Self Defense and Religion

[PackinMama]

This question stems somewhat from the "CCW at church" (http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10810 thread here.....but I think this subject deserves it's own thread.

Mods - I think I'm putting this in the right place since it's regarding the subject of self defense....but I could be wrong.

I've been having a running debate with my grandfather-in-law about the moral and religous issues concerning carrying a gun for self defense, and using it if needed. He believes it's a sin to kill, even if my life and/or my childs life (or anyone elses) was clearly in danger. Today, he showed me the following quote out of the bible (KJV) in Matthew 5:38-39 where Jesus says: "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosover shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

I'm really interested in what some of you think about this. Personally, I'm confused and am looking forward to hearing some different opinions........

Edited August 25, 2008 by PackinMama

[Guest c.a.s.]

That's a slap to the face, not attempting to kill you.

Jesus also said "He that hath no sword should sell his garment and buy one", though that's very roughly from memory.

[Guest SUNTZU]

Exodus 22:2 and Psalms 144:1.

Link that might help.

The Bible and self-defense

[PackinMama]

Suntzu, I already showed him those verses.....he says that what Jesus said basically 'cancels' the old testament stuff out.

I'll check that link out....

[PackinMama]

Jesus also said "He that hath no sword should sell his garment and buy one", though that's very roughly from memory.

I showed him that one too....he basically said that I'm interpreting that the wrong way.....gave me some lengthy b.s. about it that kinda went in one ear and out the other.....can't even remember what he said to tell you the truth.

[Guest SUNTZU]

From another link.

One thing that should distinguish a Christian from others is the conviction that God provides protection that surpasses our ability to protect ourselves. This conviction motivates some of us to simply not take measures others consider essential, or to be unconcerned if we cannot afford them. What would your reaction be if I decided not to get health and medical insurance or go to a doctor, but instead put full confidence in Jesus as my healer? Would you consider me naive? Or would you consider me more spiritual than yourself? Or would you conclude that I simply had different convictions? (For your information, I have good medical insurance.) If it's wrong to protect ourselves, should we disable safety devices in our vehicles, such as seat belts and air bags? Again, how do we care for ourselves in a way that is both responsible and honors God? If it's wrong to protect ourselves, maybe we should have the same philosophy as the Muslims, who believe that whatever happens to them is Allah's will, so they don't concern themselves at all with safety. Do we really believe it's always wrong to protect or defend ourselves? Or are we saying it's okay to protect ourselves a little bit but not a lot, or from little threats but not big ones? Or do we believe it's inappropriate to protect ourselves from other people, but okay to defend ourselves from everything else? If that's the case, why do we lock our doors? What do we really believe?

[Guest SUNTZU]

Here's the link from where the quote above was taken. It is a long read, but may help you.

A Christian Perspective of Self Defense

[PackinMama]

That's a slap to the face, not attempting to kill you.

Jesus also said "He that hath no sword should sell his garment and buy one", though that's very roughly from memory.

I showed him that one too....he basically said that I'm interpreting that the wrong way.....gave me some lengthy b.s. about it that kinda went in one ear and out the other.....can't even remember what he said to tell you the truth.

I checked out the link that Suntzu posted.....this is the verse my Grandfather used to shoot down the "he that hath no sword should sell his garment and buy one" :

Matthew 26:52-54 – how Jesus responded when Peter used his sword to cut off the ear of a servant of the high priest: "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?"

That link goes on to explain that verse in a little better light however:

Jesus told Peter he would be committing suicide to choose a fight in this situation – as well as undermining God's plan to allow Jesus' death on the cross and resurrection.

Jesus told Peter to put his sword in its place – at his side. He didn't say throw it away. After all, He had just ordered the disciples to arm themselves. The reason for the arms was obviously to protect the lives of the disciples, not the life of the Son of God. What Jesus was saying was: "Peter, this is not the right time for a fight."

[PackinMama]

Here's the link from where the quote above was taken. It is a long read, but may help you.

A Christian Perspective of Self Defense

Thanks Suntzu! I quickly looked it over.....seems pretty interesting. I'll read through it when I have a bit more time.

[Punisher84]

Mama,

I was raised a Christian and still believe deeply in God. I have served in the army and while I have never taken a human life I cannot understand how the bible speaks so clearly of having a sword and war, and God not allow us to defend ourselves. He gave us free will and a mind. I look at as combating evil. I hope that helps some.

[Guest Grout]

Sounds to me like you are not going to be able to change his mind.Some people's beliefs and convictions are set in stone and no amount of discussion will change it.Usually the only thing that does is for something to happen that allows them to see the whole picture.

[Smith]

As a pastor i can tell you that it is a totality argument. Meaning you have to take the balance of the Old and New Testament into account. Someone who leans heavily in either direction will tend to get out of context Gods nature. Old Testament law is completed in New Testament grace, but you can't separate the two. God had to show the severity of law in the OT, so that the grace of Christ would be manifested in full in the NT. It is a contrasting picture we needed to see.

That being said, defending ones self/family is as scriptural as forgiveness. The difficulty is that there is not a single verse that deals with the particular issue at hand and most people are too lazy to search out the principle in he entirety of the scripture.

mousegunner, who is also a pastor, has put together this info on his site. Great place to get it all together.

Edited August 25, 2008 by Smith

[mousegunner]

Here's a whole page of links I've discovered on the topic. An overflow of information!

http://www.mouseguns.com/cba.htm

[Guest sermon8r]

as a pastor i can tell ou that it is a totality arguement. meaning you have to take the balance.of the old and new.testament into account. someone.who leans.heavily in either direction will tend to get out of context gods nature. old testiment law is completed in new testament grace, but you can't seperate.the two. god had to show the severity of law int the ot so.that the.grace of christ would be manifested in full in the nt. it is a.contrast picture.we needed.to see.

that being said, defending ones.self/family is as scriptual as forgiveness. the difficulty is.that there is not a sinle verse that deals with the particular issue at hand and.most people are too lazy to searh out the principle.in he entirity of he scripture.

mousegunner, who is also a pastor, has put together this info on his site. great place to get it all together

Now you have 3 Preachers that agree on something.......God Must Be Involved Here........

[Guest nraforlife]

More religious BS. The various sects interpet the bible in so many different manners that it's almost a joke.

[The Average Joe]

Mama,

I was raised a Christian and still believe deeply in God. I have served in the army and while I have never taken a human life I cannot understand how the bible speaks so clearly of having a sword and war, and God not allow us to defend ourselves. He gave us free will and a mind. I look at as combating evil. I hope that helps some.

I agree with this.

Well put, Punisher.

[Guest sling]

More religious BS. The various sects interpet the bible in so many different manners that it's almost a joke.

Agreed.

People will argue that there is no "set in stone" interpretation... but the minute you try to argue your point... they are always the correct one. No ifs, ands, or buts. Any religion or person that tells me that i cant defend myself if i am in dire trouble is a fool.

[Punisher84]

I agree with this.

Well put, Punisher.

Thank you sir!

[Guest grimel]

Suntzu, I already showed him those verses.....he says that what Jesus said basically 'cancels' the old testament stuff out.

I'll check that link out....

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law not eliminate the law. The slap is an insult not an attack, hence when Peter lopped off the Roman's ear Jesus said now is NOT the time. NOTE: he didn't say there is never a time.

Also, Jesus also said, If the goodman of the house knew when the robbers were coming he wouldn't have suffered his house being robbed.

When you have a conflict in the Bible between verses your interpretation of one verse is wrong.

Since the Bible also says let ALL things be established from the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses, if you have ONE verse supporting your idea and someone can show you multiple verses that conflicts with you, you are wrong.

Not to mention, the Bible in the New Testement, says not a jot or tiddle will pass. That means it's all still good. Also, in the NT, it is written let him be acursed who adds to or takes away from the written word of God.

Then we have the Law and all it's exemptions for punishment for self defense not to mention the orders to kill certain sinners.

Also, note the many times the Jewish leaders tried to trip Jesus up by having him say something that contradicted the OT.

Also, in the Bible it is written that a man who doesn't provide for his household is worse than an Infidel. NOTE: it doesn't say provide money, it says PROVIDE FOR. That is an all inclusive statement. That means I have to provide the food, shelter, health, education, religious foundation, and SAFETY of my family.

IOW, he's trying to justify himself by wrapping himself up in the Bible. My departed grandfather was a 40yr ordained Deacon. He carried a pistol in his pocket most of his life. A former Pastor while teaching on the above mentioned burglars and the goodman stated if someone came in his house he would defend his daughters and wife tooth and claw. Then he stopped and you could see the light bulb flip on in his head. His next statement was I think I've been sinning by NOT having a gun to protect my family. I'm pretty sure at least 2 handguns were present in the building at that time.

[Guest grimel]

I showed him that one too....he basically said that I'm interpreting that the wrong way.....gave me some lengthy b.s. about it that kinda went in one ear and out the other.....can't even remember what he said to tell you the truth.

Have him show you in a Greek dictionary what it means. It means short sword. This isn't that complicated.

[Guest macmonkey]

I value my own life and the life of my family more than anything in the world. Someone entering my domain clearly knows the risks and therefore is does not value their own life in the same way that I do mine. I personally have no moral issue pulling the trigger should someone kick down my bedroom door in the middle of the night.

Personally - I will not take a life to save my property - no matter how mad and scared I might be but even though they are scum a human life is more important than my property but I have no question that god expects me to do whatever it takes to protect the life that he gave me.

[Reservoir Dog]

I'll be honest here, I could care less what the bible says on this issue. If my life, or the lives of my loved ones, are in danger, I would not think twice. Mine and my family's survival is the only priority.

It is truly unfortunate that someone would not protect themselves or their family based on some words in a book. Some people control their own destiny, others allow themselves to be controlled. Some people need to be the sheep, I guess. :-\

[creeky]

It is truly unfortunate that someone would not protect themselves or their family based on some words in a book. Some people control their own destiny, others allow themselves to be controlled. Some people need to be the sheep, I guess. :-

We all live our lives by something. Either through the view of a religious work (like The bible), personal experiences (that have shaped our perception), a particular philosophy (be it western or eastern) we have studied or popular culture (Cowboy movies, or novels that show men living by a set of ideals that seem right to us.)

I try not to judge a man by the code he chooses to live by (or die by) or call him a coward or simple minded because he makes the choice to live by something I can't understand. We are all different. To each their own.

The idea that we are in control is man's vanity. We like to think we are in control of our destiny because it makes us feel better, more secure, and in control. When I believe the opposite is closer to the truth. We can take steps to increase our odds (Wear a seatbelt, carry a gun, don't drink and drive)... but in the end we have very little "true control" over our lives.

Which is but a vapor that appearth but a little while.

(These are just my opinions and no better than anyone any other

opinion. In fact... I would give them the same weight I give the stuff

wrote on the back of a cereal box. )

[Guest janwbrown616]

You know. All the religions in the world cannot argue one fact. There have been more people killed over religion then anything else....

[Reservoir Dog]

... but in the end we have very little "true control" over our lives.

I could not disagree more. We are sentient beings. We have the ability to analyze our surroundings, and make decisions on how to live our lives. The problem is that some believe that they are not in control of their lives. These are the same people who blame others for the misfortune that they caused themselves. These are the same people that say guns kill people, or blame McDonald's for their kids being too fat. It is always someone else's fault. Personal responsibility is completely unknown to them.

Some people have the courage and fortitude to make decisions for themselves, others would rather have someone else make the decisions for them. I make the decisions on how I live. Some will disagree, but I am secure in the knowledge that I control my life. You may call it vanity, I call it personal responsibility.