Almost time to slang some arrows

[ShaunM]

I dont care what a person shoots. If a spike makes you happy than by all means shoot it, same goes for a 10 pointer. If a person wants to manage a herd than go right ahead. I know I will shoot anything I want. I killed a small 7 pointer last year and a guy told me i should have let it walk. I asked him why and he said I should only shoot big bucks. I laughed and went on my merry way. I say do whatever makes you happy not what other people think or do.

[DaveS]

We both agree that herd management is a good thing.  I do respectfully disagree with a few things you mentioned because it boils down to how you and I view proper herd management which could probably be argued ad nauseum.

 

"A good herd management program includes the harvesting of certain bucks".  ~ Agree Partially.  If you are monitoring the health and growth of your young deer (spikes) then I can see it as acceptable to harvest a few spikes to record data for your records so you can compare to the year(s) before.  You would record things such as weight of the deer, the stomach contents, the jawbone,  and antler measurement.  So unless you are recording that data and using it for herd management purposes, I see no other reason to harvest spikes.  Certain bucks to harvest for me are bucks 3.5-4.5+ years old when their antler and genetic capabilities are near 80%-90% and higher.  

 

"You cant harvest does and be happy, you wont be doing your herd any justice". ~Agree Partially.  Bucks are what people want hanging on their wall, not does.  Nothing is more exciting than a bruiser in front of you.  But how do you get that old and wise maybe even nocturnal bruiser in front of you instead of just on a trail cam?  The best way is to make him walk.  If he has easy access to a doe, he will stick close to his bedding area where he is nice and protected, but if he does not have easy access to a doe, he will have to travel further to find one.  By balancing the buck to doe ratio there will be a massive increase in competition from your bucks.  This makes the rut VERY intense.  

 

Have you ever heard of the "2nd rut"?  Do you know why there is a "2nd rut"?  Its because you have too many does vs bucks.  These are does that are left to be breed by a buck so they go into heat again. Fawns that are conceived during the "2nd rut" are born later in the year the next year.  By the time these fawns are born, there is less quality food available to new mom and fawns because of all the births from the main rut.  This makes the fawns and moms unhealthy and fawn recruitment rates are much lower.  Not only will they die from lack of nutrition, but an unhealthy mom likely wont give birth to more than 1 fawn. Bucks born from the 2nd rut often stay young looking up until they are 1.5 years old and can easily be mistaken for "bad genetics" or that "cowhorn spike".  Most likely that cowhorn spike is a buck that was born late in the year and never had the nutrition to turn those horns into 4 or 6 points.

 

So what does a balanced buck:doe ratio look like?  The rut is freaking intense, your does will be bread during the main rut.  There will be not 2nd rut. This also means that you have enough quality food available for the new moms and new fawns throughout the gestation period and after birth.  Healthier does give birth to multiple fawns therefor increasing the amount of deer you have on your property.  The bucks born from these moms express greater antler grown due to the available nutrition. 

Your bucks will become more visible and make for better hunts.  So its delayed gratification but harvesting does does lead to happiness.  

 

So to affectively manage your heard for the best quality bucks, the most visible bucks, and the healthy does that give birth to multiple fawns you harvest does to balance this, not bucks.  

 

"For every doe you kill during the rut, you are potentially killing up to four deer".  ~ This is not completely true if you have too many deer for the carrying capacity of your land.  Malnourished  doe tend to have only 1 fawn.  By reducing the doe on your property, this actually increases the deer on your property which you then monitor and harvest appropriately the next year.  Its a cycle.  But the point is, all the deer being born are healthy and the bucks have the nourishment to express their full genetic potential...if you let them mature first. 

 

"How about leaving the "big boys" to spread their genes".  Well, it is true that the dominate bucks get to breed the doe, but you can't control the age of bucks that breed your does.  The age of the father doesn't have anything to do with how much genetic potential a young buck may have.  Genetic potential is genetic potential, a young buck that has the genetic potential to be a 200" deer will likely result in a bigger son than an already mature buck with a genetic potential of 140"

 

"I thinned two "scrubs" with jacked up racks off my property last year". ~ By shooting "scrubs" you are assuming 2 things.  The first is that the deer has bad genetics.  The second is that be eliminating this deer, you are helping to control bad genes from being entered into your heard.  (remember what I said above to about how that cowhorn spike likely is a late born buck and still has the genetic potential to not only grow big with proper nutrition but to produce strong offspring).  Be careful with this.  Many people have this old school methodology that you can manage deer genetics enough to make an impact on your herd.  That is simply not true!

 

First, most antler abnormalities are due to injury...NOT genetics.  Ever see that buck with one messed up antler but the other looks normal?  Thats injury, not bad genes.  So if you kill this buck, you are eliminating him breeding with your does and spreading on his genetic potential. 

 

Second, you can't control genetics because of several different reasons.

1) Genetics are invisible
2) Deer move too much.  Yearing bucks travel up to 40 miles away from their birthplace.  During the rut, these deer travel even further.

3) Does carry genes too

4) You dont have the time

5) Genetic manipulation wont last anyways. 

(you can read more about this http://www.qdma.com/articles/why-we-cant-manage-deer-genetics )

I do agree with a lot of what you say. I kill spikes when they appear to be older deer, not the very young ones. I should have made that clear. Since I too am a "meat hunter" and don't care nothing about hanging any more heads on my wall, any and all deer suit me just fine. Just to let you know, that doe in the above picture was taken after two twin 4 pointers were passed up on.

 

Not to bust anyone's bubble, but deer hunting is about more than "rack size". Big rack 4 and 5 year old mature bucks are great to kill. Most people however kill them just for that reason. Then they throw them in the beds of their trucks and drive all over town to show their buddies. By the time they make it the Taxidermist it's in bad shape and even fewer make it to the freezer. To each his own.

 

I however, ignore rack size, and judge my deer based on Tender Loins, Hams, Chops and Burger. I will not shoot a button buck or doe that appears to be under 60 pounds. I do however applaud those that do, because there are way too many of them. And yes, I did at one time "Trophy Hunt". Been there, done that", and have nice things to show for it. It's about the meat now.

 

Each person that purchases a hunting license has to make no one else happy but themselves. As long as they abide by the law, let them kill what they want. You nor I can change it. Take public land for example; let a little 6 pointer walk away and he'll be dead within 300 yards! May as well go on and get him yourself. Private land? I don't have that problem. My problem is people sneaking in killing my mature bucks.

 

I have no issues with hunters taking young deer if that makes them happy and it feeds them. We talked to a guy the other day that was plumb tickled to death because he killed his first deer. The little buck had spikes about an inch long and weighed about 60 pounds. To him, it might as well have been a 10 pointer! First thing he said? "Man is that going to taste good"!

 

With the economy as bad as it is, more and more people out of work, we all can expect fewer bucks making it to adulthood. It's just a fact we have to live with.

 

Happy Hunting!

 

DaveS

Edited October 10, 2013 by DaveS

[rugerla1]

 

I have no issues with hunters taking young deer if that makes them happy and it feeds them. We talked to a guy the other day that was plumb tickled to death because he killed his first deer. The little buck had spikes about an inch long and weighed about 60 pounds. To him, it might as well have been a 10 pointer! First thing he said? "Man is that going to taste good"!

 

 

^^That is awesome, a hunter's first deer is a forever forged memory! I actually get excited for my friends when they kill a deer, not just my own harvest. Some people think we walk out in the woods at 9:30 while eating a sausage biscuit and playing Candy Crush, and the deer just walk out in a field and pose for us, and we use those big ole evil rifles and blow those poor little things away. They have no idea the time involved, the days not seeing anything (hot and cold days just sitting), or the respect and love we have for the animals. I know there are some idiots out there that make us all look bad, but for the most part, hunters/outdoorsmen are a nature loving group. 

A lot of good info in the above posts guys.

[DaveS]

^^That is awesome, a hunter's first deer is a forever forged memory! I actually get excited for my friends when they kill a deer, not just my own harvest. Some people think we walk out in the woods at 9:30 while eating a sausage biscuit and playing Candy Crush, and the deer just walk out in a field and pose for us, and we use those big ole evil rifles and blow those poor little things away. They have no idea the time involved, the days not seeing anything (hot and cold days just sitting), or the respect and love we have for the animals. I know there are some idiots out there that make us all look bad, but for the most part, hunters/outdoorsmen are a nature loving group. 

A lot of good info in the above posts guys.

I always get excited when my guests kill a deer while I'm guiding them or get their 1st deer. Take a Federal Game Warden friend of mine. Jason has killed many, many deer. Trophy bucks in Whitetail and Mule deer. Hundreds of does. He had never taken a deer with Muzzle Loader. I told him I would put him in my stand and he would at least see Does. If he wanted a "big boy" I'd put him down in the "bottoms". Long story short, he shot a doe with his ML. He was tickled to death that he'd finally gotten a deer with it! He got all choked up on me! That's my kind of hunting! I'll try to post a pic of it later on.

 

The above story of the guy getting his first deer, he's an older gentleman and this was his third year deer hunting. I LOVE IT!!!

 

DaveS

[whiskey]

I am at the point I don't want to shoot any deer. All that time spent sitting in the woods, dragging the deer, gutting, processing, cooking. I am too lazy for all that. It is way easier to go to Publix. But, I keep hunting. I don't want to let you guys down. I'm gonna drag my butt out there tomorrow just so you guys are happy. I'll even shoot a big fat old buck if he walks by, just to satisfy you guys. You see what a big heart I have?

I don't like to shoot young bucks. I'll shoot any old deer. Good horns or not. I feel the challenge is in hunting the seasoned deer. However, I a not all high and mighty. I'll pop a doe in a heart beat if the situation lends itself to an easy extraction. I ain't gonna shoot a doe a mile from the truck on purpose. Y'all will just have to deal with it. :)

[rugerla1]

I am at the point I don't want to shoot any deer. All that time spent sitting in the woods, dragging the deer, gutting, processing, cooking. I am too lazy for all that. It is way easier to go to Publix. But, I keep hunting. I don't want to let you guys down. I'm gonna drag my butt out there tomorrow just so you guys are happy. I'll even shoot a big fat old buck if he walks by, just to satisfy you guys. You see what a big heart I have?

I don't like to shoot young bucks. I'll shoot any old deer. Good horns or not. I feel the challenge is in hunting the seasoned deer. However, I a not all high and mighty. I'll pop a doe in a heart beat if the situation lends itself to an easy extraction. I ain't gonna shoot a doe a mile from the truck on purpose. Y'all will just have to deal with it. :)

I know there's a lot of truth here, but you added a lot of humor in there with it  :rofl:

I'm glad you are doing it out of the goodness of your heart for the rest of us that have to wait till Saturday to go out ha ha ha Oh, and good luck by the way! 

[DaveS]

I know there's a lot of truth here, but you added a lot of humor in there with it  :rofl:

I'm glad you are doing it out of the goodness of your heart for the rest of us that have to wait till Saturday to go out ha ha ha Oh, and good luck by the way! 

I was out this evening. Trout fishing tomorrow and deer hunting the weekend. Good luck to you all. The old crusty stanky bucks are safe. Young deer are much easier to load on my 4 wheeler!

 

Happy Hunting!

 

DaveS

[rugerla1]

 The old crusty stanky bucks are safe. Young deer are much easier to load on my 4 wheeler!

 

That reminds me ^^ 3 years ago, I was 3 weeks out from my last chemo treatment. Hauling my butt up in the ladder stand took every ounce of energy I had, but I WAS going to be in the woods. It was a chore even holding my rifle up and steady but I did it. One evening around 5:00 I killed an 8 pointer. I waited that "eternity" we all know, even though I watched him crash 20 yards from my stand. I was chemo weak and buck fever weak all at the same time, so I made sure to calm down and climb down slowly. Seriously, looking back, I should have known better since I'd went from 240 down to 180. I had no business trying to pull a deer up through the woods to the truck. That being said, I tried it.......for about 10 yards.....then collapsed and laid there looking up. I honestly thought to myself "You dumba$$, you're going to lay here and die over this deer". Yes I was breathing hard, short breaths and heart racing, and really glad now that I didn't push any farther. I laid there for an unknown amount of time, had absolutely nobody to call to help me. So I finally caught my wind and walked s-l-o-w-l-y back to the truck, drove all the way to Smyrna from Lebanon, hooked up my trailer, loaded my 4 wheeler, and made the drive back. I thought, crap, I still have to put it on the back of the 4 wheeler!!!! I did it (balance was topsy turvy during this ordeal lol) and drove to my buddy's house once everything was loaded back up on the trailer. He'd just got off work, and what a relief it was to see him. I was flat wore out, purely exhausted. He actually unloaded it for me and field dressed it while I laid on the trailer and tried to revive what energy I could. So thankful for him to help, because there was no way I could have done it. 

Now, I'm back strong, and can load any deer up anywhere, and thankful to God for getting me healthy to hunt every single day that I am allowed to. It's a big deal for a man to finish the deal when he takes game, so even though I couldn't do it then, I still think about that evening that I wondered "Is this the last time I'm going to get to hunt", since I didn't know the results from the chemo. Don't take any one minute in the woods for granted, after God, my family, and friends I consider family, the outdoors is something that got me through.

[Mdunntn]

Lord I'm ready for Saturday morning! Finally found a bow mount that would fit my stand and a pair if stabilizer straps. Hopefully tomorrow is the day I can get my first archery kill on video.

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[EastHipster]

I got out this morning.

BUSTED 10 yards from my first stand!

 

I started hiking in at dark and first light was peaking out as I was sneaking up the trail and SNORT!!

Oh well.

 

Deer were really still today but it wasn't  waste.

I found a new trail and a feeding area loaded with fresh Deer Droppings and nice ambush opportunities.

Will be sitting there sometime in the next few days.

[Slappy]

DaveS, thanks for chiming back in.  Your herd management has been doing a good job obviously if you have those bruisers walking around!  And I and I am more than ok with shooting mature deer regardless of rack size.  My view on it isn't all about rack size but producing healthy and quality deer.  Rack size to me is just a by product of a healthy deer and it being able to reach full genetic potential.  

 

I mentored 2 new hunters last year, one shot a nice doe and the other shot a 1.5y/o spike with 7" long antlers.  I was as happy as he was! Like you said, I believe you should not limit a new hunter as long the deer is legal.  

 

I hear you on poachers!  They are terrible.  Last year we found a 5 gallon bucket upside down up against a tree overlooking a hollow in hardwoods.  The leaves had been completely cleared out around his feet exposing the dirt.  He also had Bud Light cans and L&M cigarette butts next to the bucket he had been sitting on.  We know who it is too.  So will have to keep an eye out for it this year as not only is it illegal and he doesnt have permission, but he wont hesitate to do his best to negatively impact our management program!

[Slappy]

Tomorrow is going to go by so slowly!!  Sound like thats the case for everyone recently posting here that are also hunting Saturday!  I am hunting sun up till deer down Saturday with a new bowhunting friend.  

[Wiljo05]

I'll be sneaking out for a few in the morn to try to stick one. Clear night won't help though, I bet they are cruising around the woods right now!

[rugerla1]

I'll be sneaking out for a few in the morn to try to stick one. Clear night won't help though, I bet they are cruising around the woods right now!

I was thinking about going out for a couple of hours in the morning too. But I also thought about what you said when I looked up at the sky when I left work. Who knows though, I may give it a shot anyway.

[Slappy]

You guys wont see any movement at all if you don't get out in the woods!  haha

 

 

Edit:  Not an article here but a video from a research study done on how move phases affect deer.

 http://www.qdma.com/videos/does-the-moon-affect-deer-movement

Edited October 11, 2013 by Slappy

[Wiljo05]

I'm firmly convinced that the mornings I don't hunt that deer are out playing, fornicating, and having all sorts of fun under my stands. The only way to prove myself wrong is to go hunt :-)

[rugerla1]

You guys wont see any movement at all if you don't get out in the woods!  haha
 
 
Edit:  Not an article here but a video from a research study done on how move phases affect deer.
 http://www.qdma.com/videos/does-the-moon-affect-deer-movement

Good video, thanks for posting. And you're right, definitely won't see anything if you're not in the woods haha

[Mdunntn]

So excited to try out my new little camera!

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[rugerla1]

Hopefully you will be posting up good footage of your kill in the morning! I'm headed out too, but with no camera mounted LOL. Good luck!

[Mdunntn]

No luck this morning in sweetwater. Had six turkeys come in but they wouldn't give me a shot. Saw a doe walking out was hoping to get a shot on it but by the time I got around the corner it had cut down the ridge.

Not a whole lot of activity, it was oddly warm compared to earlier this week.

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[rugerla1]

I stayed out till eleven, didn't see anything. Went home for a couple if hours and back out here again for the evening. Hope they'll be moving.

[EastHipster]

Thursday morning I got BUSTED 10 yards from my first stand at 6:00am!

 

I hunted a Feeding area Friday Evening and it was QUIET out.

Nothing.  This was in Whites Creek.

 

It was a nice stand though.  Had a little depression to sit in with a good 10-20 Yard Shot area.

Tons of Acorns, lots of fresh Deer droppings and a perfect Trail Funnel.

 

Might try it in the morning?

I'm definitely hunting tomorrow but haven't decided what the strategy will be.

I'm on the Trails of 2 different good sized Bucks but might not push for them until we get closer to the Rut.

[Slappy]

I went hunting today.  Was in the stand at 6am in pitch black dark.  Left that stand at 10:15 and relocated to another stand where I stayed until it rained cats and dogs on me around 2:30.  I did not see a single freaking deer!  After my hunt I was thinking about this because deer are ALL OVER the property I hunt and I figured out what it was....the acorns started falling.  It doesnt matter what you plant, deer will always prefer acorns.  I was hunting over cowpeas and a wheat/clover field at a pinch point. So the moral of the story is for the next while until your acorns are eaten up, hunt in the woods.  haha

 

I did have one bit of fun today.  The buddy I was hunting with, while we were transitioning between the two stands, threw an empty Gatorade bottle out as far as he could around 10 yards or so as a practice target.  I took out my blunt tip arrow guessed the yardage and popped that gatorade bottle and it flew another 10 yards or so.  Then my buddy pulled out his blunt tip and he popped it and it went another 10 yards or so.  Then I pulled out another blunt tip and stuck my 30 yard pin and let one fly and nailed it!  These blunt tips are so much fun!!  I highly recommend you get a set of those. 

 

http://www.basspro.com/Saunders-Bludgeon-Small-Game-Head/product/23951/

Edited October 12, 2013 by Slappy

[Sniper23]

I hunted over acorns yesterday evening and only saw one fawn. It appears that the place I hunt is having a huge bumper crop of acorns. I've got them all including white oak, red oak, and chinkapin. Believe it or not, but most of my trail camera photos captured are from a trail leading to a hedge apple tree. It's got me puzzled this year because I could always count on them being at the acorns.

[EastHipster]

My 'problem' is that there are TONS of Acorns...