MO Cop to open-carry chicks: "Show me your papers!"

[Fallguy]

Apparently he did. Maybe a 911 call of a report of MWAG. Then he had no choice but to ID them.

DaveS

Why?

[Oh Shoot]

Apparently he did. Maybe a 911 call of a report of MWAG. Then he had no choice but to ID them.

 

Wrong. Already been covered many, many times. Call or no call, absent any other evidence of a crime, the carrying of a gun where legal does not meet the threshold to warrant a Terry Stop.

 

Yep, in a state where it is legal to open carry, should have been treated same as Man With a Hat call.

 

- OS

[DaveTN]

Turns out there is a part 2 for that encounter. The Springfield Police Chief came out and talked to those people. You may not like his message, but he explains why and under what authority they were stopped. His delivery was much better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGAN8k7YpP8

[daddyo]

Turns out there is a part 2 for that encounter. The Springfield Police Chief came out and talked to those people. You may not like his message, but he explains why and under what authority they were stopped. His delivery was much better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGAN8k7YpP8

 

Does this justify the first cop's behavior?

[DaveTN]

Does this justify the first cop's behavior?

After reading my posts do you think I have implied it does? After seeing part two of that video, seeing that the Chief took the time to come out, and hearing what he had to say; I think he may have a talk with that Officer.

[DaveS]

The second video is very interesting in that one of the girls open carrying is 19. She's good for MO. However, if she came to TN, she may have had an issue as Tennessee doesn't honor permits from Maine. Her age may cause her issues with her handgun depending on where she is. Although MO allows OC at 18, I believe the minimum age to carry concealed there is 21. I'll have to research it, but wonder what the legalities are if they were here, where you have to be 21 to carry?

 

Thanks for posting that second video DaveTN

 

DaveS

Edited October 30, 2013 by DaveS

[JayC]

DaveS,

 

TN honors permits for ALL states, per state law 39-17-1351.  And while you must be 21 to be issued a TN permit, there is no such restriction placed on honoring out of state permits.

 

So since she had a valid out of state permit, isn't working full time in TN and isn't a resident of TN, she would be perfectly legal to carry here in TN, open or concealed.

 

39-17-1351r1:

 

A facially valid handgun permit, firearms permit, weapons permit or license issued by another state shall be valid in this state according to its terms and shall be treated as if it is a handgun permit issued by this state; provided, however, the provisions of this subsection (r) shall not be construed to authorize the holder of any out-of-state permit or license to carry, in this state, any firearm or weapon other than a handgun.

 

You'll note it doesn't say anything about age restrictions...

 

So everything you just said is completely incorrect.

 

The second video is very interesting in that one of the girls open carrying is 19. She's good for MO. However, if she came to TN, she may have had an issue as Tennessee doesn't honor permits from Maine. Her age may cause her issues with her handgun depending on where she is. Although MO allows OC at 18, I believe the minimum age to carry concealed there is 21. I'll have to research it, but wonder what the legalities are if they were here, where you have to be 21 to carry?

 

Thanks for posting that second video DaveTN

 

DaveS

Edited October 30, 2013 by JayC

[Guest RebelCowboySnB]

Tn an Ga both have a requirement to be 21 to get a permit. Nether restrict carry to an age though, just the permit. AL issues at 18. 18-20 year old people from AL carry in TN an Ga all the time.

[DaveS]

DaveS,

 

TN honors permits for ALL states, per state law 39-17-1351.  And while you must be 21 to be issued a TN permit, there is no such restriction placed on honoring out of state permits.

 

So since she had a valid out of state permit, isn't working full time in TN and isn't a resident of TN, she would be perfectly legal to carry here in TN, open or concealed.

 

39-17-1351r1:

 

 

You'll note it doesn't say anything about age restrictions...

 

So everything you just said is completely incorrect.

My research shows me that TN does not honor all states permits. They honor the states that honors TN permits. And I believe Maine is one that doesn't. If I'm wrong on the laws, please let me know.

 

DaveS

[DaveS]

OK, I found it. I'm still trying to find the age requirements for travel, and so far it falls into the state you are traveling through and not a part of the recip agreement between states.

 

DaveS

[Oh Shoot]

My research shows me that TN does not honor all states permits. ..

 

Funded by DHS grant, no doubt? ;)

 

- OS

[Chucktshoes]

Funded by DHS grant, no doubt? ;)

 

- OS

[JayC]

DaveS,

 

Did you even read the post I made?  Did you see that I took the time to quote the EXACT law that honors all other state permits?  39-17-1351r1?

 

The entire 'TN honors states that honor it' law was repealed and replaced years ago...  There is a TN reciprocity agreement law on the books still, it requires the Secretary of State to enter into such agreements with other states when those states require such an agreement.

 

BUT, reciprocity only matters in one case today, if a non-resident works full time in TN for more than 6 months, if they have a out of state license which has a reciprocity agreement with TN, they don't have to get a TN permit.

 

FOPA (Firearm Owners Protection Act) doesn't have anything to do with this situation, which is the only law I can think you'd be referring to about traveling through a state. 

 

DaveS this is why people get so frustrated with you...  they take the time to look up and quote you the law to prove you are wrong, and you don't even bother to read it and just dismiss the quoted text outright.

 

Face it you're WRONG on this, nothing you said is even remotely correct.  TN does honor permits from Maine, and all other permits issues by any other state.  You don't have to be 21 to carry a firearm OC or CC in TN on a valid out of state license.

 

My research shows me that TN does not honor all states permits. They honor the states that honors TN permits. And I believe Maine is one that doesn't. If I'm wrong on the laws, please let me know.

 

DaveS

Edited October 30, 2013 by JayC

[DaveS]

WOW...A picture of chuck. I declare.

 

DaveS

[DaveS]

I pretty much said I made a mistake, and found what I was looking for. And yes, I seen your quote. It's just a bunch of numbers. I like to read the laws for myself. I really want to say more to a couple of you guys (chuckieshoes and jayc) but I'm a tad smarter and a little more mature, and will not bring myself down to your level of getting your points across. Grow up fellas!

 

Good Evening.

 

DaveS

[JayC]

DaveS,
 
Please go read it again...  I referenced the EXACT law 39-17-1351r1 then quoted the EXACT text of that law:
 

A facially valid handgun permit, firearms permit, weapons permit or license issued by another state shall be valid in this state according to its terms and shall be treated as if it is a handgun permit issued by this state; provided, however, the provisions of this subsection ® shall not be construed to authorize the holder of any out-of-state permit or license to carry, in this state, any firearm or weapon other than a handgun.

You then post without ANY cite that your 'research' shows that we don't honor all other out of state permits...  And then you question my maturity for calling you out on totally ignoring the fact that I not only showed you the exact place in the law where TN does honor all permits, but I took the time to quote you the entire subsection of the law so you could "read the law for yourself"...

 
I'm not sure how much easier I could make it for you?  How exactly should I go about citing laws in the future so you read them and don't just see a bunch of numbers and letters?  I'll turn on the big flashing red letters if that helps you in the future?

 

Just a quick FYI, those 'bunch of numbers' are the place in the TCA you can go to look up the law in question, and helps save time so you don't have to read 10,000 pages of laws to find the one you're looking for....  I try to include the TCA reference so if you want to go read the law yourself you can look it up quickly and confirm my quoted text is correct...  instead of referencing mysterious 'research' where I provide no link or cite :)

 

I pretty much said I made a mistake, and found what I was looking for. And yes, I seen your quote. It's just a bunch of numbers. I like to read the laws for myself. I really want to say more to a couple of you guys (chuckieshoes and jayc) but I'm a tad smarter and a little more mature, and will not bring myself down to your level of getting your points across. Grow up fellas!
 
Good Evening.
 
DaveS

Edited November 1, 2013 by JayC

[Chucktshoes]

I pretty much said I made a mistake, and found what I was looking for. And yes, I seen your quote. It's just a bunch of numbers. I like to read the laws for myself. I really want to say more to a couple of you guys (chuckieshoes and jayc) but I'm a tad smarter and a little more mature, and will not bring myself down to your level of getting your points across. Grow up fellas!

 

Good Evening.

 

DaveS

:lol:

[JayC]

I'm more concerned by the fact that somebody who lists working in law enforcement (or previously) and lives in TN doesn't know what 39-17-1351r1 means....  How exactly do you go through POST certification and not know what that is referencing and how to look it up on Lexus/Nexus?

 

:lol:

Edited November 1, 2013 by JayC

[Chucktshoes]

I'm more concerned by the fact that somebody who lists working in law enforcement (or previously) and lives in TN doesn't know what 39-17-1351r1 means.... How exactly do you go through POST certification and not know that is referencing and how to look it up on Lexus/Nexus?

I understand the concern and would share it with you if I didn't have serious doubts about the veracity of that listing. When asked what form of LE he worked in, the question has always been met with vague answers & evasiveness.

[JayC]

I hope you're wrong, but I agree some posts raise serious questions...  Not that I would ever tell forum admins what to do, but I'd think somebody who falsely claimed to the a current or retired LEO would be quickly dealt with.

 

 

I understand the concern and would share it with you if I didn't have serious doubts about the veracity of that listing. When asked what form of LE he worked in, the question has always been met with vague answers & evasiveness.

[Chucktshoes]

I hope I am wrong too and would gladly apologize if ever given a straight answer on the subject. Until then I am only left with my suspicions.

Suspicions confirmed. I won't be giving that apology. Edited November 1, 2013 by Chucktshoes

[daddyo]

After reading my posts do you think I have implied it does? After seeing part two of that video, seeing that the Chief took the time to come out, and hearing what he had to say; I think he may have a talk with that Officer.

 

Some of the points he made were not relevant, even if he was citing state law. Unless I missed it somewhere, they were not asked to leave. Even if they were, they apparently didn't make a big deal out of it. In any case, they were complying with state law.

Also, even though LE has the right under the law to request ID, they have no right to continue to detain someone if reasonable suspicion does not exist.

He did, however show these young ladies the respect that they were due. The other officer clearly did not and was way out of line.

[DaveS]

I'm more concerned by the fact that somebody who lists working in law enforcement (or previously) and lives in TN doesn't know what 39-17-1351r1 means....  How exactly do you go through POST certification and not know what that is referencing and how to look it up on Lexus/Nexus?

I honestly wasn't going to reply to this thread; but I feel a need to defend myself here. First of all, I joined the Army in 1972 as an MP. (gives me the right to use the badge Icon here). Spent 13 years as an MP Game Warden (again gives me the right to use the Icon), Spent from 1987 to 2010 as a Firefighter/EMT (again gives me the right to use the badge Icon) Spent from 2010 until recently as a member of the USFWS (again using the badge Icon)  where did I ever say I was LEO in this thread?

 

I didn't give a crap about 39-17-1351r1 yesterday, don't give a crap about it today, and damn sure won't worry about it tomorrow. I just don't give a rats rear!

 

If you have any problem about me using the Badge Icon, file a complaint with the moderators and leave me the hell alone about it.

 

Let me ask you sir; what's your resume say?

 

DaveS

[DaveS]

I hope you're wrong, but I agree some posts raise serious questions...  Not that I would ever tell forum admins what to do, but I'd think somebody who falsely claimed to the a current or retired LEO would be quickly dealt with.

Well...are you going to file a complaint? Deal with it JayC...you always have the right answers! Falsely huh? LMFAO!

 

DaveS

Edited November 14, 2013 by DaveS

[Luke E.]

 First off this thread had nothing to do with DaveS's history or current status and i'm not sure why this turned into a dog pile.?. Sure DaveS expressed his OPINION as did many others and i'm not gonna lie, I don't hold all the same opinions as DaveS but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to hold or share those opinions. This is a forum and if opinions weren't allowed there would be only the rules thread to read. We all can't agree all the time but I sure think we should have some respect for one another, we are all on here for the same reason right? Firearms and general conversation with "like minded individuals". Of course all this is just my OPINION and it may be worth no more than you've paid for it.

 

 As for the topic at hand, I have a family full of past and present military, law enforcement and Wildlife law enforcement men and was from from a young child to respect men and women in those positions (and everyone else for that matter). I was also taught right and wrong as well as to demand that those that I show respect do return the favor. The first "officer" was a douche canoe and right from the onset showed no respect for anyone involved and in my opinion there is no place for folks like him in any authoritative position. The Police Chief that showed up in the second video, while I didn't agree 100% with every details he spoke, was VERY respectful which earned him the respect of the first "officers" "subjects". I'm almost positive that everyone in the group didn't agree with every word that came out of the Chief's mouth but they showed him respect. not because of the badge but because he showed them respect right from the rip. I've said this here before but, when I'm pulled over or confronted by an officer I give them the benefit of the doubt that they are going to be a decent respectable people and even if i'm not legally obligated to produce an ID, if someone made a call and me showing my ID will make life easier on the officer who showed me respect then I will hand it over every time. Now if I have a feeling that the officer is being disrespectful and going on a fishing expedition, i'm going to make things as hard on him as I possibly can up to and including making a phone call that goes over his head.

 

 When in doubt,  "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you" Matthew 7:12 This I've found to be a good way to start any interaction and I discovered this after years of doing otherwise.