TGO Lowers "what your going to build" "how to build" General discussion thread

[Oh Shoot]

Okay, I was to understand that it was a one for one thing, as in I have 4 x AR rifles yet two extra buffer tubes and buttstocks for a total of 6, and at least a half dozen vertical fore grips, yet only 3 x ARs that can accept a VFG.  Also add to that 4 x virgin lowers and 2 x stripped uppers.  One could see that an addition of a 7.5 inch barrel to the mix could signify constructive intent, especially if I build a pistol the way you have yours, with the standard buffer tube that can accept a buttstock and a rail system with an angled foregrip that can be switched out with one of my VFG if desired.  Seems like a very murky area.  Certainly wouldn't want to have any marijuana plants growing wild in my back yard or be present at any white supremacist meetings with such a subjectively written law.

 

It's not subjective at all since 1992, since it's a SCOTUS decision and not an ATF opinion that can be changed on a whim. Any part combined with the total possessed group of parts either has a legal use, or it doesn't. (though ATF kept as mum as possible about it until summer of 2011)

 

The heart of the "constructive criticism" thing is simply:

 

 "an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they: 

(a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or

( b ) convert a  complete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel)."

 

In other words, it's no longer merely what you could make illegally out of a group of parts, but whether there is also a legal use for them.

 

And to err on side of caution, I recommend that since "close proximity" is not defined, to consider your entire property as "close enough".

 

And though it's yet another discussion, I don't consider a "pistol buffer" or "crippled carbine buffer"  as adequate insurance to also having a stock that has no legal purpose either, as there's no definition of what constitutes "attaching" it. Gaffer tape or simply bracing it against tube might be sufficient if push came to shove.

 

- OS

Edited October 15, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Wingshooter]

So if I have an AR pistol, 2 AR rifles and a bunch of extra stocks and VFGs laying around the house, I'm fine since those parts have a legal purpose for those rifles. However, if I only have the AR pistol in the truck and stop at the LGS to buy Magpul's newest VFG to take home... That's a no/no because there is only an illegal purpose for that without my rifle present in the truck?

This has been educational for me. Good to know. I don't have an AR pistol yet but probably soon.

[SmokyBaer]

.458 SOCOM! We'll get Erik to shoot it first :)

 

C'mon...  Just got my first 458 together and shot it the other day. 
Piece o'cake!!  Surprised me with not even a 308 level of recoil. 

However, I was laying down fire with mere 300 grainers.  :pleased:

 

 

Edited October 15, 2013 by SmokyBaer

[SmokyBaer]

.... exactly what are all the caliber choices we have?

 

Mind blowing quantity of choices.  :panic:

Seems like the more I dig for my ultimate build the more options get dug up. 

The chart below does not show the new Wilson 7.62×40 WT offering either.

 

Edited October 15, 2013 by SmokyBaer

[mikegideon]

C'mon...  Just got my first 458 together and shot it the other day. 
Piece o'cake!!  Surprised me with not even a 308 level of recoil. 

However, I was laying down fire with mere 300 grainers.  :pleased:

 

 

 

That stock is helping you more than you know. You can't get a decent recoil pad for a Magpul stock. I finally put a brake on mine. Are you using the heavy spring that comes with the upper? Mine is a middy, so I'm using a stock carbine spring.

[Luke E.]

C'mon...  Just got my first 458 together and shot it the other day. 
Piece o'cake!!  Surprised me with not even a 308 level of recoil. 

However, I was laying down fire with mere 300 grainers.  :pleased:

 

 

 

 

 Nice looking rifle!

[SmokyBaer]

Using the standard spring.  Fella I bought the upper from could not find the heavy one. 

[GuitaRx]

not sure at this point, thinking about 6.5 Grendel also...

[SmokyBaer]

 Nice looking rifle!

 

THANKS!! 

[mikegideon]

Using the standard spring.  Fella I bought the upper from could not find the heavy one. 

 

I have one for carbine and one for rifle (I think). If the recoil isn't bugging you, I wouldn't mess with it.

[mikegideon]

 Nice looking rifle!

 

Can't beat RRA's .458 uppers.

[SmokyBaer]

not sure at this point, thinking about 6.5 Grendel also...

 

Here's the chart that hooked me.  Have not confirmed the numbers but if they are even close, the 6.5 Grendel is on a 308's coat tail all the way to 600 and passes it up with 150 inches less drop at a thousand! 

Check it out...

 

Edited October 15, 2013 by SmokyBaer

[SmokyBaer]

Can't beat RRA's .458 uppers.

 

Yep, that's exactly what it is.  Nice upper.  Got my ammo from Wilson. 
Only have a couple mags that need the lips curved a bit for the 458 slug. 
It may be a keeper as it is a hoot to shoot.  :up:

[mikegideon]

not sure at this point, thinking about 6.5 Grendel also...

 

Precision reloading. Whole new level of geeky (and gear quality). :).

[mikegideon]

Yep, that's exactly what it is.  Nice upper.  Got my ammo from Wilson. 
Only have a couple mags that need the lips curved a bit for the 458 slug. 
It may be a keeper as it is a hoot to shoot.  :up:

 

I have an RRA upper. Lancer Advanced Warfighter mags. They make two grades. You need the good one.

[TripleDigitRide]

I have an RRA upper. Lancer Advanced Warfighter mags. They make two grades. You need the good one.

I also highly recommend the Lancer L5AWM. Great magazines.

[mikegideon]

Here's the chart that hooked me.  Have not confirmed the numbers but if they are even close, the 6.5 Grendel is on a 308's coat tail all the way to 600 and passes it up with 150 inches less drop at a thousand! 

Check it out...

 

 

The Grendel performs that way because of the high ballistic coefficient of the bullets. I haven't priced 6.5mm, but those kinda bullets are usually pricey. I don't have a problem with the cost of good bullets. Just pointing it out.

[mikegideon]

I also highly recommend the Lancer L5AWM. Great magazines.

 

These...

 

[TripleDigitRide]

These...

I need some of the 20 rounders.

[Oh Shoot]

oops, double tap

Edited October 15, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Oh Shoot]

So if I have an AR pistol, 2 AR rifles and a bunch of extra stocks and VFGs laying around the house, I'm fine since those parts have a legal purpose for those rifles. However, if I only have the AR pistol in the truck and stop at the LGS to buy Magpul's newest VFG to take home... That's a no/no because there is only an illegal purpose for that without my rifle present in the truck?

 

Yep, good example, ultimately could be a problem. You have parts in close proximity that have no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (in this case AOW). Especially if there's a rail to accept it on the pistol.

 

In the AR world, full auto stuff and cans aside, it always comes down to only 3 items I can think of: short barrel, stock, and VFG. Make sure you have a legal use for those three items, if there is also an illegal use -- and though multiples of each are legal if one is legal, I'd be more cautious about that out and about, no sense baiting the bear.

 

Doesn't always have to be AR related either, for example:

 

 

 

Perfectly legal. (that's a 16" rifle upper, not shown to scale)

 

However, what if you forgot to bring the rifle upper, but had the pistol and stock? Well, you have "made" an NFA firearm whether you intended to or not or whether you actually attach them or not.

 

- OS

Edited October 15, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Luke E.]

Yep, good example, ultimately could be a problem. You have parts in close proximity that have no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (in this case AOW). Especially if there's a rail to accept it on the pistol.

In the AR world, full auto stuff and cans aside, it always comes down to only 3 items I can think of: short barrel, stock, and VFG. Make sure you have a legal use for those three items, if there is also an illegal use -- and though multiples of each are legal if one is legal, I'd be more cautious about that out and about, no sense baiting the bear.

Doesn't always have to be AR related either, for example:




Perfectly legal. (that's a 16" rifle upper, not shown to scale)

However, what if you forgot to bring the rifle upper, but had the pistol and stock? Well, you have "made" an NFA firearm whether you intended to or not or whether you actually attach them or not.

- OS

That is a great example! It seems all to often I'll get to the range and have forgotten something. I usually leave a grip pod and an AFG in my rifle case because depending on what kind of shooting I'm doing, one may be better suited than the other. But say I meant to pack an AR pistol and a rifle but got side tracked and zipped up the bag without putting the rifle in, now I'm at the range and realize I forgot the rifle. Now I'm guilty of having the makings of an NFA firearm with no legal use for the grips on my person.
I guess the 1st thing I'll do is go bury the grips in my truck (stays full of crap so it would be easy) and then I will likely cuss myself for being forgetful!
Now I don't own an AR pistol at the moment but I will most likely assemble the TGO receivers as such 1st so sometime between now and then I will have to get over my forgetfulness.

Also OS, do I understand you correctly that you can use any type of buffer tube so long as it does not have a stock on it?

[Oh Shoot]

....Also OS, do I understand you correctly that you can use any type of buffer tube so long as it does not have a stock on it?

 

Yes, and mine has a standard carbine tube on it. But beyond "not having a stock on it", the stock needs to have a legal use if you have one at all, since it would or could also have an illegal use. Remember it doesn't have to be attached to have made an NFA firearm, and if you had no other legal "useful purpose" for it, that's what you have done.

 

That's also a case of where I wouldn't be comfy having multiple items away from home, say an extra stock along with a rifle and a pistol. While technically legal, it just sort of "sticks out", and I'm all for not inviting scrutiny.

 

A "pistol" buffer tube might or might not put a layer of deniability between a stock with no clear cut legal use, but I wouldn't count on it.  If I only had with me, or even at home, only owned an AR pistol, I wouldn't also have a stock, period, regardless of buffer tube type.

 

- OS

Edited October 15, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[Luke E.]

Yes, and mine has a standard carbine tube on it. But beyond "not having a stock on it", the stock needs to have a legal use if you have one at all, since it would or could also have an illegal use. Remember it doesn't have to be attached to have made an NFA firearm, and if you had no other legal "useful purpose" for it, that's what you have done.

That's also a case of where I wouldn't be comfy having multiple items away from home, say an extra stock along with a rifle and a pistol. While technically legal, it just sort of "sticks out", and I'm all for not inviting scrutiny.

A "pistol" buffer tube might or might not put a layer of deniability between a stock with no clear cut legal use, but I wouldn't count on it. If I only had with me, or even at home, only owned an AR pistol, I wouldn't also have a stock, period, regardless of buffer tube type.

- OS

I totally understand the whole "having the parts even if not installed" being NFA and I always have a rifle with me so I'd have a legal use either way but I don't know why I'd have an extra stock with me if I hadn't anything to put it in.
I have a very good knowledge of what is and isn't legal but I just never thought about whether or not the carbine tube would legally suffice as a pistol so long as there was no spare stock on or around it with no other rifle to call home.
I wanted to build this lower as a pistol first but wasn't wanting to buy a tube just for the sake of taking a pic. So as long as a carbine tube has no stock on or around it I should be able to snap my pic to document it being a pistol first?

[vontar]

I think I am getting it

 

If I have a stock at home, I had better have at 16 inch upper to go with it while my AR pistol is at home.

 

So I could have a legal use for the stock when combined with the 16 inch upper.

Edited October 15, 2013 by vontar