be set.  Yet, we simply ask that people think about what they post, watch your tone and check your motivations for doing so. 

 

We appreciate everyone's support in this matter.

[Chris]

While I am sometimes disturbed by trends I see in law enforcement or by the actions of an individual officer, I have the utmost respect for anyone who chooses a career of public service. Particularly in a field where they risk life and limb on a daily basis. 

 

It has been my experience here in TN that every LEO that I've dealt with has been professional, courteous and fully supportive of second amendment rights. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I haven't met them. 

 

So, from the bottom of my heart, I thank each and every one of you who have made the choice to serve as an LEO, Soldier or first responder of any stripe. I've seen the good work you do and I appreciate the sacrifices you and your families make for your community and your country. God Bless each and every one of you.

[Guest sL1k]

This is a gun board. While we like to talk about a lot of stuff, [i][b]content needs to have at least a tangential connection to the firearms community.

I agree with almost everything you said, but I am confused on the above statement. I was under the impression that in the general chat area anything that does not pertain to firearms/firearm community could be posted there. If I were to ask which tinfoil has better reflective properties I would think I could post it there but not after what was stated. Unless I were to ask how many layers of tinfoil would it take to stop a bullet.

Let me know if im over thinking it.

[Smith]

While I mostly agree with the intent, I think this is going to be a nightmare to arbitrarily enforce.

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

You can see the same persons constantly bashing cops and LEO in general .

I get tired of it  looking at it. I wont even read half of it anymore because some of it so ignorant and dumb.

Thank you for addressing this issue

[LagerHead]

While I mostly agree with the intent, I think this is going to be a nightmare to arbitrarily enforce.

 

That hasn't been the case in the past. Generally once we make out intent clear people know what we are talking about. Sometimes they need reminding and other times they need a vacation but it's generally not all that bad. 

[MacGyver]

I agree with almost everything you said, but I am confused on the above statement. I was under the impression that in the general chat area anything that does not pertain to firearms/firearm community could be posted there. If I were to ask which tinfoil has better reflective properties I would think I could post it there but not after what was stated. Unless I were to ask how many layers of tinfoil would it take to stop a bullet.

Let me know if im over thinking it.

This really isn't intended to apply to single threads or topics - it applies more to members who have no interest in anything but having a platform for their particular cause/obsession.  We don't boot many folks on TGO.  We don't need to.  But, to give you some insight into what I look for when trying to make these decisions, I almost always look at their last 20 posts.  If there's not a single one that's firearm related, you're probably in the wrong place.

 

While I mostly agree with the intent, I think this is going to be a nightmare to arbitrarily enforce.

You're right.  It's not going to be easy.  That's why we pay our staff so much and regularly enter them into popularity contests.  :)

[NRA]

Thank you TGO, 99% Of the people I work with are great honest folks who would give their lives up for someone they do not even know.  Unfortunately the old saying that it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch is true.

[Hozzie]

While I understand the general idea, I don't know if I completely agree that these stories should just be limited to those that take place in TN.  There are many threads that I think are relevant to firearms and are important to discuss in specific relation to how more and more law enforcement seem to be going beyond their rights.  I understand it completely, they have a tough job.  In fact, I work with them on a daily basis and probably understand their job as well as most, but let's fix this problem, these posters who seem to have a hard on for cops, not the topic itself.  

 

To be honest, I am as tired of the same people complaining about the Gays, or ObamaCare, or many of the other topics that have nothing to do with firearms.  Just because we are linked by our love of guns, doesn't mean that we agree on all things and if we start to limit what we can and can't discuss just because in this case, some use this forum to point out things they don't like, then lets stop all of the other non-relevant things as well.

 

Actually, if we want to stop one thing, lets stop posts that only start with a link.  If you take the time to link to something, at least give your opinion.  

Edited September 17, 2013 by Hozzie

[Metalhead]

Actually, if we want to stop one thing, lets stop posts that only start with a link.  If you take the time to link to something, at least give your opinion.  

 

That annoys me to no end.

[RobertNashville]

While I understand the general idea, I don't know if I completely agree that these stories should just be limited to those that take place in TN.  There are many threads that I think are relevant to firearms and are important to discuss.  To be honest, I am as tired of the same people complaining about the Gays, or ObamaCare, or many of the other topics that have nothing to do with firearms.  Just because we are linked by our love of guns, doesn't mean that we agree on all things and if we start to limit what we can and can't discuss just because in this case, some use this forum to point out bad cops, then lets stop all of the other non-relevant things as well.

 

Actually, if we want to stop one thing, lets stop posts that only start with a link.  If you take the time to link to something, at least give your opinion.  

I think I understand where you are coming from here but I can also see the view that stories that do or tend to paint police in a bad light are probably not needed here unless they have some local connection.

 

I remember the totally out of control cop in Akron, OH about a year ago that was posted here (and just about everywhere else)...I admit that I was a bit interested because I'm from Ohio and know Akron a bit but I doubt the story had any real relevance to firearms in Tennessee.

 

My other problem with these types of stories is that we hardly ever have all the facts; sometimes even weeks or months after the event and what could seem like a horrible overreaction of a bad cop when the story first breaks could be 100% the opposite once all the facts come out (assuming they ever do) but all those facts rarely get posted because by then we've all moved on to a new story.

[DaveS]

That annoys me to no end.

I'm guilty of that too. But I use it as a conversation starter, then voice my opinion or otherwise  join in on the conversation. I see nothing wrong with it. If there is, please tell me.

 

DaveS

[Hozzie]

 

 

My other problem with these types of stories is that we hardly ever have all the facts; sometimes even weeks or months after the event and what could seem like a horrible overreaction of a bad cop when the story first breaks could be 100% the opposite once all the facts come out (assuming they ever do) but all those facts rarely get posted because by then we've all moved on to a new story.

 

I think that is the case with almost any thread.  People believe what they want to believe no matter of the facts most of the time.  Half of all threads are nothing more than speculation and gossip.  Granted, facts change over time, but I don't think the rule or reason to not allow a topic can be "are all the facts available?".  

 

For me, this whole thing resolves itself if we address the people with the issue, not the topic in general.  Get rid of the one's who want nothing more than to disparage a group of people and these types of posts will become less and less.   There are times I think some of these topics are necessary, but it shouldn't be anyone's sole purpose for being on this board.

[Metalhead]

No, there isn't anything wrong with it per say. I just would much prefer if someone took a few extra seconds to copy/paste at the very least the contents of the article as a courtesy to people reading their thread. Otherwise it just strikes me as lazy.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Metalhead

[DaveS]

No, there isn't anything wrong with it per say. I just would much prefer if someone took a few extra seconds to copy/paste at the very least the contents of the article as a courtesy to people reading their thread. Otherwise it just strikes me as lazy.

Sorry, I didn't know.

 

DaveS

[Oh Shoot]

Well, my initial take is that the guideline is largely hazier than the "no denigration of public figures by twisting their names around" directive (not enforced), or the original "no gouging in the Trading Post" proviso (dropped), but not quite as hazy as the "no proselytizing regarding religious matters" admonishment.

 

No offense, but saying "I can't give concrete guidelines, but we'll be asking staff to use their discretion in making these judgment calls"  sounds in the vein of Kathleen Sebelius making ongoing decisions about Obamacare, so I guess you'll have to pass the bill for us to find out what's in it. ;) ;)

 

- OS

[enfield]

While I mostly agree with the intent, I think this is going to be a nightmare to arbitrarily enforce.

 

On the contrary, it won't be difficult at all, and it won't be arbitrary.

[Oh Shoot]

On the contrary, it won't be difficult at all, and it won't be arbitrary.

 

How can "no concrete guidelines", and "staff using their discretion in making judgment calls" be anything but "arbitrary"?

 

- OS

[broox]

On the contrary, it won't be difficult at all, and it won't be arbitrary.

You are right.  EVERYONE agrees as to what is appropriate.

[Guest nra37922]

I look at this issue like this, not my site and I don't make the rules.  The only thing I will say is that if a MOD doesn't like a thread then please close it down but at least be consistent in whatever criteria you all use. 

[MacGyver]

While I understand the general idea, I don't know if I completely agree that these stories should just be limited to those that take place in TN.  There are many threads that I think are relevant to firearms and are important to discuss in specific relation to how more and more law enforcement seem to be going beyond their rights.  I understand it completely, they have a tough job.  In fact, I work with them on a daily basis and probably understand their job as well as most, but let's fix this problem, these posters who seem to have a hard on for cops, not the topic itself.  

 

To be honest, I am as tired of the same people complaining about the Gays, or ObamaCare, or many of the other topics that have nothing to do with firearms.  Just because we are linked by our love of guns, doesn't mean that we agree on all things and if we start to limit what we can and can't discuss just because in this case, some use this forum to point out things they don't like, then lets stop all of the other non-relevant things as well.

 

Actually, if we want to stop one thing, lets stop posts that only start with a link.  If you take the time to link to something, at least give your opinion.  

There's a lot to discuss here, and a lot of it needs more good discourse than it currently gets.  We can discuss big issues here.  There are cases where individual officers are lacking in tact or judgment or both.  There are a ton of departments that need better training when it comes to this stuff.  But, it's too easy and not at all fair to the dialog to paint all cops with a bad cop brush.  

 

 

Well, my initial take is that the guideline is largely hazier than the "no denigration of public figures by twisting their names around" directive (not enforced), or the original "no gouging in the Trading Post" proviso (dropped), but not quite as hazy as the "no proselytizing regarding religious matters" admonishment.

 

No offense, but saying "I can't give concrete guidelines, but we'll be asking staff to use their discretion in making these judgment calls"  sounds in the vein of Kathleen Sebelius making ongoing decisions about Obamacare, so I guess you'll have to pass the bill for us to find out what's in it. ;) ;)

 

- OS

We're shooting from the hip here, Mac.  You've got to start somewhere.  But, we do trust our staff to make these decisions.  Even though the bench is a bit thin of late - there are really only a few active mods right now - we're depending on them to make appropriate calls, and we do discuss most moderating decisions.  Like I said earlier, we're always happy to provide reasoning for our decisions.

 

I guess at the end of the day, we're just trying to make this place somewhere people actually want to spend time.

[Guest nra37922]

....I guess at the end of the day, we're just trying to make this place somewhere people actually want to spend time.

And as far as I can tell your doing a good job.  Consistency is the key though.

[MacGyver]

One of the great draws to this site from my perspective is that it doesn't need a lot of moderating.  I probably make as many administrative actions as anyone, and I bet I've not made a dozen this year.  This community does a pretty good job of policing itself.

 

But, of late, we've noticed a few people just posting things to stir people up.  It's causing discord, and that's what tells me that we to be more involved than we typically are. 

 

I get it that we live in a stressful time.  We're in a politically charged, bipolar world.  While there really are a lot of people with moderate opinions, all of the voices are at the extreme ends of the spectrum. 

 

And it's certainly not just TGO - I was proxy to a conversation the other day with a bunch of kids.  They were discussing who they would look for if they got lost.  Out of 20 of them, not one said a police officer.  When someone asked if they might look for a police officer, several of them immediately shook their heads, no. 

 

I could certainly put together a completely concrete, "non-arbitrary" list of rules for posting about law enforcement.  But, that's our intent.  We're just trying to give some insight into what influences our decision making process.

[Hozzie]

 But, it's too easy and not at all fair to the dialog to paint all cops with a bad cop brush.  

 

I guess at the end of the day, we're just trying to make this place somewhere people actually want to spend time.

 

At the end of the day, I don't really care one way or the other about this rule because I don't typically bash cops and I don't start bashing threads so it won't affect me, but the same sentence could be used for many threads on TGO.  

 

But, it's too easy and not at all fair to the dialog to paint all gays with a flaming homo, liberal brush

But, it's too easy and not at all fair to the dialog to paint all muslims with a crazy jihadist brush

But, it's too easy and not at all fair to the dialog to paint all democrats with a "they are driving this county into the ground brush"......ok, I got ahead of myself a little on this one, but I think you get the idea.   :pleased: 

 

It seems a bit arbitrary to me that this is the only topic being addressed.  At the end of the day, I think this is a place where people want to spend time because they can discuss these items.  I would argue that one of the reasons many like to discuss these types of items here is because we do have such a large membership and we enjoy the verbal debate with people whom for the most part we know where they stand and in most cases respect enough to agree to disagree. 

 

It's the Staff's call to how they want to handle it, but it should be applied across the board, not just to "bad cops".

Edited September 17, 2013 by Hozzie

[Oh Shoot]

There's a lot to discuss here, and a lot of it needs more good discourse than it currently gets.  We can discuss big issues here.  There are cases where individual officers are lacking in tact or judgment or both.  There are a ton of departments that need better training when it comes to this stuff.  But, it's too easy and not at all fair to the dialog to paint all cops with a bad cop brush.  

 

 

We're shooting from the hip here, Mac.  You've got to start somewhere.  But, we do trust our staff to make these decisions.  Even though the bench is a bit thin of late - there are really only a few active mods right now - we're depending on them to make appropriate calls, and we do discuss most moderating decisions.  Like I said earlier, we're always happy to provide reasoning for our decisions.

 

I guess at the end of the day, we're just trying to make this place somewhere people actually want to spend time.

 

Oh, I imagine it'll work out OK, but as you say, there's not a lot daily "hands on" anymore, mainly because it's not much needed and since members tend to single stuff out and notify mods, so it is largely self-policing, if somewhat delayed.

 

But yeah, to echo NRA37922, consistency is where rubber hits the road, and "equal enforcement" issues have certainly manifested in the past over even more clear cut policy (like just what extent constitutes a personal attack and etc).

 

But as I said, it's probably not that big a deal in way it'll work out,  but mainly just a question of exactly what's okay to start a thread with and what's not.

 

- OS