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[TMF]

What ever happened to all that "free market" talk?  I guess it only works when you're gouging but not when you get called out on it in front of everyone.  Free market goes both ways.  You can buy up all the supply and make a few bucks, but people absolutely have the right so throw your sorry ass under the bus.

[turkeydad]

What a mess. . .I aint trying to hijack this thread but I would really appreciate some opinions on whether or not it is gouging or taking away from the shooting community. . just because the virtual community that is TGO is important to me and and I dont want to be someone to harm people that I do care about,

 

I have sold some ammo on this sight. .but I have never bought anything anywhere for the purpose of selling here. . Examples i sold Poordog some 7.62x39 at the best price SGammo listed (they were out at the time but it was the cheapest price I could find at the time). .I did not pay that much for this ammo a year and half earlier and told him that at the time . . I sold some winchester white box 9mm at best market price I could find that I had bought when it was cheaper along time ago but only to replace it with the winchester 124 grain nato fmj which I kept because I have a very mild tendency to occasionally limp wrist with lower pressure loads ( it is rare but sometimes happens to me) but never with hotter ammo. . I sold 6.8 AR a bunch high power buckshot that I had gotten when it was cheaper only for the purpose of getting the low recoil that was the same price that I sold the high power in the same brand from AIM . . .When SGammo finally starting getting the golden tiger in I sold a case of Wolf for the same that it cost to get the GT just because I like it better. . is that hurting the community? Is that gouging?

 

I personally dont think that it is it. . but I know everyones moral compass is not exactly alike. . are sales like that harmful like trolling gunbot, walmart or whatever just to buy something to jack up the price and resell it above current retail for profit here or on Armslist. . but I must admit I did sell ammo for more than I paid for it . . so to the community am I percieved to be "beyond unscrupulous" by the community that I care about?

 

Edit for other than grammar. . I guess I wanted to make my community understand that anything I sold was NOT removed from the shelf during hard times for the purpose of making money at the gun communities expense.  .especially when seeing this thread take the turns it has over someone (whether profiteer or not) was just telling this communtity where they could get some .22 and Im certainly not defending Benton B. . aka nunya because I too dislike the idea of taking stuff off the shelf just sell to someone who wants to consume it at higher price. .  as there are obviously good folks on this sight who are passionate about this subject I only wanted to clarify my actions and calibrate my moral compass with my community. ..

 

Thanks

Edited September 12, 2013 by turkeydad

[Hozzie]

To the post above, I don't think selling some spare ammo you have that you don't really need for a reasonable price is gouging.  I think when you make it a "business" to buy anything you can and try to sell it for considerably higher prices than normal market value, then yes you are moving into the gouging arena.  I consider normal market value to be Walmart prices or slightly higher, but not 75 -100% higher.  I think for most, it's not just the high prices that get people worked up, it's the concerted effort to take advantage of people and then make excuses as to why it is ok.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Hozzie

[TMF]

Based on what I can tell from talking to the sporting goods folks at the various Walmarts in my area, there are around 6 guys who are buying up all the stock of .22. Same ones each shipment and they will have buddies buy as well and give them a cut of the profits to get around the 3 box limit. This is the example of the kind of scalping that should earn people a beating. That same ammo is sold for three times or more what the actual retail cost is, so the only hope is to buy online if you want .22 at a decent price, however, now you're in the national competition with all the scalpers out there. At least hoarders have a good reason. Scalpers are just trying to make a buck off their fellow man by keeping the panic going. I hope more scalpers are called out and mentally recorded.

[monkeylizard]

turkeydad, it sounds to me like you took a good opportunity to move some old stock and turn a reasonable profit. I have no problem with that. Even if you had sold at the inflated prices, you'd have only been gouging and not perpetuating the problem because your were moving old stock and actually increasing the available supply (very slightly). The scalpers are perpetuating the current problem by both buying the limited supply and gouging on their resale price.

 

I've sold some of my old stock to people who were ammo-poor and made a buck or two on a box here and there because the fair market (not crazy market) price had simply gone up since I bought it. I've also given away about as much as I've sold over the years.

Edited September 12, 2013 by monkeylizard

[DaveS]

Benton,

Have you been paying sales tax for the items you have sold?  I can link you to the proper form if need be.  You should cover all your bases.

Isn't this kind of stirring the pot a bit?

 

DaveS

[Dane]

Problem with the logic in this thread is that there are buyers at the prices you consider "gouging". As with any product, so long as there are buyers at a given price there will be sellers. I have watched the price of a bulk pack of .22 drop over the last few I months from close to $100 down to around $40-50. That tells me that the buyer pool is drying up and those "gougers" will be out of the game shortly.

Now, had these people not been buying up every box of .22 available we still would not have it on the shelves. The same people that are paying $60+ a box would have been right there to collect it off the truck at every retailer in the area.

Very simply, if you don't like the price then don't buy from that person/business. But no reason to get all bent out of shape over it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Dolomite_supafly]

Based on what I can tell from talking to the sporting goods folks at the various Walmarts in my area, there are around 6 guys who are buying up all the stock of .22. Same ones each shipment and they will have buddies buy as well and give them a cut of the profits to get around the 3 box limit. This is the example of the kind of scalping that should earn people a beating. That same ammo is sold for three times or more what the actual retail cost is, so the only hope is to buy online if you want .22 at a decent price, however, now you're in the national competition with all the scalpers out there. At least hoarders have a good reason. Scalpers are just trying to make a buck off their fellow man by keeping the panic going. I hope more scalpers are called out and mentally recorded.

 

Same at my local Walmart.

 

I have been trying to get with the manager to offer to him a stamp the says "Originally sold at Walmart". This would hopefully keep some people from buying it. Or a stamp that says "Not for resale". While it is unenforceable legally it would raise enough suspicions to keep them from being resold.

 

In 2008 Bass Pro had some guys who would block the isles while their buddies would load up carts on shipment days. If you tried to get by those blocking the ends of the isle they would start screaming about how they were being assaulted. They would scream they were calling the cops and such. It was such a circus that most people didn't want to take a chance on getting by. I talked to a salesperson and asked if the manager knew. They said the manager did and didn;t care because the ammo was being sold. That was probably the last time I bought ammo, or anything other than a soda and beef jerky, from the store. I will not support a store that supports that kind of antics. I didn't even go back and use my points.

 

I met a dealer who was buying all the ammo when bricks were $12. I asked if I could get a brick and he said sure, $20. He wanted me to give him $20 then he would hand me a brick and I would have to pay for the brick. I laughed and he said if I decided I wanted to buy some come to XXX gunshop but it would be $37. That was his mistake. After that I blasted the story on every single board I could find. I told all my shooting friends and they spread the word. Six months after this he shut his doors when every other dealer was doing well.

 

Like you said, they have every right to ask whatever they want but I have every right to blast them if I am not happy about it.

[JAB]

Now, had these people not been buying up every box of .22 available we still would not have it on the shelves. The same people that are paying $60+ a box would have been right there to collect it off the truck at every retailer in the area.

 

And they would be buying it at a normal price from a regular retailer that is a normal part of the supply/demand chain rather than paying overinflated prices to profiteers who are interrupting the normal supply/demand chain and contributing to a perceived shortage, thereby creating a FALSE market, not a free market.

 

As others have said, a person who decides to sell something they have decided that don't need, cannot use, etc. is not the same.  A person or business that obtains goods from a regular supplier and sells to the public at a normal, retail price is not the same.  A person who makes a product and sells it to the public is not the same.  A person who knowingly and willfully buys a high demand item from a retailer - and uses straw man purchases (i.e. brings his buddies with him) to skirt rules put in place by said retailer to try and prevent exactly what that person is doing - is not 'just another entrepreneur participating in the free market economy.'  Instead, such a person is a profiteer who is falsely manipulating the market to be able to sell at ridiculous prices.

Edited September 12, 2013 by JAB

[monkeylizard]

Very simply, if you don't like the price then don't buy from that person/business. But no reason to get all bent out of shape over it.

 

 

That only works if there's an alternative place to buy. If a bunch of dudes show up with big holding tanks at every gas station every time a delivery truck shows up and bleed them dry at their $3.45/gal asking price, then setup shop in an empty lot across the street selling it for $10/gal, you would just say "oh well....they can ask what they want for it, I don't have to buy it from them." ?

[TMF]

Well I haven't been buying any at all. I won't contribute to the nonsense other than buying ammo from a dealer when it's available. I'd rather not shoot than line the pockets of some POS trying to profit from market panic.

[Troutburger]

I've quit buying too, and just reloading my stash.

 

PSA had 375 rounds of CCI for $64.99, if people would quit buying it the price would drop quickly. 

 

If people would quit buying from the secondary market it would go away too. 

[TrickyNicky]

I didn't buy for the better part of last year and most of this one. Little by little I've been stocking up again through local retailers and a bit online.

I've bought probably 3k-4k worth of 22lr in that time frame, all reasonably priced (as in MSRP) if not exactly what most people are looking for.
I'm hurting on the cheap value pack stuff but I'm doing well on CB, subsonic and other specialty rounds.

I'm not a fan of those going out and intentionally making things hard for their fellow man, I'd love to start a group locally that shows up before the gougers at Walmart and buys all the stock to either shoot or even sell at retail pricing. Plus we could talk about what we were doing loud enough for the gougers to hear, hopefully they'd feel enough shame to head home and rethink their priorities, but I doubt it.

[TGO David]

What a mess. . .I aint trying to hijack this thread but I would really appreciate some opinions on whether or not it is gouging or taking away from the shooting community. . just because the virtual community that is TGO is important to me and and I dont want to be someone to harm people that I do care about,

 

I have sold some ammo on this sight. .but I have never bought anything anywhere for the purpose of selling here.

 

Red highlighted emphasis is mine.  THAT is the key difference.  You've sold what you already had, for whatever reason.  Be it you changed calibers, got rid of a gun entirely, whatever... it was yours already and you had no need for it.

 

The people I take issue with are the ones who clean out entire ammo supplies at stores to capitalize on "market panic".  They buy it from Wal-Mart or some other retailer and then dole it back out to people for a premium price because those people feel hostage to the situation.  It's morally and ethically wrong.  Benton offered up the sort of gouging that happened in Nashville during the flood a few years back as evidence that he's not guilty of gouging.  I say hogwash.  It's the same damn thing.

 

When a buying public feels that they have no alternative but pay an artificially inflated price for an item that the seller either partially or wholly controls the supply of, through nefarious means, then that seller is guilty of gouging.

 

I'm seriously teetering on the edge of actually wanting more government involvement in ammo sales as a result of this crap.

[BryanP]

You've sold what you already had, for whatever reason.  Be it you changed calibers, got rid of a gun entirely, whatever... it was yours already and you had no need for it.

 

The people I take issue with are the ones who clean out entire ammo supplies at stores to capitalize on "market panic".

 

Exactly.  When I decided to get out of .45 I sold and/or traded both of my .45 pistols and all of my ammo here via TGO.  The jerks who show up at Academy and Walmart for every shipment and clean them out of .22 just so they can stick it up online for inflated prices ... those are the guys I want to kick square in the nuts.

[TGO David]

Exactly.  When I decided to get out of .45 I sold and/or traded both of my .45 pistols and all of my ammo here via TGO.  The jerks who show up at Academy and Walmart for every shipment and clean them out of .22 just so they can stick it up online for inflated prices ... those are the guys I want to kick square in the nuts.

 

Ask me how many times I've gone shooting in the past 10 months.  It's embarrassing!  I haven't shot a single round because I don't want to burn up ammo I can't easily replace.  :(

[billyscott]

Don't know if this has been posted yet...

 

http://gunssavelives.net/blog/video-breaking-hornady-president-issues-statement-on-ammo-shortage/

[GlockSpock]

Well, there are unintended consequences and unintended benefits when someone purchases something like this for resale. First we must face a fact. If someone is paying $50 for a brick of ammo and Walmart places some of the shelf for $20, what is the fair market price? You have the ability to purchase it in a limited quantity at $20, but if people are actively paying $50 a brick, I argue that the true fair market value is $50. For this example, we will assume it is a "fair market" and disregard any potential "insider trading" or the like. Lots of people pay $50 for a brick, so the fair market value is $50.

 

That means that the $20 brick that Walmart is selling is undervalued. Econ. 101 will tell you when the selling price is below the equilibrium price, you will have a shortage. We see this when we go to Walmart and they have no bricks. Generally speaking though, I can find $50 bricks all day long if I am willing to pay that price for them. This, arguably, is the equilibrium point. Purchasers can find what they are looking for, and sellers are happy to sell it to them at that price.

 

Now, lets pretend that there wasn't a single person in the whole state of Tennessee that was buying ammo and reselling it. Lets pretend that Walmart keeps their prices at $20 a brick. However, the demand that we are seeing right now is still the same. Thus, it is very likely that anyone that would have paid $50 for a brick are now able to purchase 2.5 bricks for $50. Once again, since Walmart is selling their bricks at a price-point lower than market equilibrium, we have a shortage. However, in this scenario, since the ammo is going straight to the consumers, it is likely that all of this ammo would be shot or stored for usage later by the consumers. Thus, it would arguably be more difficult for you or I to find ammo because those purchasing it from Walmart would be using it.

 

I can find ammo today simply by going to Gunlistings.org, GunOwnersClub, Armslist, etc. It would be an inflated price from the Walmart price, but truthfully probbaly represents fair market value moreso than the Walmart price.

 

I don't speak up against re-sellers. I don't do it because I find myself having that "American Picker" mindset sometimes myself. Who hasn't purchased a used item at a great deal a time or two and "flipped it" to make a few bucks? Sure, if someone is going to do it time after time again and supplement their income by doing so, the right (and legal) way to do so would be opening a business, paying income taxes, etc. However, that issue should just as much be solved on the government level as it should be on the re-seller level. Some of you may agree with me and some of you will probably disagree with me, but eliminating the income tax and replacing it with a fair-tax type tax, and then you no longer have to worry about a lot of the "legal restrictions" so to say. However, I don't want to talk much about that in this thread, but perhaps we can talk about potential tax scenarios in another thread.

 

The bottom line is that, in my opinion, the problem lies not with the re-sellers but with the sellers. If Walmart is going to sell their ammo at below market price, we will see a shortage. All the re-sellers are doing is taking advantage of this gap between the Walmart price and the fair market value price, and while they should be paying income tax on doing so, we know many of them don't. Look in your local classifieds section and see how many of the "skilled labor" workers are paying income taxes on the side work they do.

 

There certainly is a line somewhere between what is an "honest" way of making a living and an "unethical sleazebag" way of making a living. I am not here to tell anyone where that line is. Lets take the richest person in the world. That person could afford to buy every gallon of gas in an are 500 square miles. Then they could attempt to resale it at a 10% markup. Or they could try for a 100% markup. Sleazy? Yes. Illegal? In some/most cases, probably. However, would the same implications be there if instead of much needed gasoline he were purchasing every single Hot Wheels Car he ever laid eyes on, effectively reducing the supply and then charging 200% for them?

 

They way I see it, re-sellers are providing a service of some sort. There are many people who either don't want to, don't know how to, or don't even know that you can order ammo from the internet.  Some of these people are the paranoid type who are afraid that purchasing 100 rounds of ammo will put them on a watchlist. You know these people. Some of them are members here. Some of them are reading this post. If you have ever considered "losing" your guns in a boating accident, you are one of these people. Some of them are just the older generation that doesn't order things on the internet. If someone is purchasing ammo on the internet and offering it to these people at a price they are willing to pay, you have equilibrium. Sure, many of these people have a competitive advantage in the fact that they are skipping on their taxes, but it is still equilibrium. You have a guy who made a few bucks, and you have a guy who purchased ammo at a price they were willing to pay. Many of you are wanting to place ammo in a "necessity class" and protect it from being marked up, but ultimately, just like any other good or service, it should go for market value.

 

The best, and likely only, thing that you can do to lower the price of ammo and eliminate re-sellers is to not support them. I for one do not purchase ammo from them, but I also do not speak out against them.

 

Also, I find it very ironic that the original purpose of this thread was to notify you of a place you could purchase in online at a reasonable price. If Benton wanted to purchase a bit extra when he could find it at a reasonable price and then help offset the cost of his original purpose, it doesn't bother me. Personally I have met him a few times, I thought he was a standup guy. He's done a few favors for me even though he doesn't know me that well. Last I checked, he has a job. He also has, just like everyone else, bills and a family to feed. I am not one to judge him for supplementing his income by making a few bucks extra a month if he can by buying and reselling ammo. Perhaps that is all that is allowing him to stay afloat? I don't know. Whether he pays appropriate taxes is between him and the IRS/Tennessee. It's just very ironic to me that he was attempting to help TGO'ers out by letting them know about a deal. Should he have removed his posts? Probably not, but who cares? It sounds like he is "out". If he wants to take "his" posts with him, it is an argument that could go either way on. 

 

Just my two cents.

[monkeylizard]

CZ9MM,

 

What you're missing is that the sellers (or re-sellers to be accurate) are manipulating the supply to drive that equilibrium price up.

 

Scenario: You and I are the entire buying (demand side) market and we each want some ammo, let's say 2 bricks of .22 each. A store called Wally's represents the entire supply side of the market.

 

Week 1 - Wally's is happy to sell those to us for $20 each. They know through market research that they can sell them for $25 each, but will sell fewer. They're a low-margin, high-volume store so they set the price at $20. They have one in stock, and should have some more in next week. I get there first, so I buy the brick at $20 and you get none.

 

Week 2 - I still want another brick and you still want two. You get the brick for $20 'cause you get there first, and we both have a little something to shoot, but we'll have to wait until next week when they expect a larger shipment of 3 bricks to show up to top off our supplies. We'll each plan to get our last brick and there'll be one left for later. Fantastic, right?

 

Week 3 - When the truck unloads at Wally's a fellow, (we'll call him BBJ) buys all 3 bricks before we can get there leaving the shelf bare. Now BBJ doesn't want to shoot them. For all we know, he doesn't even have a .22 firearm. He tells us in the parking lot that he'll gladly sell us each a box for $50. We say "screw you" and go back to shooting our remaining boolits from our 1st brick.

 

Week 4 - Wally's gets another couple of bricks in, but whaddayaknow, our old friend BBJ has scooped up both boxes and again offers to sell them for $50 in the parking lot. Now this time, you and I are getting pretty low on our supply and could really use that extra brick, but comeonman! $50? ain't gonna happen so we go home empty handed again.

 

Week 5 - Wally's doesn't get any on the truck. that's kind of normal for Wally's. Every week doesn't always bring in more .22 because some weeks there's still some sitting around from prior shipments.

 

Week 6 - 2 bricks arrive and BBJ snakes them both. You and I are both totally out from our 1st bricks. Want to buy some for $50 yet? Sorry...you can't.....this week our buddy BBJ wants $75 a brick.

 

Week X - Week Y repeat ad nauseum.

 

So when I finally break down and buy one brick from the asshole, does that mean that $75 is the equilibrium price? Keep in mind that the actual supply to the market from the manufacturer has not changed. Wally's still gets its customary weekly shipment just as it always has.

 

What about when our neighbor, Mr. Newb, gets a new .22 rifle and needs some ammo for it? This would normally be an honest increase in the demand side. But Mr. Newb heard on the news that maybe the UN, or Obama, or the EPA or Ronald McDonald is going to ban .22 so he goes to get some from Wally's. Finding none for weeks on end, he panics and buys from BBJ. Does that make $75 the new market equilibrium price?

 

Supply and Demand economics is based on the principle of free flow of product and cash between the maker of a product and a consumer of a product. Prices are bumped up somewhat by a value-added supply chain. Winchester wants to sell 1,000,000 rounds at a time and will sell them for $.03 each and you have to pick them up at their factory. You and I only want to buy 1,000 at a time and can't/won't drive to their factory. Wally's buys the million rounds and resells them in smaller lots closer to us. They add value by doing this for us and we reward them with an extra $.01 per round.

 

What BBJ is doing is not adding any value. The lot size, location, and product are exactly the same as how Wally's delivered them. Winchester still got their $.03 per round and Wally's made their $.01 per round. BBJ is manipulating the supply by monopolizing it as best he can. He's also manipulating the demand by starving the market of its usual supply to increase the feeling of panic amongst the consumers. That is NOT free-market enterprise. It's price-fixing market-manipulation at its worst.

Edited September 12, 2013 by monkeylizard

[itchytriggerfinger]

.... Winchester wants to sell 1,000,000 rounds at a time and will sell them for $.03 each and you have to pick them up at their factory.....
 

 

I bet we could get a group from TGO to put together a $30,000 order from Winchester :x:

[221 Fireball]

It's funny how we reason about the situation. Most of us can't find ammo to buy (at a normal price) yet we have ammo sitting at home, yet we won't shoot it because we don't know when we can get any more.

 

Unfortunately the real victims of this whole ammo shortage/gouging mess are the shooting sports in general. Ask any club or range, and they'll tell you activity/participation is at an all time low.

 

What we really all should be doing is continue shooting at our normal pace, slowly depleting our 'stash'. At the same time we're doing that and enjoying our shooting sessions again... do not buy replacement ammo until it sits in stacks on Walmart shelves again. No demand, the gougers will quit.

 

No doubt, I'm the odd duck on this and that's ok, but I have not slowed my pace to shoot. Yes I reload, and yes I have a reasonable supply of ammo and components. No, I have no bought a box of rimfire ammo since it got crazy and no I don't have 10-20 thousand rounds of .22 either. I do have about six bricks and shoot it whenever I feel like it. It takes a lot longer to shoot it up than you think. But every day the sun comes up, I'm going to enjoy life and if that includes going to the range to burn some rounds, I'm going to do it. I think many of us get into this hoarding thing without really being sensible about it. Does anyone really think ammo is going away? Do you really need a gazillion rounds for the end of the world? I don't, and life is happier with that attitude.

 

When I shoot my last round, then I may stand in line for some more...but not until! I shot at the range yesterday and I'm going again this Saturday. I suggest you all do the same and let the gougers choke on what's stacked in their house...which is something I wouldn't want in the first place. Too much ammo, is prone to bad things like theft and house fires...both of which your insurance company will not cover adequately. Check your contents policy if you don't believe me.

 

This HAS been an interesting thread! :popcorn:   Good day!

[Grunt67]

CZ, there is a diference in "fair market price" and "market price". Scalpers do not represent "fair market price".

[turkeydad]

Thanks for  the replys to my question. . .and the general jist that I got is where my thoughts and heart was at on the subject as well. . Makes me better cause I didnt take lightly making even a little money selling some of that old ammo. .  .even if I didnt take it off the current shelves and why I would not sell for more tht the best bprice I could find.  .but heck Ive got a family I cant give it away either. . although I did give away some .22 that I had laying around to a guy my wife works with . . its been years since Ive had a .22. .

 

I didnt see that post with Benton B actually defending buying at current retail and jacking up the price. . . I would just prefer him to say Im sorry you feel that way but Im gonna get mine rather than try to convince everyone that something that is wrong is right. .   I agree with David it is no different than  somebody buying all the generators and other needed gear out during the Nashville flood and selling for double or triple on Craigslist.  .same concept just different subject matter.

 

God forbid their ever be a crises involving baby formula. . somebody just might get killed. . .

Edited September 12, 2013 by turkeydad

[BryanP]

Ask me how many times I've gone shooting in the past 10 months.  It's embarrassing!  I haven't shot a single round because I don't want to burn up ammo I can't easily replace.   :(

 

Tell me about it.  I've been exactly once during this calendar year.  I've got a decent stash of ammo but I'm afraid to use it.  *sigh*

[Fourtyfive]

Thank god I don't buy or need any .22 I guess , I don't shoot it. Except .22 WMR. Edited September 13, 2013 by Threeeighty