MO Cop to open-carry chicks: "Show me your papers!"

[daddyo]

I agree that the Cop was a jerk. I've stated that in earlier posts. I just can't get over that everyone (so it seems) wants to video the cops. Well, on the other hand, we record them on dash cam so I guess it's turn-a-bouts fair play.

DaveS

A cop starts giving me grief when he has no probable cause to suspect me of a crime and you bet your ass I'm going to record everything he does and says for my own protection. Edited October 27, 2013 by daddyo

[DaveS]

A cop starts giving me grief when he has no probable cause to suspect me of a crime and you bet your ass I'm going to record everything he does and says for my own protection.

Wouldn't you think that carrying a gun would be "probable cause" to get ID'd? I think it is if a citizen filed a complaint.

 

DaveS

[DaveTN]

Wouldn't you think that carrying a gun would be "probable cause" to get ID'd? I think it is if a citizen filed a complaint.
 
DaveS

A citizen isn’t required to file a complaint in this state. Carrying a gun is a crime and if someone calls (or a cop sees you) the cops can/will check it out and you will show an HCP or lose it.
I don’t agree with that, but until it becomes a right for all citizens; that’s the way it is.

[Chucktshoes]

Wouldn't you think that carrying a gun would be "probable cause" to get ID'd? I think it is if a citizen filed a complaint.

DaveS

In a state like MO where the open carrying of a firearm is not a crime, the courts have ruled that it does not rise to the level of providing RAS for a Terry stop. In MO or any other unlicensed OC state walking down the street with a gun on your hip is the legal equivalent of walking down the street wearing a red shirt.

[DaveS]

A citizen isn’t required to file a complaint in this state. Carrying a gun is a crime and if someone calls (or a cop sees you) the cops can/will check it out and you will show an HCP or lose it.
I don’t agree with that, but until it becomes a right for all citizens; that’s the way it is.

So many people think that because they aren't actively committing  a crime (robbery ect), LE has no right to ID them. Everyone that carries unfortunately is not an honest law biding citizen. Unless they are ID'd and their license ran, no one will know if they are legally carrying or not, or is a convicted felon, or otherwise not permitted to have a gun. That's been my argument for years Dave. All I have to say is, if you don't want stopped and ID'd, leave your gun at home!

 

DaveS

[DaveS]

In a state like MO where the open carrying of a firearm is not a crime, the courts have ruled that it does not rise to the level of providing RAS for a Terry stop. In MO or any other unlicensed OC state walking down the street with a gun on your hip is the legal equivalent of walking down the street wearing a red shirt.

Are convicted felons permitted to carry in MO? How is an officer supposed to know, if he/she doesn't ID the person with the gun. Please answer that for me? That's my whole point. ID's have to be checked and run through the system. No way around it.

 

DaveS

[Fallguy]

So many people think that because they aren't actively committing  a crime (robbery ect), LE has no right to ID them. Everyone that carries unfortunately is not an honest law biding citizen. Unless they are ID'd and their license ran, no one will know if they are legally carrying or not, or is a convicted felon, or otherwise not permitted to have a gun. That's been my argument for years Dave. All I have to say is, if you don't want stopped and ID'd, leave your gun at home!

 

DaveS

 

In many states they don't have a right to ID someone just because they are armed. Running someone through NCIC can tell you if they are currently wanted, but AFAIK you'd have to run a criminal history to know if they are a convicted felon and criminal histories are pretty heavily audited so you generally need a pretty good reason to run one and not sure someone in possession of a firearm in a state where it's legal without a permit would hold up.

 

My argument is I should be able to be left alone unless I am suspected of committing a crime and in many states openly carrying a firearm is not a crime.

[Chucktshoes]

Are convicted felons permitted to carry in MO? How is an officer supposed to know, if he/she doesn't ID the person with the gun. Please answer that for me? That's my whole point. ID's have to be checked and run through the system. No way around it.

DaveS

That question is a red herring and not germane to the discussion at hand. The courts have pretty consistently ruled against your position. If the carrying of a gun is not in and of itself a crime then there is no legal right for the officer to demand ID on the basis of identifying the citizen's (not subject) legal status. To put it bluntly, unless the citizen is or has engaged in an activity that provided RAS for the stop to fall under Terry V. Ohio, then who the citizen is and their legal status is none of the officer's business without being consensually provided by the citizen. Edited October 28, 2013 by Chucktshoes

[Dennis1209]

I seldom see anyone open carry around my neck of the woods, however... Not long ago I was at a Cracker Barrel in Murray, KY. standing in line with my wife to be seated. While everyone else seemed oblivious to the fact the big guy standing right in front of me was OC. To pass the time I asked the guy, "hey, is that a Kimber CDP II you're wearing"? He gave me a puzzling look like how... I said I own one too, but didn't raise my shirt to compare notes if you will. Great way to meet people and pass the time waiting in line. Sure beats talking about purses or high heel shoes doesn't it gentleman?

 

Anyway, to each their own. I personally prefer surprises and don't advertise my wares. I believe the police officer was probably having a bad day and being filmed probably didn't help the situation. There's no doubt they were trolling for attention and that one dude that stated he was unarmed sure did flub up his prepared speech on 2nd Amendment issues. If you go looking for a confrontation with the authorities you're probably going to get your wish.  

 

Then again, if open carry is legal and you are detained by law enforcement solely for OC, a simple presentation of a DL and HCP should have immediately sufficed. It appears some liberal called 9-1-1 and made a complaint and the cop went a little overboard, O.K. maybe a lot overboard?

[DaveS]

That question is a red herring and not germane to the discussion at hand. The courts have pretty consistently ruled against your position. If the carrying of a gun is not in and of itself a crime then there is no legal right for the officer to demand ID on the basis of identifying the citizen's (not subject) legal status. To put it bluntly, unless the citizen is or has engaged in an activity that provided RAS for the stop to fall under Terry V. Ohio, then who the citizen is and their legal status is none of the officer's business without being consensually provided by the citizen.

So in other words, cops do not have to check out complaints about a person carrying a gun? I'd like to see that happen!

 

DaveS

[Chucktshoes]

So in other words, cops do not have to check out complaints about a person carrying a gun? I'd like to see that happen!

DaveS

There is difference between checking out someone due to a mwag call and having the ability to compel them to produce ID or answer questions.

[DaveS]

The cops in this video, were they called out or just happen by? If they just happened by, MO cops walk the beat with M-4's? Something's amiss here. If they were called out, then the cop had every right to run their ID's. He did not have the right to be an ass though. I guess this will never sink in to some folks. I don't believe for one minute that this video was a Terry stop.

 

DaveS

[Chucktshoes]

If you demand my ID and do not allow me to leave, am I not being detained? If an officer detains me, are they not required to have a RAS that I have or am about to commit a crime?

[Guest RebelCowboySnB]

So in other words, cops do not have to check out complaints about a person carrying a gun? I'd like to see that happen!

 

DaveS

Not only do they not have to but they have no legal athority to.

 

Here is how MWAG calls play out in many places outside Tn.

 

911- 911 what is you emergency?

Caller- MWAG

911- what is he doing?

Caller- Nothing, but he has a gun.

911- Carry or firearms is legal in this state. Pleas call us back things change but as long as he is not doing anything ilegal there is nothing we can do. I would be happy to send an officer out though to talk to you about the law an what your rights are if you would like.

 

[DaveS]

If you demand my ID and do not allow me to leave, am I not being detained? If an officer detains me, are they not required to have a RAS that I have or am about to commit a crime?

 

Not only do they not have to but they have no legal athority to.

 

Here is how MWAG calls play out in many places outside Tn.

 

:surrender:

 

DaveS

[daddyo]

Wouldn't you think that carrying a gun would be "probable cause" to get ID'd? I think it is if a citizen filed a complaint.

 

DaveS

 

In TN, yes. If he's respectful and polite, no problem. If he's a dick about it, the video camera goes on.

[DaveS]

Not only do they not have to but they have no legal athority to.

 

Here is how MWAG calls play out in many places outside Tn.

And you know that's how it plays out?

 

DaveS

[Guest RebelCowboySnB]

And you know that's how it plays out?

 

DaveS

Yep.

 

In other places they just send a cop who makes visual contact to make sure but never approches.

[DaveTN]

There is difference between checking out someone due to a mwag call and having the ability to compel them to produce ID or answer questions.

Correct. And there is no law that says a cop can’t stop you and ask for ID if you are carrying a gun. In some states you are free to refuse to answer his questions and leave. Tennessee is not one of those states.  
 

If you demand my ID and do not allow me to leave, am I not being detained? If an officer detains me, are they not required to have a RAS that I have or am about to commit a crime?

Yes, when the Police stop you, you can refuse to ID and ask if you are free to leave (but not in this state if you are carrying a gun). If they tell you no, then you are not free to leave and they do whatever they are going to do. Then one of four things will happen; you are arrested for whatever they are looking at you for, you leave when they are done, you leave and go to the Department and make a citizens complaint, or you leave and go get an attorney. That’s the way it’s been for many years and continues to be so. You are responsible for knowing and understanding your rights if you decide to draw a line in the sand; same thing goes for the cops. Everyone is responsible for their actions.

[Chucktshoes]

Correct. And there is no law that says a cop can’t stop you and ask for ID if you are carrying a gun. In some states you are free to refuse to answer his questions and leave. Tennessee is not one of those states.

Yes, when the Police stop you, you can refuse to ID and ask if you are free to leave (but not in this state if you are carrying a gun). If they tell you no, then you are not free to leave and they do whatever they are going to do. Then one of four things will happen; you are arrested for whatever they are looking at you for, you leave when they are done, you leave and go to the Department and make a citizens complaint, or you leave and go get an attorney. That’s the way it’s been for many years and continues to be so. You are responsible for knowing and understanding your rights if you decide to draw a line in the sand; same thing goes for the cops. Everyone is responsible for their actions.

How'd we end up in agreement on a subject? :lol:
There is not a word of what you have written here that I would disagree with. I understand the difference between what the law is and what I think it should be regardless of whether I agree with it or not. When I draw a line in the sand I do it with open eyes and acceptance for all possible outcomes.

[Q-tip]

I'm just glad the courts have ruled similarly and over numerous rulings in great detail what police can and cannot do during a stop that involves a firearm in a state where no license is required to OC. That way we don't have to argue about it  :up:

[jcluff]

[quote name="DaveS" post="1054113" timestamp="1382794369"] "....in Nazi style, he's gathering up papers... " Actually I think he's doing his job in collecting ID's "to run". Everyone says "they are committing no crime". I guess the officer had no idea if any of those armed folks were felons or not. Running ID was the only way to find out. Folks, if we don't want to go through this stuff, CONCEAL it! Except those idiots walking around cop fishing with a gun and video camera. The cop could have done a little better, but I suppose that's his personality. This crap is getting out of hand! I'll speak for myself. I don't want some jerk with a video camera try to represent me and my rights! DaveS[/quote]did the officer have any reason to. Think they would be felons? I do not believe an officer has a right to just run a check on anybody they please unless they have a reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed. (not including Nashville where OC is illegal and a valid HCP is a defense) Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Edited October 29, 2013 by jcluff

[GuitaRx]

Spit my coffee, picturing you and what’s his name walking hand in hand through downtown Nashville.

 

:rofl:

[DaveS]

did the officer have any reason to.

Apparently he did. Maybe a 911 call of a report of MWAG. Then he had no choice but to ID them.

 

DaveS

[Chucktshoes]

Apparently he did. Maybe a 911 call of a report of MWAG. Then he had no choice but to ID them.

DaveS

Wrong. Already been covered many, many times. Call or no call, absent any other evidence of a crime, the carrying of a gun where legal does not meet the threshold to warrant a Terry Stop.