Loading Accident

[DaveTN]

Re read my post. "I" don't know what happened...the "SD" suggested static electricity. As of this moment, I still don't know what happened! I will soon find out though.

 

Dave

What else do you think it could be? Unless you had some other source of ignition around you it seems pretty obvious.

[DaveS]

One of the electrical experts can jump in here, but I think you also need to be grounded to discharge any static electricity.

My son says they have the mats at work that they stand on, that is supposed to ground you also. I'm going to research that.

 

Dave

Crack'a American

Edited August 25, 2013 by DaveS

[DaveS]

What else do you think it could be? Unless you had some other source of ignition around you it seems pretty obvious.

I know Dave, I was just responding to a post. I'm no scientist, but static would be my guess too. As I said, I was answering a post that seemed like the guy was wanting to call me out. I probably read more into his post than I should have. All is good!

 

Dave

Crack'a American

[R_Bert]

Here are a few starting points. It is very much the same as for protecting ESD sensitive electronic parts (example - CMOS chips). Grounding, and type of protective device is important to effectiveness.

 

While some facilities go to heavy measures to install a grounding system, typical home-use anti-static equipment is grounded through the power system ground ("plugged in").  I will note this....when using a wrist strap. be sure to get one with a mega-Ohm resistor built in (for your personal protection - limits current through your body as opposed to bare wire).

 

Antistatic devices reduce static electricity, which can damage electrical components such as computer hard drives, and even ignite flammable liquids and gases. Types of antistatic devices include:

• Antistatic bag, used to contain devices, such as graphics cards or hard disk drives, typically during shipping.
• Antistatic garments, used in many industries such as electronics, communications, telecommunications and defense applications.
• Antistatic agent, compound used for treatment of materials or their surfaces in order to reduce or eliminate buildup of static electricity
• Antistatic mat, ranging from small mats for keyboards and mice and larger for people to stand on.
• Antistatic strap, consisting of a metal component which presses against the skin when worn on the wrist or heel, in turn relayed to an electrical ground.

Most of these items can be found at places like Grainger or Amazon http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aesd%20strap#/ref=sr_pg_2?rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aesd+strap&page=2&keywords=esd+strap&ie=UTF8&qid=1377437747

[tnhawk]

Sorry to hear about your accident.  Hopefully it will heal without any problems. All of my 30+ years of reloading has been in TX or TN, and one wouldn't think ESD would be an issue with the humidity. I'll be changing my safety procedures for reloading in the future. Edited August 25, 2013 by tnhawk

[Wingshooter]

I guess if nothing else, work barefoot and touch something else first as you enter the reloading room. I'll be getting a mat though.


Found this http://m.globalindustrial.com/m/g/janitorial-maintenance/mats-carpets/anti-static/esd-anti-static-mats-conductive-carpets

And this http://www.amazon.com/Wearwell-Diamond-Plate-Conductive-Electronic-High-Voltage/dp/B004E10VWI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1377443472&sr=8-1&keywords=Esd+floor+mat Edited August 25, 2013 by Batman

[BigK]

Glad to hear it wasn't worse and that it sounds like there's no permanent damage. 

[smopoim86]

Anti static devices are all about having everything you are working with at the same potential. Devices sold as anti static are unnecessary. Just like when working on a computer an anti static wrist strap is unnecessary if you make sure you touch the case before touching components. 

 

Something as simple as a metal mat on the table that you touch before you touch cartridges on it would work. It would be beneficial to tie it to an earth ground to know you are at 0 potential rather than you and your mat being at the same potential but not at 0.

 

 

oops, kinda geeked out there for a sec. 

 

I've seen the videos with the guy dumping static into the powder and it not doing anything. I'd like to see the same test with a primer. I don't think the powder is what was set off by static. I'd bet if it was static, the primer is what was set off by static. I may have to get out the high voltage supply and test some primers. 

[mikegideon]

One of the electrical experts can jump in here, but I think you also need to be grounded to discharge any static electricity.

 

It doesn't have to be ground, just makes it more convenient. If you want to totally eliminate the possibility of a static discharge, it's common to use a wire. Last time I was in a static controlled area, they handed me disposable wrist strap with a wire for connection to the work surface. I work with static sensitive stuff all the time. I just make sure I touch everything and discharge any static before I touch the sensitive device. 

Edited August 25, 2013 by mikegideon

[mikegideon]

 

I've seen the videos with the guy dumping static into the powder and it not doing anything. I'd like to see the same test with a primer. I don't think the powder is what was set off by static. I'd bet if it was static, the primer is what was set off by static. I may have to get out the high voltage supply and test some primers. 

 

Bear in mind, this was black powder. I don't know if you can set off smokeless powder that way. Even if you could, it would have just flashed instead of going bang.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Dang, if one round would do that, imagine if the sparks and hot shrapnel had set off all the loaded cases in the tray?

[GlockSpock]

Today while performing routine maintenance on my carry piece, while handling the previously chambered round I thought back to this story. That made me conclude that if a spark did indeed set the round off, it must have ignited the powder first instead of the primer. Otherwise I think we'd also set off a lot of live rounds (blackpowder or smokeless) by igniting the primer. 

 

Thoughts?

[East_TN_Patriot]

I too have learned something.  Glad you weren't more seriously injured. I've been planning to get a mat for my reloading bench anyhow, so I will take a look at one of those ESD mats.  I don't load black powder, but it sure couldn't hurt things plus I do some of my own computer repairs.  Unless they are outrageously expensive, it will probably be worth the cost.

[smopoim86]

Some reading on this
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

This guy shows putting a good bit of static through black powder. I wonder if there is any difference between brands of powder.

Smokeless powder is about impossible to set of by accident. This is one of the reasons I leave BP alone.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4

[Wingshooter]

Well, this is kind of cool... I was just looking at my reloading bench area. It's in a room with a concrete floor. I have always used a rug there that was left at my house by the previous owner when we moved in. I was curious, so I just flipped it over. It has a rubber backing with "staticstopper" printed on it. So at least I looked like I knew what I was doing even if that rug was there by accident :)

[mikegideon]

Well, this is kind of cool... I was just looking at my reloading bench area. It's in a room with a concrete floor. I have always used a rug there that was left at my house by the previous owner when we moved in. I was curious, so I just flipped it over. It has a rubber backing with "staticstopper" printed on it. So at least I looked like I knew what I was doing even if that rug was there by accident :)

 

Just realize that it may help keep you from scuffing up a good charge while you're standing there, it probably would have done nothing to prevent Electric Dave from damn near blowing off his fingers. I'm just gonna stay away from black powder.

[R_Bert]

Now....

 

How does Triple Seven rate in sensitivity?  Just about got me afraid of muzzle loader supplies...

[crashgordan]

i am learning a lot...  mostly that i don't know what i don't know

[mikegideon]

Now....

 

How does Triple Seven rate in sensitivity?  Just about got me afraid of muzzle loader supplies...

 

Don't know about substitutes. I do know... back in my high school days, we used to make little bombs out of black powder, because they didn't need much of a pressure vessel. If you could hold it together and manage to light it, it was gonna go bang. Smokeless powder, even flake, was useless for those kind of antics.

[Wingshooter]

Just realize that it may help keep you from scuffing up a good charge while you're standing there, it probably would have done nothing to prevent Electric Dave from damn near blowing off his fingers. I'm just gonna stay away from black powder.

I agree with ya. Except I thought it was "Danger Dave"

[leroy]

Before everybody gets too jumpy and throws "the baby out with the bathwater" so to speak; just take the time to remember that the minutemen, the british, the mountain men, the buffalo hunters, naval gunners, army cannoners, road builders, the quarrymen, and the miners everywhere (....and everybody else that shot or blasted anything...) handled black powder to do it with until well into the first 1/3 of the twentieth century.  Havin said that; I'm convinced that esd probably set this charge off; but ive got no way of knowing that for sure.  

 

Ya need to use metal (...brass, non sparking....) tools to reload black powder with; along with a real good look at seeing to it that there is no potential source of electric charge near (...rugs, plastic tools handling powder, plastic loading blocks, cel phones, electric motors, ect, etc -- ya get the picture...) and that everything you use is non-sparking or grounded if the rounds (...or powder containers...) sit on it . 

 

Blasting regulations with all kinds of powder (...black and otherwise...) have always cautioned about lightning and electrostatic discharge when handling and loading explosives (...black powder is an explosive... Smokeless powder is a flammable solid...).  Electrical sparks (...big or little...) can set this stuff off; as can a pretty good blow (...shock as with a hammer blow...) to the powder itself.  Dont be dragged off into the woods by some yahoo on youtube sayin that electric sparks wont set off black powder.  Rules for handling black powder and explosives are "written in blood".  That means that researching catastrophes and  confabulations (...after burying the dead and tending to the maimed...) caused these "rules" to be known and adopted.

 

Being careful is the watchword with all reloading; and is doubly true when handling black powder, dynamite, or anything else that can set ya on fire or blow ya up. 

 

Remember, on balance, the most dangerous thing that ya handle with reloading is the primer.  It explodes from a relatively light physical blow.  

 

Look carefully at everything ya do... .   There is a place right up the road from our location where a genuine loss of life tragedy happened from what was suspected to be an esd.  The place wuz the Pyro Shows fireworks fab facility.   These guys were (...and are...) world class pros that make their living by handling black powder by the ton.   Accidents happen from the most innocent of actions or from overlooking of hazards that are sitting in front of ya. 

 

This is a double lesson.... . One in thankfulness that Dave wasn't hurt any more that he was; and the other in that things can happen very unexpectedly and that the source of the confabulation can be relatively minor; even undetectable.

 

Be watchful... .  Be careful.... .

 

leroy

[mikegideon]

I agree with ya. Except I thought it was "Danger Dave"

 

Not if he's shooting sparks out of his fingers :)

[DaveS]

This guy shows putting a good bit of static through black powder. I wonder if there is any difference between brands of powder.

Smokeless powder is about impossible to set of by accident. This is one of the reasons I leave BP alone.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4

He was conducting the experiment with the powder on a grounded piece of metal. What difference would that make? I have no clue. Now, lets look at the new "electro muzzleloaders". They are fired by a single tiny spark produced by elect arc same as an igniter on a gas grill. So I don't know about that dude's experiment, seems flakey to me. I don't believe I'll cash his check!

 

Dave

[Guest tdoccrossvilletn]

Re read my post. "I" don't know what happened...the "SD" suggested static electricity. As of this moment, I still don't know what happened! I will soon find out though.

Dave

Maybe since you "don't really know what happened" Maybe, just Maybe nothing really happened and this is all a dream.

Sent from my mind using ninja telepathy.

[vontar]

Holy smokes! Glad it wasn't any worse. I don't currently reload, but I do appreciate you sharing your story. I would have never thought about the possibility of static electricity causing an issue. 

 

Here's to hoping for a swift recovery.  :cheers: 

 

I mirror the above.

 

Dam, looks painful.  Thanks for sharing as I am not into reloading yet, I have been considering it.

 

When I started PC repair I was hugh on using those anti static wrist straps connected to the PC and after a while like most people I quit using them and still to this day never had a problem related to static.

 

However, when I start reloading, I will heed your advice.