Wonder why there are no jobs......

[DaveTN]

I know. The only ones keeping distilleries in the black are us raging alcoholics who will pay just about any price. Lucky for them that as the economy goes down alcohol consumption goes up.

I know. As we were having our discussion on DUI last night I was sipping on Jack Daniels. I almost felt like a hypocrite until I realized I wasn’t driving.

[TMF]

I know. As we were having our discussion on DUI last night I was sipping on Jack Daniels. I almost felt like a hypocrite until I realized I wasn’t driving.

Have one for me, I'm in a dry county right now.

[JayC]

And those plants are almost 100% automated.

 

I was thrilled last month when I heard on the news that Microsoft and Apple were moving back to the states and closing down almost all of shore plants. I always say someone has to make that first step. They did and I hope others follow soon..........JMHO

 

[mikegideon]

Have one for me, I'm in a dry county right now.

 

There's no such thing. You're in an unfamiliar county :)

[TMF]

[quote name="JayC" post="1025632" timestamp="1378137222"] And where do you think the government is getting all that money for "unsustainable subsidizing"? I'll give you a hint, they're stealing it from successful businesses and individuals who are having to compete on an international stage :) [/quote] Your point requires a bit of thought. It is way easier to demonize businesses that move offshore and the consumers who buy their products than to identify the root problem which is our own government. You can't fit your logic on a bumper sticker, but you can fit "Buy American" on one. Drive by activism at its finest. And who benefits at all this squabbling.... Or rather, who is the villain who avoids the finger being pointed at them? How masterful that our government f**ks everything up yet gets us to point the finger at one another? Our ruling class is right; we really are that stupid. Edited September 2, 2013 by TMF

[TMF]

There's no such thing. You're in an unfamiliar county :)

Nope, just not willing to pay the excise tax.

[Randall53]

There's no such thing. You're in an unfamiliar county :)

 

LOL......yep.

[JayC]

I think the problem is larger than that...  it creates this evil cycle...  large businesses (and I mean really large businesses) encourage the government to place regulations on their industries to create a barrier to entry and help them protect their market share...  

 

These regulations often have the added benefit of protecting the large business from lawsuit or liability by complying with these regulations.

 

It's a racket and we're all blind to it...  This happens at all levels of government...  I've seen it at the city and county level just as bad if not worse than at the state and federal level...  it leads to corruption and making it harder for a small business to get a foothold and build wealth in this country.

 

Your point requires a bit of thought. It is way easier to demonize businesses that move offshore and the consumers who buy their products than to identify the root problem which is our own government. You can't fit your logic on a bumper sticker, but you can fit "Buy American" on one. Drive by activism at its finest. And who benefits at all this squabbling.... Or rather, who is the villain who avoids the finger being pointed at them? How masterful that our government f**ks everything up yet gets us to point the finger at one another? Our ruling class is right; we really are that stupid.

[TMF]

I think the problem is larger than that... it creates this evil cycle... large businesses (and I mean really large businesses) encourage the government to place regulations on their industries to create a barrier to entry and help them protect their market share...

These regulations often have the added benefit of protecting the large business from lawsuit or liability by complying with these regulations.

It's a racket and we're all blind to it... This happens at all levels of government... I've seen it at the city and county level just as bad if not worse than at the state and federal level... it leads to corruption and making it harder for a small business to get a foothold and build wealth in this country.

Absolutely. I live in Clarksville, so I've seen this first hand. I've heard stories about government corruption and cronyism in regard to business, but to see it so clearly how it plays out here is sick. It certainly is more complicated than what can be summed up in a couple of sentences, but it all stems from too large of government and not enough oversight.... oh, and really stupid voters.

[Spiffy]

Nope I don't wonder at all. I try like hell to only by US made. Looking for days for certain items. Almost always fail with clothing. I looked for a long time for Chef clothes and could only find one and they were 5 times more. I just can't pay $200 for something I can get just as good for $20. I still try though.

 

And right there is the point. The cost of living in the USA. Like the fast food workers who are striking say you really can't pay rent, eat and have a car and buy gas on $7.50 an hour. And it has nothing to do with greed. We are all subjected constantly to the "American Dream" and "Keeping up with the Jones's". There are no more good job and unless you were in the top 5% of your good college class don't even worry about getting a job like you thought you'd get when you picked that Major. We are a longggg way from what everyone's ideal is........hell even the Free Stuff Army is complaining because Obama isn't paying their rent or buying their gas like they thought he would.

[Guest The Itis]

 

 

BTW I wonder how many people reading this post is reading it using a made in the USA computer screen, made in USA hand held device, etc.   If you do have one, please share with me the name.

All I can imagine being USA made is the Intel processor, but even then it probably gets shipped overseas to be assembled and then shipped back.

 

It's incredible to imagine that despite the attention to how much fuel costs are these days, that the cost of labor difference is so drastic that it is still cheaper to ship products overseas and back and still come out on top in costs instead of paying an American worker.

Edited September 2, 2013 by The Itis

[Guest The Itis]

Didn't you know everything is going to made and run by robots. No need for human labor at all. All us humans can just sit back and drink Margaritas made by robots.

 

This point right here highlights what I believe to be one of the biggest economic problems of our era.

 

Most people are aware that using machines is a huge savings in costs of production.

People think, "Awesome, people don't have to work such tedious jobs anymore! Hooray science and technology!"

 

But somehow there is this assumption that the money the company saves by replacing workers would still go to the workers somehow. It's as if people imagine a robot taking their spot but they would still get their paycheck.

 

Technology that displaces human labor does just that- displaces human labor, takes money that would've gone to the working class and puts it into the company's higher-ups.

 

Replacing human labor with technology sadly does not mean people can live more leisurely lifestyles as hoped, it has mostly lead to people pining for their old jobs back because they are the types who are too stubborn to retrain.

 

It would've been great if the working class could've largely enjoyed the benefits of labor being done by robots, but just think- how is the argument any different if you replaced the word "robots" with "foreign labor"?

"Didn't you know everything is going to made and run by foreign labor (robots). No need for American (human) labor at all. All us Americans humans can just sit back and drink Margaritas made by foreign labor (robots).

Edited September 2, 2013 by The Itis

[Guest Lester Weevils]

But somehow there is this assumption that the money the company saves by replacing workers would still go to the workers somehow. It's as if people imagine a robot taking their spot but they would still get their paycheck.
...
Replacing human labor with technology sadly does not mean people can live more leisurely lifestyles as hoped, it has mostly lead to people pining for their old jobs back because they are the types who are too stubborn to retrain.

It would've been great if the working class could've largely enjoyed the benefits of labor being done by robots, but just think- how is the argument any different if you replaced the word "robots" with "foreign labor"?

In the 1950's one of Kurt Vonnegut's first novels (and one of his few "genuine SF" books) PLAYER PIANO explored this theme. Automated factories with less than 1 percent of managers and engineers lucky to have a "real job" overseeing the factories. The rest of the population unhappy and indolent on welfare. Not from laziness, but simply from lack of jobs for humans.

Then there was an SF short story a decade or two back which had an interesting solution-- Robots had got cheap and adaptable, and so each "displaced worker" would finance and buy his own robot, and hire out the robot to do the job the worker used to do, and then the worker would live on the revenue generated by his own robot.

[DMark]

In 1993, the Bill Clinton White House sold the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) as a way to aid Mexican and American workers.  The Senate, controlled by Democrats, approved the treaty on its first reading. 

 

Ross Perot predicted that because the deal included no basic labor standards, it would cause a huge "wage differential between the United States and Mexico" that would result in "the giant sucking sound" of American jobs heading south of the border.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkgx1C_S6ls

 

The International Ladies' Garment Workers' Union was once one of the largest unions in the US with a membership over 450,000 at its peak.

 

Today it is gone.

[JayC]

That fiction is about the become reality :)  There are a ton of middle income blue and white collar jobs that will be gone in the next 25 years, completely replaced by robots and computers...  

 

I wouldn't want to be 21 and a truck driver, or under 30 and an airplane pilot right now....  Those 2 jobs are about to get insourced to computers/robots.

 

In the 1950's one of Kurt Vonnegut's first novels (and one of his few "genuine SF" books) PLAYER PIANO explored this theme. Automated factories with less than 1 percent of managers and engineers lucky to have a "real job" overseeing the factories. The rest of the population unhappy and indolent on welfare. Not from laziness, but simply from lack of jobs for humans.

Then there was an SF short story a decade or two back which had an interesting solution-- Robots had got cheap and adaptable, and so each "displaced worker" would finance and buy his own robot, and hire out the robot to do the job the worker used to do, and then the worker would live on the revenue generated by his own robot.

 

[Guest The Itis]

We've already seen this trend with IT and such, but looks like the jobs that need to be worked by humans are the ones involved in robot maintenance.

 

That is, until we make self-repairing robots :squint:

[DMark]

That is, until we make self-repairing robots :squint:

 

AND They become Self-Aware.

 

[TMF]

All I can imagine being USA made is the Intel processor, but even then it probably gets shipped overseas to be assembled and then shipped back.

It's incredible to imagine that despite the attention to how much fuel costs are these days, that the cost of labor difference is so drastic that it is still cheaper to ship products overseas and back and still come out on top in costs instead of paying an American worker.

Labor is not the cost driving domestic prices. Haven't you read any of the responses to your assertions?

[Guest The Itis]

Read them, and still, labor is the cost driving domestic prices.

You may point to a derivative of this and claim to see the problem, but those things like insurance, unemployment, OSHA, workers comp, etc. are all associated costs of the labor.

American workers are spoiled. It's like they worked jobs with hazard pay, then the hazard is removed, but they still feel entitled to the same pay despite a safer work environment. You can't find anyone willing to take pay cuts? Then just pay them the same at first and then take some. Same difference, except none-the-wiser workers don't feel as bitter.
It's like if you worked a job and made $40/hr that had a 10% chance of serious bodily injury or death, would you not be willing to instead make $35/hr with 0% chance of serious bodily injury or death?

We agree that foreign workers don't have these luxuries, but you will not find any American workers willing to do without them. Easy to demonize the big bad government for having a higher standard than third world sweatshops, but your attitude is akin to building cars without seatbelts and airbags just so they can be sold cheaper.

Yes there are a lot of costs associated with American labor, and even you seem to be trying to point to it, but you're just unwilling to call it cost of labor. Why, because you're one of those none-the-wiser people who think there's actually a difference between paying workers less versus paying workers more but taking more out of their checks? Labor is the cost driving domestic prices.

[TMF]

That isn't the cost of labor, that is the cost of government intervention!

[Guest 6.8 AR]

And right there is the point. The cost of living in the USA. Like the fast food workers who are striking say you really can't pay rent, eat and have a car and buy gas on $7.50 an hour. And it has nothing to do with greed. We are all subjected constantly to the "American Dream" and "Keeping up with the Jones's". There are no more good job and unless you were in the top 5% of your good college class don't even worry about getting a job like you thought you'd get when you picked that Major. We are a longggg way from what everyone's ideal is........hell even the Free Stuff Army is complaining because Obama isn't paying their rent or buying their gas like they thought he would.

I'm hoping you aren't willing to defend the strikers and the minimum wage being too low. It was never intended that the minimum

wage be anything but that, a minimum. It is an entry level wage for a first time job. If one doesn't wish to improve his standard

of living and subside on it, it is his problem. There really should be no minimum wage, to begin with. It artificially creates pay

standards for jobs that cause, in some, increased costs where there is no reason. It is a government intervention that is used

to make people think they are somewhere and is only increasing cost. Value in the job is what should set wages.

 

The American dream is alive and well. All you have to do is put your brain in gear and create something that many people want.

Don't confuse striking minimum wage employees with creativity and innovation. It may not be as apparent to some, but it does

still exist. Ideals should come from your own mind and you should strive for it instead of letting a minimum wage job be your

final destiny in life.

[ted]

That isn't the cost of labor, that is the cost of government intervention!

watch what Ted Cruz has to say http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vbjquai_oqE&t=1s&feature=youtu.be&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dvbjquai_oqE%26feature%3Dyoutu.be%26t%3D1s Edited September 3, 2013 by ted

[crossfire]

Despite your insistence on ridicule, I'm going to be nice and just say I didn't say whatever it was you thought you read.

 

I'll try to say it very simple language so you can maybe understand.

American businesses cannot compete globally without help from the US government.

Many industries are merely getting by with the help of unsustainable subsidizing. This is not news.

 

I mean, I sense that you are not happy with the current administration, and even though I'm agreeing that they are not using sustainable practices, you somehow think it's a joke?

Yes the government is not doing well, but who called for their help? The very same American businesses that couldn't make it without the government padding their earnings. That was a point you seem to have glossed over.

 

American businesses can charge less for their products to be globally competitive only if they make up the price difference in the money they get from the government. That is the problem.

 

Go on and talk about being an American while extrapolating a "let Detroit fail" attitude to "let America fail"

:koolaid:

[mikegideon]

:koolaid:

 

Yep

[crossfire]

That isn't the cost of labor, that is the cost of government intervention!

Tmf, don't you know you can't disagree with the all knowing Itis! If you do your just "ridiculing" him and he has to use  "very simple language" because your just to dumb to see that he is always right! He just can't figure out the fact, that government regulations and greedy unions killed the "American Dream". Of course the fact that I worked in manufacturing for over 30 years, and I saw first hand what NAFTA, OSHA, UAW, & AFL-CIO did to drive the American jobs off shore will carry no credibility compared to the BS he is being feed from our leaders in Washington.

So lets just have another round of :koolaid: