Talk about putting the Police in a tight spot

[Guest TankerHC]

If I am late to the ballgame please delete.

 

Looks to me like they did everything they could possibly do to wait him out or end it without casualties. They held off, they used non lethal force, they used cameras to see before the entry. Not a whole lot more that they could do. At 107 years old, could this be a suicide by cop? Dementia? Who knows. But clearly the Police did everything possible to end the situation before they did what they had to do. He was shooting at a SWAT team and initially they werent even shooting back. 

 

Still a shame that someone could live so long and go out like that. 

 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/09/08/107-year-old-man-killed-by-swat-team-in-arkansas/?intcmp=obnetwork

Edited September 14, 2013 by TankerHC

[BigK]

+1 nobody on that SWAT team woke up that morning expecting to have to shoot a 107 yr old man

I hate that it ended like that for both the family of the old man and the cops/their families. That's a crappy thing to have to do, but it appears they did everything they could to prevent it.

[Guest nra37922]

107 yr old man and they couldn't wait til he fell asleep?  After all it wasn't like he was going to go anywhere...

[UncleJak]

I have to wonder what causes a man that is 107 to want to do this. There is a underlying cause or he is senile.

sent barefoot from the hills of Tennessee

[Dustbuster]

When a 107 yr man is getting charged for assault I really do want to hear the back story. One can speculate all day,but firing through a door when a doorbell rings makes me wonder too.thats always been one of my fears. Some of the most precious lessons in life come from folks close to his age....on a sad note when a soldier makes a kill he usually ends with a high 5 and a beer When any le has a shooting its paid leave with a session with. Psych before returning to work. Guess that team leaves on a cruise within 2 weeks.... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 of course it ate my spelling. Edited September 14, 2013 by Dustbuster

[Guest TankerHC]

Here is why it happened.

 

Respect your elders. Obviously he had some level of dementia, thinking his grandaughter was breaking into his home. I can see this, however, going in several different possible directions. Wont even say what, but someone is going to use this shooting for their gain. Probably more than one person.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/slain-107-year-talked-shooting-20218408

Edited September 14, 2013 by TankerHC

[TripleDigitRide]

That's a tough call. I guess they could have kept the camera on him until he fell asleep, but maybe something like that wasn't an option for one reason or another. With that being said, you start shooting a gun in my direction, all bets are off, 107 or not.

[Guest nra37922]

Details from the article

 

1.  Police in Pine Bluff, Arkansas say a 107-year-old man was killed in a shootout with a SWAT team Saturday afternoon. 

2.  When police approached the bedroom door where Isadore was holed up, he fired one shot through the door. No one was hit. 

3.  The SWAT team confirmed that Isadore was armed with a handgun by inserting a camera into the bedroom through a window.

4.  After negotiations were unsuccessful, the SWAT team pumped gas in the room from outside the bedroom window, hoping that Isadore would surrender peacefully.

5.  Instead, Isador fired more shots at a SWAT entry team, who threw a "distraction device" into the room after breaching the door.

6.  Isadore continued shooting at the entry team, who finally shot and killed him.

Local police said that the investigation is ongoing, but provided no further details. 

 

Come on guys, can you really support this?  107 years old, holed up in a bedroom wasn't going to go anywhere.  They could have just as easily blocked off the area and waited him out.  POORLY handled by the local Police Dept. 

[DaveTN]

 

 

 

Come on guys, can you really support this?  107 years old, holed up in a bedroom wasn't going to go anywhere.  They could have just as easily blocked off the area and waited him out.  POORLY handled by the local Police Dept. 

 

Ever faced an active shooter? Did you check their age before returning fire?

[Dolomite_supafly]

I don't care if the person is 7 or 107 if they are trying to kill me I will try to stop that threat. If a firearm is being used then expect the same level of force to be returned, regardless of age, in order to stop the threat. Him being 107 has about as much to do with it as the color of his underwear.

 

Anyone can assault another, be it someone who is 7 or 107 or somewhere in between. Just because one person doesn't feel it was an assault doesn't mean it isn't an assault or that another person feels the same way. Now I might be embarrassed to admit I was assaulted by a 107 year old but it doesn't mean it didn't happen or that the person could not be charged. It also depends on the type of assault. If a 107 year old fires a gun at me then I would, as most would, feel that an assault took place.There are a lot of things that a 107 year old can do to assault another. Here he is pointing, and shooting, a firearm at innocent people who ahve a legal right to enter his house.

 

An assault doesn't even require physical contact to be made. All that is required is for someoen to be afraid it may happen. Acting like you are going to hit someone, even if you don't make contact, is an assault. Pointing a weapon at someone IS an assault so the officers had a legal right to be there and the criminal, on the other hand, did not have a legal right to shoot at the officers.

 

If his family, or doctors, knew he had dementia then they should have prevented his access toa  firearm. Once again the fear of hurting someone's feelings lead to a more serious problem. Had they removed the firearm long ago, like they should have, it would ahve upset the elderly man but he wouldn't be dead today.

 

As far as waiting that might have helped but what happens if he is an insomniac and never goes to sleep? How long are you supposed to tie up resources and wait to enter to do your job that you are legally allowed, and perhaps required, to do? Or what if he decides to start randomly shooting through walls and injures a innocent person. At what point do you risk innocent people to save someone who is committing serious, as in felony, crimes? The 107 year old man was committing crimes that could have easily killed others. He was a criminal and age had zero to do with it.

 

Now his age, and any underlying mental condition, may have come out during his trial as mitigating factors but are we supposed to allow him to continue to commit crimes because he is 107 or has a mental condition? I think not.

[Guest nra37922]

NOT bashing the police but IMHO they used extremely poor judgement in this situation and could have waited him out.  But they didn't and he did shoot at them and now he's dead.  What the hell he was 107 years old and was going to die sooner rather than later anyway...

[Spots]

NOT bashing the police but IMHO they used extremely poor judgement in this situation and could have waited him out. But they didn't and he did shoot at them and now he's dead. What the hell he was 107 years old and was going to die sooner rather than later anyway...

Normally I have no issue calling bad police out, maybe to the point that some of my post could be seen a LEO bashing. But in this instance a man shot at them through a door. What if that had been a girl scout selling cookies, or a neighbor checking up on him? This doesn't fall on the cops, it falls squarely on the family. If they used tear gas and he didnt surrender, and continued firing at them upon entering then they did what was necassary. Like Dolomite said, 7 or 107 if you shoot at me then I will respond with like force.

Tapatalk ate my spelling.

[bersaguy]

I have mixed feeling about this whole issue.  It was not like the police did not know this man. They had spent time with a few weeks earlier. They knew most everything about him. If he had a gun stolen a short time before and he told the police then that they would have to be shoot him or put him in jail should have given them an indication he had another gun. Now fact that he fired at police is true but if he really wanted to kill someone why didn't he kill that woman he accused of breaking into is home and hour earlier. Now you have a man 107 years old and you have gassed him in his bedroom. I'm sure with a short time the gas would have put him down or made it easy to enter and over power him. I don't know how many folks here have ever been in close quarters with tear gas but take my word for it. You never want to experience it. Been there and done that and nothing about it is fun............jmho  but I think they could have waited him out.

[Erik88]

 

Details from the article

 

1.  Police in Pine Bluff, Arkansas say a 107-year-old man was killed in a shootout with a SWAT team Saturday afternoon. 

2.  When police approached the bedroom door where Isadore was holed up, he fired one shot through the door. No one was hit. 

3.  The SWAT team confirmed that Isadore was armed with a handgun by inserting a camera into the bedroom through a window.

4.  After negotiations were unsuccessful, the SWAT team pumped gas in the room from outside the bedroom window, hoping that Isadore would surrender peacefully.

5.  Instead, Isador fired more shots at a SWAT entry team, who threw a "distraction device" into the room after breaching the door.

6.  Isadore continued shooting at the entry team, who finally shot and killed him.

Local police said that the investigation is ongoing, but provided no further details. 

 

Come on guys, can you really support this?  107 years old, holed up in a bedroom wasn't going to go anywhere.  They could have just as easily blocked off the area and waited him out.  POORLY handled by the local Police Dept. 

 

 

It's easy to judge from the comfort of your couch. Why don't you walk a mile in their shoes? PD's don't have unlimited resources to be able to sit and wait for someone to leave their house.

 

[bersaguy]

Normally I have no issue calling bad police out, maybe to the point that some of my post could be seen a LEO bashing. But in this instance a man shot at them through a door. What if that had been a girl scout selling cookies, or a neighbor checking up on him? This doesn't fall on the cops, it falls squarely on the family. If they used tear gas and he didnt surrender, and continued firing at them upon entering then they did what was necassary. Like Dolomite said, 7 or 107 if you shoot at me then I will respond with like force.

Tapatalk ate my spelling.

 

I can agree with most of your argument except the Girl scout selling cookies because a girl scout would not have been in his house knocking on his bedroom door and most times when a neighbor comes over to check on a person they will make themselves know that they are coming in or announce they are there. I know because my neighbors check on me from time to time if they don't seem me out side at least once a day and they know I am most always armed so they will call or knock and say their name out loud to let me know who is knocking. All in all I honestly think the Old gentleman really got what he wanted and that was peace and I feel bad for the officer for what he will go through.

[bersaguy]

It's easy to judge from the comfort of your couch. Why don't you walk a mile in their shoes? PD's don't have unlimited resources to be able to sit and wait for someone to leave their house.

 

I think that the old gentleman deserved as much consideration and any other human being and I have see police departments wait a lot longer for a negotiator to work with someone than they gave him. .............jmho

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

All that doesnt matter...He started shooting..they returned  fire to take out the threat .

He knew what he was doing.

 

He was old enough to know better..he was apparently  well enough to know what he was doing..maybe he wanted to go out like that..

 When you take away his age..what do you have?   a scenario where the police handled it just like most other situations.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Active shooter? Whose home was he in? Why was SWAT called? It could be that he fired one through the door when he

was provoked by the SWAT team telling him they were going to grab him and take him in. And the question about the woman

he could have shot is a good one. Why didn't he shoot her. They could have waited. The dementia ain't obvious, either.

 

But I wasn't there.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

All that doesnt matter...He started shooting..they returned  fire to take out the threat .

He knew what he was doing.

 

He was old enough to know better..he was apparently  well enough to know what he was doing..maybe he wanted to go out like that..

 When you take away his age..what do you have?   a scenario where the police handled it just like most other situations.

The Hell it doesn't matter. This resolution of using SWAT is probably part of the problem. What did we see before the

militarization of the police department? How do you know what he was doing or thinking, other than what the article

implied? 

 

These things go on all too often, or at least they get air time, often. I'd love to see more information before I pass

judgement on any individual. The police should have much more of a threshold to reach before they use deadly

force, in cases like this. That old man could be guilty of something we will never know about, now. He could have

startled and not known what was really at his door, also.

 

And if it is cop bashing, you be the judge. I won't waste any time arguing that silliness, but it could been handled a

lot differently.

[gregintenn]

Why has it become common practice for law enforcement to send SWAT teams to calls one guy used to take care of?

[bersaguy]

Active shooter? Whose home was he in? Why was SWAT called? It could be that he fired one through the door when he

was provoked by the SWAT team telling him they were going to grab him and take him in. And the question about the woman

he could have shot is a good one. Why didn't he shoot her. They could have waited. The dementia ain't obvious, either.

 

But I wasn't there.

I think in the second article I read that the woman came to move him to his new home and he was excited about it and then when she came back he had locked himself in his bed room. His daughter talked him into letting her in and she spoke with him and pointed the gun at her and accused her of breaking in his home yet he did not shoot her. To me that sounds very much like a stage of dementia that came and went. Being excited about moving one minute and refusing to go a short time later. I wonder what the daughter may have done to him between the time the woman spoke with him about moving and then returning to get him?..................Something just does not add up except maybe dementia...........jmho

[bersaguy]

Why has it become common practice for law enforcement to send SWAT teams to calls one guy used to take care of?

 

That one is easy to answer. The Swat Training for police departments began right after those two bank robbers in I think it was Miami back in the late 70's early 80's gave the FBI a royal butt kicking in that shoot out that lasted for over an hour and several FBI agents were killed and wounded because the FBI and local police were totally out gunned and finally the police prevailed. The FBI still uses that film in their training program to this day

[leroy]

I cant believe what im readin here from some of ya.... If the police cant handle a 107 year old guy without an armed entry with a distraction blast, then shootin him; we are in deep trouble... This was poorly (...and tragically...) handled...

 

Folks are gonna have to quit carryin the water for these SWAT "dynamic entries" and come to the realization that there are some bad people wearin badges and guns; and some buffoons commanding them... This aint a dammed video game; its real life and a poor old out of his mind man is dead because of this nonsense...

 

At best, this is a terrible mistake... At worst it is a police commando murder...  God forbid these folks come and protect you, me or anybody else...

 

This is another Branch Dividian thing, abeit on a smaller scale.   It's capricious (...and most likely criminal...) use of deadly force to and military tactics to take out a crippled up, childish old man...  If the police cant handle poor, demented 107 year olds without killin 'em; you had better be afraid when they come to your house....

 

And, by the way, i aint a SWAT team member, nor do i play one in video games or on TV;  and (...thank God...) ive never made a police entry... That dont mean a dammed thing here... You need to think before ya kill people...Especially the oldest and youngest among us..

 

This is, in fact, a tragedy and most likely a crime to boot.... Havin said that, i'm willin to bet that someone will cover for this disgraceful act....

 

leroy

[Erik88]

Why has it become common practice for law enforcement to send SWAT teams to calls one guy used to take care of?

 

If you knew you were going to a call where you were probably  going to get shot at would you want to go alone?

[bersaguy]

If you knew you were going to a call where you were probably  going to get shot at would you want to go alone?

 

If you knew you were going to a call where you were probably  going to get shot at would you want to go alone?

See my previous post............. :up: