Self Defense and Religion

[G27]

This question stems somewhat from the "CCW at church" (http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10810 thread here.....but I think this subject deserves it's own thread.

Mods - I think I'm putting this in the right place since it's regarding the subject of self defense....but I could be wrong.

I've been having a running debate with my grandfather-in-law about the moral and religous issues concerning carrying a gun for self defense, and using it if needed. He believes it's a sin to kill, even if my life and/or my childs life (or anyone elses) was clearly in danger. Today, he showed me the following quote out of the bible (KJV) in Matthew 5:38-39 where Jesus says: "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosover shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

I'm really interested in what some of you think about this. Personally, I'm confused and am looking forward to hearing some different opinions........

It's really something you have to pray about and decide for yourself.

Regarding the passage in Matthew above, it's easy to mistake stuff like that, but you have to recall that "eye for an eye" was revenge, justice, if you will. If someone stole from you, you took back from them in equal amounts. It was not about self defense, but about vengeance.

The 6th commandment is also messed up due to years of inaccurate translation. The original word is more accurately translated 'murder', not 'kill'.

The simplest way to think about it is this - do you really think God would not have you stop someone, at any cost, from harming a child or a woman? It seems ludicrous to me that someone would think God would want you to sit idly and not stop someone from killing an innocent.

As written by C.S. Lewis: "he's not a tame lion..."

[mousegunner]

There have been more people killed over religion then anything else....

Nope: Lots, but not the most. Communists/atheists/Nazis have killed the most in the 20th century. Hundreds of millions.

Not that "religious" folks haven't done a lot of bloody killing. Shame on them! Living in a garage won't make you a car, and going to church won't make you a genuine Christian, either.

[Guest DylisTN]

Wasn't the "Turn the other cheek" statement addressed to folks who were going out to spread the word. And the message was not to quit preaching just because the message did not meet with instant approval? And so does not support passivism.

But, my bible knowledge is all second hand.

[creeky]

Some will disagree, but I am secure in the knowledge that I control my life.

I argue that we are only in control of our own decisions, and actions... but it is the actions of others and "nature" that we do not. So as a by protect we are only in control of a very small portion of our lives.

I can wear my seat belt, even take a defensive driving class... but that doesn't control the actions of a drunk driver nailing my car from behind

and killing me.

We can prepare for certain situations, but I can't control when, or how they will happen. Life is indeed a very random thing.

I mean no disrespect when I refered to "Man's vanity". That was more a generalization of people in general.

janwbrown616 - "There have been more people killed over religion then anything else.... " I would think "Envy", "greed", or "lust" would have higher on the list than "religion".

[Reservoir Dog]

I argue that we are only in control of our own decisions, and actions...

Then we are in complete agreement here. Our personal decisions and actions are what I was referring to.

but it is the actions of others and "nature" that we do not. So as a by protect we are only in control of a very small portion of our lives.

I do disagree somewhat with the above statement. I agree that we cannot control the actions of others, or nature. However, I believe that our decisions and actions make up the vast majority of how we live out lives. I still feel that people who believe that outside forces control most of their lives are the ones that tend to lack personal responsibility. They look to for others to blame for their own problems.

We cannot control the actions of others, or nature, but like you said, we can mitigate them. That is why we have insurance, seatbelts, airbags, and the ability to carry firearms to protect ourselves. I choose to protect myself, others do not. That should be a personal decision. Going back to my original point, what I think is truly sad is that someone would use a bible verse to actually say that it is wrong to protect themselves, or their family. Thus letting something other than themselves make the decision.

No worries, no offense taken on anything.

[Guest nraforlife]

Well ****te, break out the snakes and the tambourines the faith healers just rolled into town.

[deerslayer]

I'll be honest here, I could care less what the bible says on this issue. If my life, or the lives of my loved ones, are in danger, I would not think twice. Mine and my family's survival is the only priority.

+1

Even more so with me since my religion is a combination of IDPA and football.

[Guest cdsusong]

well I read all of the threads on this issue and I have come to a conclusion. As for myself, I will protect my family at any cost. Our pastor and I had a lengthy discussion on this issue and the bottom line is, do what you feel is necessary. There are alot of what ifs and so on to deal with this issue. You could have lawyers battle back and forth on this and they will only get richer. I feel that if a crazy person steps into my house or my house of worship, with intent to do harm, I think you know the outcome. I would protect my family first and then deal with the situation. Hopefully and we should all pray that it won't happen, but as history shows, it does and we should be prepared. Talk to you pastor or whom ever leads your worship and let them know that you have concerns and you will probably find that they do to. Just my opinion here and letting you know my plans.

[Oh Shoot]

Nope: Lots, but not the most. Communists/atheists/Nazis have killed the most in the 20th century. Hundreds of millions...

When did all them atheists ban together in an army?

I must have missed it in my historical studies.

- OS

[PackinMama]

I'd like to clarify where I stand, first let me say that this is my grandfather-IN-LAW......and I absolutely do not agree with his views on this subject in any way, shape, or form. I carry my weapon 24/7 and I do so to be able to defend myself, my family, or anyone else if a situation arose that called for the use of deadly force. Nothing anyone says would ever be able to change that. I go everywhere, including to church on sunday, with my G27 close at hand.

I'm a fairly young Christian and I will admit that I do not read my bible nearly as often as I should. On the other hand, my GFIL is extremely knowledgable of the bible and is a devout Seventh Day Adventist. He's also never wrong (in his opinion anyway ) and loves to argue. He honestly believes that the bible says that you should not kill, for any reason, including self defense. He says that you should be more interested in trying to save the person that's going to kill you than in self preservation. Every quote in the bible that I brought up to him that seems to clearly allow for self defense, he just shoots down and says that I'm interpreting it the wrong way. There's just going to be no way to change his mind, so I'm not even going to try anymore.

When he brought up the quote about turning the other cheek......I have to admit, that one did concern me. That's why I decided to post this thread.....I wanted to see how some of you interpreted what the bible says about the right to use deadly force in self defense. You guys have given me a lot of great information and mousegunners link http://www.mouseguns.com/cba.htm has some fantastic articles on this subject.

[Guest SUNTZU]

IMO, "turn the other cheek" does not mean to take a sword in the gut or mouth, ala Roman spatha.

More food for thought.

Judges 4:18-23

If grandpa doesn't agree with the Old Testament, why is it in his Bible?

[Guest janwbrown616]

Nope: Lots, but not the most. Communists/atheists/Nazis have killed the most in the 20th century. Hundreds of millions.

Not that "religious" folks haven't done a lot of bloody killing. Shame on them! Living in a garage won't make you a car, and going to church won't make you a genuine Christian, either.

Only the 20 Century is a drop in the bucket. Go back...Way back...then move forward and add up the casualities... Even the Bible will list the numbers.The millions in WWII? a large % were JEWISH..., Then, you have SERBS, and Muslems, and millions in ethnic cleansing that still goes on.

[Angus]

Mama,

I have read this thread, fairly familiar with the Bible. (not as familiar as I want to be) I agree, it is something to pray over as a Christian. I do believe that one of the commandments is thou shalt not kill. I also believe that God forgives us of our sins if we ask him to.

I heard many people argue that "if a murderer in prison seeks forgiveness, God will allow him into heaven?" I believe He does if this murder is truely repentant, and I don't think we as believers should have a poor opinion on this. We are told that all will be forgiven in heaven, and we will have no more sorrow. That being the truth, then we will no longer remember the pains and arguments from this life, so then we will not know murderer from preacher.

Only God knows us, the true us. We have to ask Him and Him alone for forgiveness. Our friends, family members and forum folks will have their opinions, but for a Cristian it is God's forgiveness and mercy that we must ask for, and none other.

Hope that helps.

John

Edited August 26, 2008 by Angus

[robbiev]

Mama,

I do believe that one of the commandments is thou shalt not kill. I also believe that God forgives us of our sins if we ask him to.

I guess a lot of that boils down to whether a person things the King James Version is the only correct version of the Bible.

Personally, I believe the sixth commandment is "Thou shalt not murder."

Two reasons: One, the original Hebrew text, based on my (fairly limited) research, used the word for murder, not kill.

Two, if the sixth commandment is "Thou shalt not kill" and it means any form of killing whatsoever, then the Bible is full of contradictions, because there are many instances in the Old Testament where God sanctioned the killing of other people and animals.

Edited August 26, 2008 by robbiev

[G27]

Only the Catholic church historically translates it as 'kill' - the Torah, Qur'an, and virtually all protestant Christian Bibles translate it as 'murder'.

[Guest SUNTZU]

Two, if the sixth commandment is "Thou shalt not kill" and it means any form of killing whatsoever, then the Bible is full of contradictions, because there are many instances in the Old Testament where God sanctioned the killing of other people.

That's what I meant by posting the scripture from Judges. That's where the lady drives a tent peg through the sleeping guys head. And thus God subdued the king of somewhere.

Psalm 137:9

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Anyways, religion makes my head hurt. How bout them Vols?

[robbiev]

Only the Catholic church historically translates it as 'kill' - the Torah, Qur'an, and virtually all protestant Christian Bibles translate it as 'murder'.

The KJV translates it at "kill." However, I'm not sure how historical that is considered, since it's only a few hundred years old.

Anyways, religion makes my head hurt. How bout them Vols?

Mine too. Too many people believe THEY are right and everybody else on the planet is wrong.

[Guest justaman30]

I checked out the link that Suntzu posted.....this is the verse my Grandfather used to shoot down the "he that hath no sword should sell his garment and buy one" :

Matthew 26:52-54 – how Jesus responded when Peter used his sword to cut off the ear of a servant of the high priest: "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?"

That link goes on to explain that verse in a little better light however:

Jesus told Peter he would be committing suicide to choose a fight in this situation – as well as undermining God's plan to allow Jesus' death on the cross and resurrection.

Jesus told Peter to put his sword in its place – at his side. He didn't say throw it away. After all, He had just ordered the disciples to arm themselves. The reason for the arms was obviously to protect the lives of the disciples, not the life of the Son of God. What Jesus was saying was: "Peter, this is not the right time for a fight."

I am an SBC pastor and carry a handgun for self-defense. I agree with the above interpretation. Jesus' admonition to turn the other cheek is an instruction to be patient and passive in an insulting situation, not a situation where your life is threatened. Any good conservative bible commentary or theologian will back this up.

[Guest slothful1]

In Matthew 24:42-44, Jesus seems to explicitly recognize a legitimate right to home defense:

"Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."

[Guest nraforlife]

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition

[Guest gunslinger707]

Don't know about " Thou shalt not kill" BUT the art of self preservation run's awful strong in my blood !

[Guest cdsusong]

I think we could go on and on over this issue and the bottom line is still, do what you feel is necessary to protect the ones you love. If that means carry at church, then that is what it is. If you feel safe at your place of worship and think that "it won't happen to me" ........I will say a prayer for you that it never does. If it does happen and you should take a life in defense of yourself or another, let God figure it out. He is good at that stuff!

[DavidD]

I have always said, If my home gets's invaded, I'd surely pray for those lost but now dead souls. Also, I think Exodus 22:2 covers this and justifies it from a biblical stand point however, the most important thing I try to remember is that one day, I'd have to look God in the eye and justify it so I'd better be right.

[Fallguy]

I really doubt there is any source of information that you could show to your Grandfather-in-Law that would change his mind.

He feels the way he feels. There is a reason people say not to discuss politics and religon. I'm sure he has had this opinion for most, if not all, of his life....and there isn't anything that is going to change it now.

[dralarms]

the art of self preservation run's awful strong in my blood !

Exactly. If they come a calling with harm in their minds and on their hearts then I'll do what I must and face any judgement HE decides I should receive.